JD430
Saying that you follow firearms issues closely doesn’t automatically render you anymore credible either.
Being a life long hunter, If from the evidence I gathered, I thought for a minute, no make that a second, that a candidate would jeopordize my ability to own firearms they wouldn’t be getting my vote! I voted for Kerry with complete confidence.
Do I think Kerry is a bona fide hunter? No, not anymore then I think Bush is.
[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Hmm,
Let me guess, Thunderbolt, rainjack, blakjak, Zeb, WguitarG, all twenty to fifty year old white guys who think the African Dr. is full of shit… Right?
Don’t you think that is kind of revealing in a sense?
Thunder, could it be possible that instead of America revolting from a democratic party leaning left, it could be that the Republican party decided that winning at all costs is the new bar? That any decency, truth, honor, will be sacrificed in order to win?
Let’s tell hunters (of which I am one) that if you vote for Kerry, you will automatically lose your guns! Lets tell bible reading grandmothers if you vote for Kerry, you will lose your bible! Let’s tell fag-fearing homophobe’s if you vote for Kerry, fags are taking over the country! Lets tell soccer moms if you vote for Kerry, dirty bombs are going off at little Johnny’s soccer practice!
Could it be that lies and manipulations mobilized a mostly white, conservative, highly religious, part of our country to come out and vote in record numbers?
To borrow a line from a Clint Eastwood movie… Don’t piss down my back and tell me its raining!
Also, before you write off the Dem’s, we had a man in office for eight year too and just like with us, the tide will turn for you as well. [/quote]
Elkhntr1:
You should have continued!
And if Bush is elected: Let’s tell all the young people that you will be drafted! Let’s tell all of the old people that they are going to lose their social security! Let’s tell all of the minorities that republicans are racists! And on and on…
Could it be that lies and manipulations got Kerry closer than he deserved?
It’s fun to do just one side, but as always there are two sides. If you are going to air one side air them both. I have stated it before on this forum: Politics is a dirty game.
Bthe way: “20 to 50 year old white guys.” Sounds like a racist statement to me. Reverse it and see how it reads.)
Elk,
Here is a portion of John Kerry’s voting record on firearms issues:
Thats a portion. Wayne LaPierre wrote an entire book on the subject - Guns, Bush & Kerry. Its a good read and thankfully, not really that relevant now.
Kind of ridiculous to say that someone cant be more credible than you on a topic when they have evidence to back up their beliefs when you don’t.(I dare you to argue this, as trying to portray Kerry in a positive light in regards to this subject is lunacy).
The larger point was you’re intial argument was flawed because you accused the Republicans of lies and fabrications to snow voters based on false premises.
[quote]ALDurr wrote:
(3) Here’s a newsflash for you: The KKK does not vote Democrat!
[/quote]
Robert Byrd still does.
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/michelle/malkin030801.asp
…Meanwhile, author Graham Smith recently discovered another letter Sen. Byrd wrote after he quit the KKK, this time attacking desegregation of the armed forces.
The ex-Klansman vowed never to fight “with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds.”
[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Hmm,
Let me guess, Thunderbolt, rainjack, blakjak, Zeb, WguitarG, all twenty to fifty year old white guys who think the African Dr. is full of shit… Right?
Don’t you think that is kind of revealing in a sense?
[/quote]
Let’s add one more person who thinks the masterful african professor is full of shit.
He’s a law professor, a Federaliist in every sense of the word, an accomplished writer and lecturer, and - by his own admission - as black as they come.
Ever heard of a guy named Walter Williams?
You can throw your back handed racist acuusations at me all you want. But- you’ll see what you want, discount the rest, and resort to name calling when you get scared or confused.
Elk - you know nothing about where I grew up, who I grew up with, or the friends I’ve made along the way. How presumptive of you to assume anything about who I am, or how racist I may or may not be. I challenge you to find anything I’ve posted that could possibly be construed as racist. I know you are above this kind of bullshit, and so do you.
Elk,
“Let me guess, Thunderbolt, rainjack, blakjak, Zeb, WguitarG, all twenty to fifty year old white guys who think the African Dr. is full of shit… Right?”
And I suspect there are many twenty to fifty year old white guys who agree with the African Doctor - what’s the point?
