The Real Victims of Katrina

Headhunter · December 7, 2005, 1:57pm

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I think you are spouting mostly bullshit. Yes, I do think individuals should take more personal responsibility, however, do I see a reason to avoid helping the victims of these storms through higher taxes? No, I don’t. They need help. It doesn’t bother me in the least.

Speaking about bullshit, Prof, you should know more about that than anyone.

As for the rest, why is their need a claim on your earnings? You’re certainly free to help all you want. Do you want your moral purity ‘tainted’ because you were forced, via taxation?
What I am saying is: by all means help those in need. But when someone CLAIMS my earnings as their due, as their right, then THEY are speaking bullshit. They are functioning at the level of parasites and I will resist that.

Exactly…so I hope you aren’t burdening the rest of society with your car and health insurance. I know you would never take part in such a potentially parasitic activity.

Answer, don’t evade. You are a doctor. You have more than most. According to the ethics of Parasitism, you can and should be forced to help those of lesser ability and more need. Remember, need comes first, no matter who actually earned the money, worked hard, and so forth. Answer the question, Prof.

No one is evading your question. It has been answered but let’s make it extra clear for you. You wrote:
As for the rest, why is their need a claim on your earnings? You’re certainly free to help all you want. Do you want your moral purity ‘tainted’ because you were forced, via taxation?

My “moral purity” isn’t tainted at all. I have no problem with helping these people and I believe a society to only function if there is a sense of unity. Otherwise, you get anarchy. I am for helping these people. I am wondering how a man who is a teacher, one of the lesser financially rewarding careers, is so against helping others. What exactly is your cut off point? How about the students in your classes? Are they too old to get some help if needed? If one of your students came to school regularly and never had lunch, would you even help them get on the assisted meal plan…or would you consider this the action of a parasite?
[/quote]

You’re not reading, Prof X. I am glad to help, but forcing me to help is immoral. If someone wishes to help someone, that’s fine. You seem to mix up benevolence with altruism. They are not the same. Altruism says that you are morally required to help the less-fortunate. They have a moral claim against you, because you are smarter, wealthier, and so forth.

I voluntarily took this job. In exchange for money and the joy of my work, I get to teach and I love it. If I were ordered by a bureaucrat to teach, I’d disappear into the forest. It’s that simple. So, I’d help any student. That’s the job I voluntarily took. The analogy with the New Orleans people and my job is not logical. They demand my money, and get government to take it (which is the only way they would).

ALDurr · December 7, 2005, 3:41pm

[quote]bklewis wrote:
C’mon guys…you’ve got to be kidding. I’m from New Orleans and I had several (15 folks) of my family come to live with me in Alabama after the hurricane.

I guess people really don’t get it. This was a natural disaster. Saying people knew it was going to happen so they should have abandoned the city years ago is stupid. How many people are fleeing California? Don’t they realize that any day now a large earthquake could make Cali an island out in the pacific. What about Florida? It’s usually the first to be hit by a hurricane. Why don’t these people move further inland?

As for gov’t assistance…if we can GIVE AWAY money to the tsumani victims in other countries why not help out fellow Americans? Forced? We are forced to pay taxes and our tax dollars are used in ways that we don’t always agree with.

Think about it…people lost homes, cars, jobs, schools, EVERYTHING. And contrary to what you see on T.V. there are folks with insurance (home owners, flood, etc) who are getting the shaft from the insurance companies.

If we can throw billions at a war to liberate Iraqis then we could pitch in (even by FORCE) to help out Americans.

Just when I think there’s hope…something like this pops up. Sad.

[/quote]

Did anyone bother to read what this person wrote about the disaster or all of you too busy bitching to each other about semantics to care? This person had some excellent points and no one is even acknowledging them. I’d like to hear what the personal-responsibility crowd and the help-the-people-in-need crowd have to say about this post.

Zap_Branigan · December 7, 2005, 4:03pm

[quote]AZMojo wrote:
…
Isn’t the government funding their own irresponsibility, since they allowed the city to be built there in the first place?
I’m confused, would you care to elaborate?

