I think the purpose can vary. Taking your shirt off can make you harder to grab for sure. It’s also a form of posturing and intimidation.
If I think back to the last fight I was in where I took off my shirt, the reasons were clear. I didn’t want to rip my awesome Hypercolor T-shirt because my mom would have been really mad if I damaged it.
Semi-related funny story from the point of view of a “bouncee”. My college roommate, his best friend and I were being “asked to leave” one of the infamous strip clubs of Atlanta. The friend and I knew it was time to call it a night, but the roommate was really feeling his liquor and started to square up with the bouncer. The bouncer, while not removing his shirt, did have suspenders that he felt he should slip off his shoulders. With what really did feel like blinding speed (maybe the booze enhanced the effect?) he slipped his hands inside the suspenders and moved his arms apart very quickly and they slipped off effortlessly. My roommate decided to match this show of skill and masculinity by removing his denim jacket. As soon as his arms were behind him in the jacket, the bouncer drilled him twice in the face, breaking his nose. Mission accomplished and we left.
Classic!
In all seriousness, that bouncers hands seemed (at least to drunk me) VERY fast!
He was obviously ready for some violence. Drunk people, especially REALLY drunk people, often telegraph their movement pretty obviously and much slower than they realize.
I’m not a high level guy, but you really do get something of a Neo in The Matrix effect going on when training and experience start to accumulate. Drunk and aggressive people leave all kinds of barn doors wide open. Big, obvious openings to exploit.
Like tying your own hands behind your back when you’re starting a fight.
Lol… Not really. Turns out high and mentally ill people are occasionally naked in inappropriate venues. Then the police show up. Also, grappling with naked/semi-naked 20 something females is not as much fun as many guys think. It’s super uncomfortable and a recipe for complaint.
(long post, apology in advance)
So my wife and I attended the Advanced Covert Pistol 2-day course this weekend, put on by Handgun Combatives (Dave Spaulding) at Boondocks FTA near Jackson, MS (not sure what the FTA stands for). Dave is a great instructor, funny guy with tons of experience as a LEO. Like most instructors I’ve ever read/watched video of, he is fairly opinionated on many topics. A lot of his opinions were really more common sense than anything, though he did make a few comments that I (and the guy next to me) didn’t necessarily agree with. Nothing that would change my opinion of him as an instructor, just things that I don’t necessarily agree with, or things which are more situational than he made it sound.
Boondocks is a pretty decent facility, though I was a little thrown by their range set up. They had two short ranges facing each other (as in, firing lines facing each other) separated by a 20 foot berm. Now, from anywhere on either range, getting a round over the berm onto the next range would be pretty hard (nigh impossible), but… Maybe 50 yards behind the firing line of our range was the dirt road we used to enter and exit the range with our vehicles. A few hundred yards farther back (I am guessing at that distance), stands the classroom and pro shop buildings, along with another parking lot for those. There is, of course, a fairly densely wooded area in the intervening spaces, but still. While the berm would stop pretty much anything being used on those ranges, if someone were to put a round or two over the berm, there’s no guarantee those trees are going to stop it before impacting the other buildings, or God forbid the highway which is a bit farther back. Maybe just the military side of me, but every US military range has a sizeable impact zone behind the target area (as in, 50% farther than the maximum range of the largest caliber being used on that range) regardless of berm. But I digress.
The class itself was very good. We were told to bring minimum 800 rounds, and between the two days (and night shoot, which was an added bonus not usually included in ACP) I expended over 900 rounds. My wife and the guy next to me went through a bit less, but they were both using single stack 1911 pistols. A good amount of shooting with out being excessive, in my opinion. I’ve heard of courses that go through close to 1000 per day, which I have to question. Repetition is how you ingrain a new skill, but if volume is that high, I have to question how much of that repetition is quality and how much is just throwing lead downrange. Everyone has a saturation point for practicing a new skill in one session, and beyond that point performance begins to degrade at a fairly decent rate. So now instead of ingraining a newly learned skill properly, you are reinforcing bad habits – either reverting to old ones, or creating new ones. But again, I digress.