“Don’t you think that is kind of revealing in a sense?”
It reveals that we don’t buy yet another conspiracy theory.
“Thunder, could it be possible that instead of America revolting from a democratic party leaning left, it could be that the Republican party decided that winning at all costs is the new bar? That any decency, truth, honor, will be sacrificed in order to win?”
Ok, so show me where decency, truth, and honor have been sacrificed in the name of getting Bush elected. A $100 million grossing mythodrama designed in a way that would make Goebbels proud? The efforts of mainstream media to try and support their candidate when they should be neutral observers? The situational morality embraced by the Left? I’m not suggesting the GOP are paladins, but if it’s champions of virtue you’re after, you won’t find it in the current hysteria of the Left.
“Let’s tell hunters (of which I am one) that if you vote for Kerry, you will automatically lose your guns…”
See Zeb’s excellent reply.
“Could it be that lies and manipulations mobilized a mostly white, conservative, highly religious, part of our country to come out and vote in record numbers?”
This has already been debunked. While evangelicals came out and voted, so did all the other demographic sections, and Bush actually got a higher percentage bump in states that didn’t have the marriage amendment as an option - the so-called ‘evangelical lure’ to the polls.
“Also, before you write off the Dem’s, we had a man in office for eight year too and just like with us, the tide will turn for you as well.”
That’s my point - the Democrats have abandoned the lessons of Clinton. Don’t misunderstand me, I think Clinton is a self-adoring, morally inept car salesman, but he was a New Democrat and tried to instigate the Third Way in American politics via the Dems - a very shrewd move. The Democratic Party ignored that movement and decided to lurch leftward. Had they embraced Clintonian moderation, they’d be a stronger party. But for all the idol worship of Clinton, the party isn’t listening to him or using his past success as a template for the future.
The Dems can snap back, but will they? The powerful part of the Democratic Party wants to become America’s version of the European Social Democrats.
Hey, fella’s
I don’t think you are all racist, not by a long shot, but I do think being white males you do have a different perspective or prism you see things through.
JD430-
If I cared to expend the energy I’m sure I could find the shades of grey that would puncture may of your (fact finding) points. At any rate I am certain that if Kerry had won four years from now I would still be hunting with my favorite elk rifle… legally!
I don’t know if you are a hunter, but if you are what concerns me more is whether or not we are going to be able to enjoy our great outdoors after four more years with this agenda.
Thunderbolt-
I once admired your viewpoint, though I disagreed with it, but now I am starting to see that you are one of the true believers who can’t see reality if it doesn’t jive with your picture of Bush and company.
Are you seriously going to tell me that Karl Rove isn’t a master at propaganda! That through the the grape vine insidious messages weren’t sent to electrify the right!
i ran into many people who are not nearly as informed as those on these forums. Who didn’t care or know an iota about economics or the reasons or lack of for going into Iraq, but there reason for voting was they were going to lose their guns or the bible was going to be taken away!
You are always referring to the elitist left and hollywood and how out of touch they are and they want to socilize America. Well, when I was hunting this past season, I was in the San Luis valley in Colorado and the people I was with were Hispanics of Spanish descent who settled this region.
Many of the older guys were Vietnam vets. They are extremelly tough, hard working, honorable, people who were all Democrats! These weren’t Hollywood bleeding hearts, tree huggers, Ivy league professors! So, I get sick of hearing from the whining victimized Repubs how the elitists are ruining the party, if anything they are the minority of the party.
Point is, I am a Democrat and understandibly most of the people I choose to socialize with are Democrats, we are not college professor’s who think were intellectually superior, were not Hollywood actors protesting the latest in thing, were not communists wanting to make America the next Europe, we are tax paying law abiding people who care about the less fortunate and respect and want the truth, who don’t like bullshit, or rather bushshit shoved down our throats!
We’re tough people and we will survive four more years of the anti-abortionist who once paid for a girlfriends abortion, the teetotaler who had at least one DUI, the moral man who once snorted coca like it was going out of style. Funny how they painted Kerry to be so evil to the religious right when Bush was the one who had actually partaken in sin most of his life.
Enough, I’m out, Happy Thanks Giving to friends and family!