[/quote]

Who “allowed” New Orleans to be built there in the first place? It certainly wasn’t the US government. I believe it was actually the French.

The government didn’t close it down and kick everyone out before it flooded. Can you imagine the outcry if they would have decided it was too dangerous to have a city there in 1995 and forced everyone out and bulldozed it?

I am not sure what point you are trying to make, but you cannot blame the government for the location of the city.

Wreckless · December 7, 2005, 5:00pm

One question: what do you teach and where do you teach it?

harris447 · December 7, 2005, 5:22pm

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
One question: what do you teach and where do you teach it?[/quote]

And where do your students go on to mop the floors and make fries with this kind of knowledge?

AZMojo · December 7, 2005, 5:36pm

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
AZMojo wrote:
…
Isn’t the government funding their own irresponsibility, since they allowed the city to be built there in the first place?
I’m confused, would you care to elaborate?

Who “allowed” New Orleans to be built there in the first place? It certainly wasn’t the US government. I believe it was actually the French.

The government didn’t close it down and kick everyone out before it flooded. Can you imagine the outcry if they would have decided it was too dangerous to have a city there in 1995 and forced everyone out and bulldozed it?

I am not sure what point you are trying to make, but you cannot blame the government for the location of the city.
[/quote]

You kind of took that out of context. My point was to say that the government has always supported this city, just like every other American city, via federal funds for infrastructure construction, including the levies. That’s just how things work.
Much of our country is in the path of a natural disaster at some point. It would be irresponsible for our federal government to let those areas that are stricken fend for themselves, especially when insurance companies are dragging their feet with settlements.

Besides, the federal government is the one who insured the vast majority of homes in New Orleans anyway, private carriers do not offer their own flood insurance policies, they’re all funded by the federal government.

So, I guess this whole thread is kind of a moot point.

anon31651765 · December 7, 2005, 6:07pm

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

Insurance is a voluntary agreement between the two parties. But say, Prof X, since you probably have a pretty high income, shouldn’t you be forced to pay for insurance for those in need? Is your desire for, a new car for example, more important than the poor who have no insurance? Shouldn’t you drive an old beater and pay someone else’s insurance bills? Isn’t the need of those who have little a moral claim on those who have more? Aren’t you supposed to be enslaved because of your ability and intelligience, enslaved to those who have neither your intelligience or your ability? Aren’t the ambitious here to serve the needs of the lazy?

I hope everyone sees how the worship of need has infected us all. Until we expel this from our consciousness, we never will have a civilized world – just parasites and victims.
[/quote]

I hope you understand what you are saying, because you are starting to espouse very Hitlerian beliefs.

The parasites and victims? You can yap your Nietzachean wannabe quotes all you like. But put down “Twilight of the Idols” for a second and think how it would be if people were so callous to you in a tremendous tragedy.

It is sickening that you can believe that the world can actually work in the way you are describing, especially when very dew of us have had such horrendous things happen to us as what has happened in New Orleans. You mentioned something about being Irish…I hope you don’t call yourself a Catholic. If good for nothing else, religion should teach mercy, and helping those less fortunate.

And that is what these folks need- help. Not some asshole yapping online about how they are parasites.

Professor_X · December 7, 2005, 6:09pm

[quote]AZMojo wrote:

So, I guess this whole thread is kind of a moot point.

[/quote]

It is and I still don’t understand how a thread like this could even be made by a level headed adult. I don’t see how things like this:

[quote]Residents living in the 18 counties in Florida’s Panhandle, for example, received a total of $21.3 million for Hurricane Charley, according to an Orlando Business Journal analysis of statistics gathered by the state Office of Insurance Regulation.