While the title of the course has ‘Advanced’ in it, a lot of what we did was really just basics, or fundamentals (Dave calls them essentials). Dave covered the different options for concealed carry (IWB, OWB, behind the hip, appendix, abdominal – he was adamantly opposed to the Sonny Crockett shoulder holster), and then we had the opportunity to try whichever ones we wanted. I have been carrying behind the hip for years, so I stuck with that. I do plan on picking up a good appendix or abdominal rig and trying it out, as the draw from appendix or abdominal is faster by a decent margin – it’s just not as comfortable to me.
After covering the different carry locations, he went over the different methods of garment removal (not stripping, LOL, moving the shirt enough to expose the pistol as part of the draw), working from both open front and closed front shirts. I typically carry in as little as a t-shirt, so trying the different methods actually changed the way I had been doing it. We also went over the different ready positions and when each would be appropriate.
The night portion consisted of a very brief class (Dave has an entire course for low light and dark shooting, so this was just a little taste) on the different options for operating the light and gun in tandem. We did not use weapon mounted lights at all in this, as he wanted to ‘force’ us through the different handheld light positions. Bottom line – they all suck, but some suck less. Best compromise for EDC would be a weapon mounted light, used in concert with a handheld. Use the handheld for searching or illuminating an area, then switch to the gun (and mounted light) if a threat becomes apparent.
We spent a little time on unconventional shooting positions – shooting from seated, flat on your back, and fetal position on each side. While most of us would rather not shoot from any of those positions, there is always the possibility that you might be forced into it, so it’s a good idea to at least familiarize yourself with each of the positions and what comes with them.
I’m obviously glossing over some details, and probably forgetting some others. Since Dave makes his living doing this, I don’t want to infringe on that. Bottom line – it was a great course, and I have to agree with Idaho’s assessment…if you have limited ‘throwaway’ money, spending your training budget on one of Dave’s courses is a great way to get maximum bang for your buck.
I will throw out a couple drills Dave uses, as I’m pretty sure he got them from other people (I know he said exactly that with a couple of them). Each morning as a warm up, he had us do a 3-round fade drill. Start at the 3 yard line, draw and slow-fire 3 rounds into a 3x5 card on the target backer. After each string of 3 rounds, you move farther back (or, fade) – 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, 20, 25. No time limit on each string of 3, intent being to work on sight picture, accuracy (try to stay in the card), and trigger reset – allow the trigger to reset during recoil and follow through (without slapping – takes some getting used to; still need to work on it) so as the sights arrive back on target you are ready to fire again (if necessary).
From the holster: 5 rounds in 5 seconds inside a 3x5 card, at 5 yards. We did this a few times till everyone found the proper cadence to get all 5 in the allotted time. Then, we moved back to 25 yards and did the same thing – again, trying to keep all 5 shots in the card. I did decent, though I did throw a couple outside the card (think I only threw 1 or 2 the second time).
Final drill (competition, but a drill I intend to work on): 2 x 2 x 2 drill, which he originally got from Shaw’s (Mid-South), but they called it ‘Skill On Demand’. At 20 feet, from the holster concealed (almost all of our shooting was from the holster concealed): 2 rounds in 2 seconds, inside the 3x5 card. This is a competition, and each shooter gets one chance (thus the ‘on demand’). Dave used to give away challenge coins to those who could do it, then he got hooked up with a guy who makes belts and buckles. So now Dave gives the winners a belt buckle, which you then mail to the guy who made it (forget who it was), and he makes you a nylon belt to go with it and sends it back – only thing the winner pays for is the postage to send in the buckle. I snagged on my shirt, got one round in the card and one out, with a time of 2.86. Only one guy did it, and his two shots were damn near keyholed with a time of 1.97.