[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Point is, I am a Democrat and understandibly most of the people I choose to socialize with are Democrats, we are not college professor’s who think were intellectually superior, were not Hollywood actors protesting the latest in thing, were not communists wanting to make America the next Europe, we are tax paying law abiding people who care about the less fortunate and respect and want the truth, who don’t like bullshit, or rather bushshit shoved down our throats!
[/quote]
Yeah, but Elk… did you read the crap that African doctor was writing? Come on, dude! Just like the donkeys don’t like having themselves characterized as whiny college professors, the elephants don’t like being called hatemongering white supremacists. That is exactly what Dr. Zeleza hinted at:
[quote]Since then the Republican Party has been concentrating its appeal to whites notwithstanding periodic gestures to minorities in hotly contested districts. For its part, the Democratic Party is increasingly becoming the party of minorities.
The Republicans are better placed than the Democrats to promote both the project of white supremacy at home and imperial supremacy abroad.[/quote]
The point I’m trying to make here is that yes, we all have different viewpoints, and there is always going to be more than one way to look at things, but sometimes, some people are just full of shit. Dr. Zeleza’s article that was posted here is one such thing that is just plain wrong. Sorry. I mean, look at what the guy wrote… [quote]“the project of white supremacy”[/quote] I’m not taking that out of context, man. He referred to it like some vast conspiracy is underway to undermine any non-white race. Gimme a friggin’ break. You can say whatever you want about my lack of experience or whatever in living this life as a black man, but that has absolutely nothing to do with my ability to see some dude basically come out and say that the Repubs are nothing but a bunch of racists. Honestly, I think the elephants just need to step back for a second and tell Dr. Zeleza to take all his institutional grants and awards and go fuck himself.
70% of drug users in America are Caucasian
20% of prisoners in jail serving drug related charges are Caucasian
The possibility of this being a statistical mistake are almost nil. America remains the racist state it has been since its inception.
Flanker
Loth,
Just a question, but if you remove the political attachment and end up with something like this…
Do you honestly think that there are not groups out there that are still struggling against racial equity or harmony or whatever you want to call it?
If they are out there, where do they hide and where do they attempt to exert influence on policy or the mainstream of society, if anywhere?
Anyway, I’m not pointing fingers or anything, I’m just curious. Is organized racism over already? Is it finally dead?
[quote]vroom wrote:
Anyway, I’m not pointing fingers or anything, I’m just curious. Is organized racism over already? Is it finally dead?[/quote]
I wouldn’t say that the KKK doesn’t exist anymore. But that’s not the point here. The reason I said the Zeleza was full of shit is because he is claiming that the Republican Party is responsible for the racism. That’s just kooky. That’s like saying that the Democratic Party is responsible for people wanting abortions.
I don’t think he’s saying they are responsible for it…
I think he is saying that a long time back various groups associated with the two parties based on historical events and that the viewpoints that those groups held are still alive in some segments of voters.
When he says the republicans are better placed to effect such things, he’s saying that the groups with those viewpoints are in a better position to have an impact on republican policies.
It would be similar to saying that PETA would be in a better position to influence the democratic party than the republican party. This doesn’t mean that liberals approve of PETA either.
What he does say, which may be inflammatory and isn’t something I’m trying to say as my own opinion, is that there are religious fundamentalists which are aligned with the republican party who would be happy to undo many years of progress.
I’m no expert on what Christian fundamentalists want, but I do know they are voting primarily for the republican party these days. We’ve been discussing that very fact in these forums, with the result that liberals have been labeled God-haters, so there is not doubt on who the religious vote for.
What do these fundamentalists actually want?
What do you call this, vroom?
How is there any other way to interpret that paragraph except to say “republicans are racists?”
Elk,
“I once admired your viewpoint, though I disagreed with it, but now I am starting to see that you are one of the true believers who can’t see reality if it doesn’t jive with your picture of Bush and company.”
Too bad, since that isn’t who I am.
“Are you seriously going to tell me that Karl Rove isn’t a master at propaganda!”
Rove is a master of getting people elected. Listen, I get all the mailers the RNC sends out - I am perfectly aware of the materials and concepts they use to get their candidates elected.
My point was that you have this myopic view that the GOP are treacherous cheaters - but you can’t back up the claim. My other point was that the Dems went haywire in this election and have far more question marks on their electoral practices than do their opponents.
