I disagree. Even in a pop vote scenario, you arent just blindly seeking out warm bodies. The same thing matters in both ways. “Find the undecided voters.”
I think it’s usually a response to trying to determine which side has the support of more Americans. It’s kinda tell only metric that matters for that question.
Oh I know. I fully accept most Americans don’t want equal votes in a national election
My vote counts the same as every other Minnesotan’s vote. 1=1 in every state.
Yeah I know. And you know what I was really talking about.
Have a good one
Yes I do ha.
As someone who grew up in dispensationalist churches and now pursues a PhD in early Christianity, I would argue that you are correct that their interest is theological rather than political, but your characterization of pre-millennial eschatology is inaccurate. Traditional dispensationalist theology understands the book of Revelation as concerned primarily with the fate of the Jewish people, who await the fulfillment of God’s promises of land, progeny, and cultus described in the Hebrew Bible. On this view, the pre-tribulation “rapture” removes the church from the world, and God then takes Israel through a seven-year period of suffering during which a majority affirm Jesus of Nazareth as their Messiah and after which the state of Israel becomes a worldwide empire for a millennium. There are some anti-Israel, anti-Semitic elements within dispensationalism who place the rapture event at different points in the timeline and look toward the destruction of Israel, but I would argue that the majority of dispensationalists continue to assume that the reinstitution of the sacrificial cult in Jerusalem will inaugurate the end times and usher the final conversion of the majority of the Jewish people.
In short, dispensationalists do care about Israel because they view the rise of the Israeli state as a necessary precursor to the end of the world, but the majority conceive of Israel’s ultimate fate as a positive one.
EDIT: I don’t hold to this view myself, by the way. I’m just saying that this is the standard dispensationalist model.
Seven years of ‘tribulation’; convert to Christianity or else…I’m sure you’ll agree that most Israelis would beg to differ re characterizing Israel’s fate in this scenario as ‘positive.’
But I sincerely appreciate you affirming my basic point, ie, that support for Israel by American Christians’ of this sort is strategic, and derives from theological imperative rather than unconditional love of Israel.
Me and you are good, @pat…!
Positive in comparison to your construal, as you claimed that the destruction of Israel and the casting of most Jews into hell are tenets of pre-millennialism. They aren’t. We can of course agree that Israelis wouldn’t consider conversion a positive, but the question was why dispensationalists care about Israel. It’s not because they look ahead to its destruction; it’s because they look ahead to what they perceive as its golden age, the “wonders” of which are shared with the wider world.
And for the record, both Christian and Jewish faiths have long wrestled with questions of suffering, and in streams of both faiths periods of collective travail have been interpreted as necessary elements of a life in relation to the divine. Christians didn’t come up with the notion of a period of tribulation and subsequent Messianic age ; it derived from JEWISH interpretations of their sacred texts (see those in, e.g., Daniel, 4 Ezra) and was carried into Christianity by the Jewish followers of Jesus who started the Christian movement.
Two further points on the issue of tribulation and “forced” conversion. In dispensationalist theology, Israel’s suffering during the tribulation is caused by the rest of humanity, whereas the rest of humanity suffers the “wrath of God” because of their mistreatment of Israel. In that sense, the tribulation is nothing particularly new for the Jewish people; it does, however, represent God’s active hand on behalf of Israel.
With respect to “forced” conversion, in dispensationalist thought the Jews are not forced to convert; they experience an end-time revival and turn to God of their own volition. As for the rest of humanity, the question of whether conversion is “forced” is categorically irrelevant. Humanity witnesses the coming of the Messiah; a divine-human figure descends from heaven with supernatural powers. From a dispensationalist perspective, volitional belief isn’t really necessary at that point. You cannot really argue once you’ve seen the deity 
I am not trying to be pedantic or a jerk, so I hope I don’t come off as such. I respect you, EyeDentist. I simply think that too many people do not understand American fundamentalist Christianity and diagnose its problems and outlook incorrectly. It is actually a really complex belief system adhered to by many individuals with questionable hermeneutical assumptions but excellent powers of logical and ethical reasoning. They believe certain things about how to the Hebrew Bible and New Testament function as scripture, and they must reason within the boundaries of those beliefs. To construe their perspective as inherently bloodthirsty is to fall into the trap of misunderstanding that has perpetuated much of the divide between right and left in this nation.
Sorry for derailing the thread, all
I thought I read in the news somewhere that at the turn of the millenium some literalist Christians from the mid western US tried to get into Israel with smuggled guns. The idea was to instigate a gun battle that would touch off the Middle Eastern powderkeg, and then the apocalypse would be set in motion.
I posted about it a few years later when I joined my first web board, and a literalist Christian from the US said he hadn’t heard anything about it.
That’s possible, though dispensationalists tend to have a very high view of providence, in that they do not believe that human beings can rush the timeline. But there are always people who think God just needs a helping hand (e.g., the Maccabees in 2nd century B.C.E. Judea, Zealots in the 1st century C.E.).
I was just starting to read this and poof…the web Gods took it away.
I agree with this, and never meant to imply otherwise.
But some number refuse to convert and are dealt with rather harshly, yes?
Again–and forgive me for repeating myself–I never meant to imply they were, as a group, “bloodthirsty.” All I mean to say was that their support of Israel is, foundationally, utilitarian.
But not the same as every American.
He knows. EC people put some weirdly high value on ‘states rights’ that allow them to accept the lack of equality across state lines in a national election.
It’d probably put too much power in the people’s hands anyways
They better enjoy it while it lasts. When a party has to rely on the EC to win, it’s a sign that its platform is losing support. This is why the whack jobs on the left need to calm down; they are actually winning. Even if Trump puts a couple of more conservative justices on the SC it won’t matter if the country does not lean that way.
Apologies evangelical is want I meant. Wrote this up at the tail end of the day.
You are absolutely right about their belief in the destruction of Israel preceding the second coming of their messiah. I always thought regarding the Palestinian-Israeli conflict that they sided with Israel. On issues such has rocket attacks, terrorist bombings, “settlements” in Judea and Sumaria.
I would be curious to actually look at some data and see what the collective sentiment regarding Israel is amongst evangelicals.
They should support Irans nuclear program. That might be the quickest way to facilitate the destruction of Israel.
Lol you should read above. This is not correct, at least not for the majority of pre-millennialists. As I said, the good Dentist is totally correct that the concern is theological rather than political, but the theological rationale is not the belief in Israel’s impending destruction. Yes, they believe many Jews will die under persecution for their faith during the tribulation, but it is not the destruction of Israel they are anticipating; it is its exultation to authority over the world under the Messiaj
What this discussion has shown me is that the who, and who does not, support Israel is not nearly as simple as a “DEM/GOP” issue; and that what represents “support” is also not so simple.