Makeup of the class (16 total): military – me (retired squid), guy next to me (retired warrant officer and former SF), my wife (former Navy), and an active duty Army E8 (Cav Scout, the guy who won the 2x2x2). A Baptist minister, two doctors, and I’m not sure what everyone else did. My wife and I are in our early 40’s, and the majority of the class were older than us, some by quite a bit – oldest was 72. Then there was the guy I started calling tactical Tommy. He was wearing 5.11 pants, but just sneakers and a hoodie (from another training site). Day 1, he was wearing two guns – one behind the hip, one appendix. He would switch back and forth between which one he was drawing at a whim, and if one ran dry he would literally throw it on the ground and draw the other rather than reload – even if it was his Glock with an RMR on it. Day 2, he was (and I am not joking, not even a little) wearing 4 guns. That I know of. Two appendix, and two over the hip – two right and two left. He probably would have worn more if he had the real estate. We were split into two relays (to make it easier for Dave to give each shooter some personal attention, as required; and to give us room to move), so we would be sitting back behind the other relay reloading our mags while they were shooting. Tactical Tommy threw his Glock/RMR on the ground again, and I called it the Tactical Toss. One of the older gentlemen in the course, as nonchalantly as you can imagine, says, ‘That’s the New York reload.’ We laughed our asses off at that one.
It was obvious Tommy had been to a lot of courses (or watched a lot of YT videos, we weren’t sure), because he did all the stuff the gurus say you’re ‘supposed’ to do. If he was shooting and had to clear a malfunction (which he did a lot, both on the .22 he used most of the time, and the RMR Glock), he would take a tiny step to the side as he was doing it. A tiny step, not a normal step, or anything that would get him out of the supposed line of fire. Just enough movement to say he moved. His weapon manipulation was great – we were pretty sure he spends hours doing them in front of the mirror. But his draw was very mechanical. Appendix draw: grab shirt and lift to expose the pistol. Slight pause. Draw pistol, release shirt, support hand meets pistol in front of chest. Slight pause. Punch out to full extension. Pause. Fire. Every. Pause. Single. Pause. (clear malfunction, tiny step to the left). Time. It got to the point that even Dave made a couple comments towards the end today. Nothing directly at him, just little comments referencing one of the tacticool things Tommy was doing, who came up with them, and why they were a waste of time.
So, to recap this novel: great course, lots of good information for both myself and the wife. Met some good people, planning to stay in touch with some of them. Will definitely be looking out for more of Dave’s courses, while also looking at other instructors for good stuff.
Side note: my wife was a little nervous going in, because she was expecting to be the only female – and she was. I don’t think anyone really cared, but she felt a little out of place. In the initial classroom portion (very short portion, probably 90% of time was on the range), Dave addressed her midway through his lecture “I’m really trying not to swear”. To which she laughed and said, “Oh don’t worry. I was in the Navy.” Once we were on the range, she felt even more out of place because she was not shooting well. Remember the Micro-Compact 1911 I mentioned, talking about the issues with sights and gunsmiths? Well, between all the running back and forth to gunsmiths, me being out of town for a different shooting course (for work), and then us going to Florida to see family during my son’s fall break (got back a day before heading to MS for this), she never got any range time to work out the bugs on that pistol. Note to self (and anyone else for that matter): if you are going to a shooting course that assumes you have a clue what you are doing, don’t take a gun you haven’t shot before.
I had been thinking about that fact going in, but she has a full size 1911 double stack she shoots just fine, so I knew she could handle .45. Problem is, a 3” barreled .45 shoots and handles quite a bit differently from a full frame 5” barreled .45. So, lesson learned. She reverted to her normal carry piece, a Bersa .380 and shot much better (she said she felt better overall after shooting with that, because she knows how to shoot and she didn’t want to look like the ‘clueless woman’ who ate up all the instructor’s time). The guy next to me (retired warrant/former SF dude), then offered (and produced) a Springfield EMP for her to shoot on day 2 (today). The EMP is basically the same gun as her Springfield Micro-Compact 1911, except it’s in 9mm instead of .45 – much easier for her (or anyone, for that matter) to manage. And in other news, it looks like I just inherited a Micro-Compact 1911, and my wife is looking to buy an EMP 9mm.
Thanks for checking in , Brother, was getting worried about you. Good training means good luck, so , I hope the selection is fast. Nice shooting, especially with what you are forced to carry.
Holy hell, I cannot believe that is your issued duty pistol. That is one of the worst handguns ever made, lousy, lousy trigger, too much travel during reset and just plain hard to find any comfortable hold. I was once required to carry a 4506. That handgun was only good to beat in a nail or use as a boat anchor. Damn, I thought these guns were extinct, you have my sympathies.