“i ran into many people who are not nearly as informed as those on these forums. Who didn’t care or know an iota about economics or the reasons or lack of for going into Iraq, but there reason for voting was they were going to lose their guns or the bible was going to be taken away!”
And they were probably canceled out by the folks that were told that Social Security was going to be gutted and a draft instituted.
“You are always referring to the elitist left and hollywood and how out of touch they are and they want to socilize America.”
Absolutely.
“Well, when I was hunting this past season, I was in the San Luis valley in Colorado and the people I was with were Hispanics of Spanish descent who settled this region.”
What the hell does that have to do with the elitist left and Hollywood limousine liberals?
“Many of the older guys were Vietnam vets. They are extremelly tough, hard working, honorable, people who were all Democrats! These weren’t Hollywood bleeding hearts, tree huggers, Ivy league professors!”
I don’t doubt that at all.
“So, I get sick of hearing from the whining victimized Repubs how the elitists are ruining the party, if anything they are the minority of the party.”
Hey Elk - Republicans aren’t ‘whining’ because it’s not our party. We can’t be ‘victimized’ because it’s not a disadvantage for us, Elk - quite the opposite. I suggest posting with a dictionary handy. It’s an observation, but also one done in the spirit of bipartisanship - I feel the country is better with two strong parties, rather than one.
That being said, it can’t be whining - just some friendly advice from the other side.
“We’re tough people and we will survive four more years of the anti-abortionist who once paid for a girlfriends abortion, the teetotaler who had at least one DUI, the moral man who once snorted coca like it was going out of style.”
Juvenile ad hominem claims. Elk, sometimes I wonder if you are an adult.
“Funny how they painted Kerry to be so evil to the religious right when Bush was the one who had actually partaken in sin most of his life.”
I don’t know that Kerry was painted as ‘evil’ - at least, there weren’t any newsworthy protests or concerts saying such. I am sure there was a small pocket of people who might have used that term, but I never saw it. Contrast that to the ‘Bush is evil’ approach, Elk - see that anywhere?
Secondly, I believe one reason Bush appeals to Red State America is that he doesn’t come off as a boarding school dandy - he comes across as a man who has failed in the past and who has redeemed himself. That goes over well with tough-minded people with real problems.
As for the rest, Elk - you seem to have lost sight of the original post here - what was an extreme, conspiratorial diatribe based in pure conjecture. We can talk about race politics - I personally think the GOP could do more to reach out to Blacks and exorcise the old Dixiecrat element that glommed onto the party in the 60’s - but it can’t start with the nonsense spewed forth by the author of the original piece above.
I think if he wanted to say “republicans are racist” he would simply say it. There are indeed a lot of racial feelings or codes in America. I’ve lived there too, I’ve felt it first hand. There is a divide between segments of the populace.
Is it or is it not true that those with racist tendencies appreciate the dismantlement of quotas and other “reverse discrimination” practices? Which party has the most proponents for this type of activity?
The reasons that conservatives are in favor of these steps need not be racism, but for some who simply agree and go with the flow (like my ex’s father), I suspect it is. These people aren’t conservatives with a capital C, they just are comfortable with the direction.
It’s a tough issue to discuss without people getting their noses out of joint. I don’t want to call anyone a racist but there are a lot of them out there. Pretending it doesn’t exist and pretending they don’t favor one party is not a helpful viewpoint.
It would be like trying to disclaim groups like PETA being predominantly liberal. Different types of whacko’s migrate to the right or to the left, and it is a fact of life. That doesn’t make being on the right or the left an instant inclusion in the mindset of the whackos.
Both sides have dirty laundry. Maybe it should be aired out?
vroom:
vroom stated: “Is it or is it not true that those with racist tendencies appreciate the dismantlement of quotas and other “reverse discrimination” practices? Which party has the most proponents for this type of activity?”
Wow…are you ever off base with this one! I am against quotas, not because I am a racist. I don’t have one racist bone in my body. I am against quotas because we should all be equal in this country. Yet, how can we be when there are special classes of people with “super rights?”
I had a business and in that particular store were a White manager and an African American assistant mgr. (among others). The black assistant mgr. stole $1,500 from the store. Upon questioning from the store manager he admitted he took the money. He stated that he needed it as he was behind on bills. I did not have him prosecuted as I felt sorry for him. Instead, he was promptly fired by that manager. The African American then paid most of the stolen money back (the part he did not yet spend). Should have been the end of the story…not in the land of the “Super rights.”