Probably a Webley revolver with your forward thinking administration.
Thank you for the information and I am relived the course was still excellent. ever since you said you were going, I was worried the course had changed. Nothing worse than recommending something to someone and it turn out to be shit.
Why is it , that ever class you attend always has at least one idiot? You could go to a training class on how to take out the garbage and you would find one there.
Great post, thanks.
Point shooting is not a particularly difficult task, but to execute it correctly a subconscious grasp of marksmanship fundamentals must be achieved first. If this has been done, there’s a simple way to master point shooting in a training environment. Determine where your maximum distance is and close the gap accordingly to a distance where you can hit the target without using the sights intentionally. Now repeat the process with training to a point where you subconsciously grasp that known distance on the fly. When point shooting, always aim center mass and keep your eyes up — on the threats around you. The true benefit is having better situational awareness due to the lack of sight fixation; tunnel vision can still occur (especially those who have less “experience”) so keep your head (or eyes) on a swivel.
If you’re having a hard time grasping the concept, try this: Point your finger at a door in your house, do it from various distances. I bet you can do it every time centered on the door from a particular range. Same concept but instead you are using a gun.
After you master the fundamentals, I agree you should schedule training time shooting on the range at three feet or less. I prefer training at contract range, drawing from the holster, locking the elbow into your side and firing while your attacker is trying to kill you at bad breath range. This training is invaluable for LEO’s because they are constantly in range of citizens inside the 4 foot circle.
I have been on the scene of several shootings, where the attack was so sudden, the LEO had only time to draw and fire, in my experience, they were usually misses, with the bullets ended up in places you did not want them to be. Practice point shooting, but, practice the art of getting someone off of you more.
Training:
heavy bag, speed bag, martial arts katas.
Question of the day:
How many of these skills do you know?
Thought for the day:
“That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or laborer’s cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.”
George Orwell, author of ‘Nineteen Eighty Four’, in a 1941 article.
With the holiday season approaching, it is time to review some active shooter information. Jeff Gonzales is a former SEAL, who now has his own training company. This 10 minute video has some good basic information for you and your family, especially if you are carrying concealed.
training: deadlifts and Krav Maga.
Question of the day:
Have you discussed and active shooter plan with your family?
I originally posted this in the “things that piss you off thread,” but it felt fitting to throw in here as well. Anyone here had similar issues?
"While on the topic of things that Piss Me Off, Irresponsible gun owners. More specifically, people who are irresponsible around kids. Even more specifically, my wife’s uncle.
The guy is a pretty high level salesman at a fairly reputable tactical firearm accessories company. He spends most of his time traveling around the country, selling sights, mounts, or some other firearm piece to various police and military units. Mainly catering to SWAT and Special Ops type stuff. He gets to do all the tactical shooting courses, knows guys from Spec Ops of every different branch, honestly a pretty cool job.
But the guy is a freaking tool, and is going to get someone hurt. His house is a freaking mess, with guns, knives, and tomahawks just littered around everywhere. He has easily north of 40 firearms in the house, maybe 15 in a safe. Shelves with half empty mags, holsters, sights, like the worlds most dangerous military surplus store. I first met him when I was 16, and I saw a loaded AR-15 just leaning against the coach. He had two three year olds at the time. When I asked him if he was concerned about it, his response was “no, they know not to touch my guns. Besides, they arent strong enough to rack the bolt anyway.”
His kids are growing up now, and I pray he has started to use at least a little common sense. I spoke to his wife about it at the time, but I haven’t been back to their house in years now, no idea if anything has actually changed. Tacti-cool guys like him, who wear $200 combat pants for a damn trip to target, but have never actually spent a day in uniform, just leave a bad taste in my mouth."
Thought for the day:
Yes, I agree and had my share of encounters. It reminds of some type of costume setting and individuals wanting to play dress up. There are a vast majority of idiots everywhere, including walking into a coffee shop and 4 guys are sitting around a table wearing gi’s. Professionalism should be your goal in everything you do.