The African American showed up at my office door with a free legal aid lawyer two weeks later. The lawyer threatened to charge discrimination and sue. It seems that the man had second thoughts and decided that he wasn’t guilty after all.
Long story short: We had to refund this man the money that he stole from us. If not it would have cost me thousands in legal fees (while his legal fees are free) in order to fight it in court.
How could they charge racisim? I hired the man myself! If I was a racist why would I hire him? Is it unreasonable to want to fire an admitted thief?
I have had white people steal as well. I am making no racist remark stating that all black people steal, that would be ridiculous. However, how can anyone run a business (or a country) where one race has such favor from the courts?
Same with college admission testing and state exams. Why should a white person be kept out of a job who is more qualified than an African American? And who in fact scores 10 to 15 points higher on a test?
Is this supposed to be some sort of punishment for slavery? Seriously, I don’t get it. I am for equality for all races. Why can’t we simply do away with favoring any one person over another because of race?
If this is not “reverse discrimination” I don’t know what is.
I honestly think you have to go out in the real world for a while and experience a situation or two before you can really judge for yourself.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Is it or is it not true that those with racist tendencies appreciate the dismantlement of quotas and other “reverse discrimination” practices? Which party has the most proponents for this type of activity?[/quote]
A square is a rhombus, but a rhombus isn’t always a square. Racists are against quotas, but not all those opposed to quotas are racist.
You are are joining in with the elitists when you assume that the only folks that are capable of racism is 20-50 year-old WHITE males.
The evil white man didn’t invent racism. Go to El Paso, TX and see if Hispanic to anglo racism doesn’t slap you in the face.
[quote]
It’s a tough issue to discuss without people getting their noses out of joint. I don’t want to call anyone a racist but there are a lot of them out there. Pretending it doesn’t exist and pretending they don’t favor one party is not a helpful viewpoint.[/quote]
Pretending that the WASP male is the only organism on the planet capable of racism is just as wrong as pretending racism doesn’t exist.
I would argue that the author of the article referenced at the start of this thread is every bit as racist against whites as he seems to imply the whites of being against blacks. Is this acceptable to you?
I find it very hypocritical to whip out the race card and assume it has only one side.
If you could get everyone to come to the table and be honest about their own prejudices, maybe progress could be made by airing laundry. But there are as many agendas on the left as there are on the right, and honesty really doesn’t come into play when discussing what has become a political football.
Zeb,
You are clueless as ever. In no way am I saying that everyone who is against quotas is racist. No wonder you keep thinking I’m some type of radical ultra-liberal, you have no idea what I’m saying do you?
Rainjack,
No need to get your nose out of joint either.
Why are some of you folks so damned hypersensitive about this. You’d think I was trying to label you with a negative tag or something. Not like I’ve ever been labelled with negative tags around here.
Anyway, I’m not. Neither am I claiming that racism is a one way street. Neither am I claiming that there aren’t hispanics that are racist.
My experience is a little wider than most, I’ve seen racism towards black men from white men, towards white men from black men, towards white men from hispanic men and towards hispanic men from white men. I’ve seen it. This is hardly the issue at hand.
Are you folks able to get past the specifics of whatever bugaboo’s you have and fears of being labelled a racist? I’m trying to discuss the issues raised by the author, not proposing they are correct or that anybody or any group in particular is racist.
When you can figure that point out, come on back and participate in a constructive conversation. Suspend disbelief and consider the viewpoint of the author and whether or not the correlations described may appear correct from the authors viewpoint. Not my viewpoint. Not your viewpoint.
You don’t have to believe something or believe that it is correct in order to consider it, weight it and analyze it.
I wasn’t referring to you, vroom - and my nose, while quite cavernous, is still right where it started out. I was talking about the author of the article.
Why is it that when someone on the right calls bullshit on an elitist from the left, our noses have to be out of shape, were angry, or we suffer from mental imbalance?
Is it only the left that is allowed to see injustice? Which brings me back to a satement I made earlier: Why is it that the left has ordained themselves as the arbitors of open-mindedness?