This explains it better than me:
In today’s world promoted through social media, are the “glory,” “cool-ness,” “badassery,” of combat. The normalization and monetization of combat and it’s perception of intrinsic attributes, falsely romanticizes it’s reality. We sexualize its nature through “Gun Bunnies,” Some hot girl that can “run” a gun, or empty a magazine, giving pointers or tips on shooting, while wearing next to nothing, in cool gear with dirt covered skin and bloody wounds looking like a warrior.
For those that have been in true combat, have spilled the blood of another human being. Have held another man as he bleeds out in your hands in some god-forsaken place. All the high-speed sneakers, patches, beards, YouTube videos, paper targets, and tough talk mean absolutely nothing.
The truth is that War, Combat, and all that it is, can only truly be understood by those who have witnessed it first hand. For those that have, it is an experience that will never leave you. It is forever.
Training:
range work, band work, and wheelbarrow farmers walks:
Question of the day:
Are you training to meet this threat?
Thought for the day:
“we did that yesterday” is a common statement heard during a training session lasting more than 3 days. Never ceases to amaze me that people who should know better, considered a technique learned by just running the motions several times. Don’t fall into the trap of believing you are better than you are.
Public service announcement:
PatMac has started a new series on his IG page called “Basic Dude Stuff”. He will be doing a post every Wednesday. Notice the knot tying. This is what I basically envisioned with the Question of the Day. If you have time, check it out. I personally find Pat funny as hell, but, that’s just because I have met him several times and have a sense of his personality.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B3sPiFsDLgf/
Question of the day:
I don’t know if any of you rifle hunt, but, the firearms season for deer is opening in most southern states this weekend. Have you done a safety check both on you rifle and your clothing? Wear you blaze orange or whatever is legal in your state. Hunting season is like a training class, there is always one idiot somewhere.
Watched that video clip, he cracks me up. Would love to do another Dave Spaulding class, but since most of his stuff seems to be well out of driving range for me, thinking Pat Mac might be my next one.
My personal goal is to do the Bill Rogers course. I mentioned it to Dave, and his eyes almost glazed over. “That’s a nut dragger.” was his comment, if I recall. “I did it when I was much younger. Don’t think I could do it now.” There’s a guy about 30 minutes from me, Ronnie Dodd, who is one of Bill’s instructors. He does a ‘Bill Rogers lite’ type course, 3-day instead of 5 day. Thinking after some solid pistol work (had some glaring holes illuminated at Dave’s) I’ll hit Ronnie’s course as a status check before going for Bill’s full course.
Speaking of pistol work:
Everyone wants to learn the advanced techniques, the secret sauce. “Teaching the same techniques used by Navy SEALs, Army SF, and Delta Force Ninja Snipers!”
What is advanced? Advanced just means you can execute the fundamentals (or as Dave calls them, the essentials) on demand, every time without fail. Advanced is practicing the fundamentals until they are so ingrained you don’t have to run the mantra through your head ‘target, front sight, breathing, slack, squeeeze, recoil, follow through, reset, sight picture, ec.’ It just happens. Kind of like the old saying, ‘professionals train till they get it right, champions train till they can’t get it wrong’. Or something like that.
So don’t worry about advanced. Learn the basics, the fundamentals, the essentials. Learn them, and then practice them the right way every time until you don’t even think about it, they just happen. Takes a lot of repetition, but if you want to be ‘advanced’, that’s what it takes. ‘Practice makes perfect’, remember that one? Correction. ‘Perfect practice makes perfect’. Going through the motions doesn’t train anything other than going through the motions. When the shit hits the fan, we don’t rise to the occasion, we fall to our level of training.
‘Practice makes permanent’. A lot of people waste time burning bad reps trying to be sexy.
Haha up in the PNW a number of our mountain bike trails (legal and unsanctioned) are on public land open to hunting in the fall. Hunters usually steer clear of the zones our trails are in cause bikes scare off deer, but every once in a while we hear some jackass mag dumping nearby and you just have to trust their doing it safely. Loud wheel hubs, hoots & hollers, neon MTB jerseys, and our shuttle trucks all make it very clear we are there riding… But some folks just don’t care.