Yet Charley’s path was 140 miles southeast of the nearest edge of the Panhandle, and some 370 miles from Escambia County, which abuts the Alabama state line.[/quote] from:
http://orlando.bizjournals.com/orlando/stories/2005/12/05/story2.html

Are overlooked so easily. Not one person has formed a rant about this kind of insurance fraud…but God forbid we help some minorities in New Orleans. This shit is disgusting, but obviously, I am just seeing things.

firemedichcfr14 · December 7, 2005, 6:32pm

[quote]Professor X wrote:
AZMojo wrote:

So, I guess this whole thread is kind of a moot point.

It is and I still don’t understand how a thread like this could even be made by a level headed adult. I don’t see how things like this:
Residents living in the 18 counties in Florida’s Panhandle, for example, received a total of $21.3 million for Hurricane Charley, according to an Orlando Business Journal analysis of statistics gathered by the state Office of Insurance Regulation.

Yet Charley’s path was 140 miles southeast of the nearest edge of the Panhandle, and some 370 miles from Escambia County, which abuts the Alabama state line. from:
http://orlando.bizjournals.com/orlando/stories/2005/12/05/story2.html

Are overlooked so easily. Not one person has formed a rant about this kind of insurance fraud…but God forbid we help some minorities in New Orleans. This shit is disgusting, but obviously, I am just seeing things.[/quote]

I wasn’t seeing things when I saw all the looting going on. I wonder where all of that stuff is today? I wonder who paid for the loss? I wonder if any one was arrested? I wonder why a guy who works hard for a living and lives in Michigan is somehow responsible for that mess?

I wonder why people think the federal government owes them something when the very leaders who were in charge at that particular place and time were ineffective?

Race_Fan · December 7, 2005, 6:47pm

[quote]firemedichcfr14 wrote:

I wonder why people think the federal government owes them something when the very leaders who were in charge at that particular place and time were ineffective?[/quote]

Why? Because our federal government has paying for most of the housing, transportation, food, etc. anyway. This is the mindset many poor people in Louisiana think.

Somebody owes me something.

Headhunter · December 7, 2005, 7:08pm

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
One question: what do you teach and where do you teach it?[/quote]

I teach Honors Physics and Calculus at a hs in northern Ohio. My wife is a professor at a nearby university and I teach part-time (for the past 9 years) at a small college. I also coach martial art at my hs, as I am 1st Dan TKD.
Many of my ideas can be found in the work of Ayn Rand, the philosopher/novelist that the libs love to hate.

Dorso · December 7, 2005, 7:10pm

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
AZMojo wrote:
Headhunter wrote:

What if I don’t want to fund other people’s irresponsibility? “Well, we’ve got guns and jails, so you’ll pay or else!” Like most liberals, since they can’t convince someone to cooperate, they resort to violence.

This is the best paragraph of your little rant.
Now it’s the LIBERALS that are using the guns and jails to forward their agenda? Politics changes so quickly these days.
Isn’t the government funding their own irresponsibility, since they allowed the city to be built there in the first place?
I’m confused, would you care to elaborate?

Hmmm… I’m telling you all to be free and I’m being attacked. Okay, cool.

Look, the philosophy of liberals has been that government should be used to solve problems. For example, LBJ’s Great Society Program. Government grows and so do its extortions. Now, would you voluntarily pay your income taxes to support this? Some would, surely. Many will not. The government then uses the threat of confiscation, jail, guns, to force those people to comply.

The former residents of New Orleans are demanding that you pay for their choice. They chose to live in a dangerous place. They gambled that the levees would hold and that they could live in a city that should actually be underwater. They were wrong. If someone decided to bet their life savings at a roulette wheel, are you responsible for them if they lose?

I don’t wish to pay for someone else’s irresponsibility. They made a choice. Now, they should have to rely on private charity for help. Their need does not give them the right to get the government to point a gun at my head.

Clear?

[/quote]

As far as I know, we still live in a representative democracy. “The Government” (please specify what you mean) does not really do much without the authority of the electorate…us. If an elected member of the federal government does something the people do not like, they elect somebody else and the system will slowly change, as it did between LBJ and Reagan. So to bitch about paying taxes for Katrina victims, you are really bitching about a policy the majority is either likely to support or repeal in the future, so what is the point?

As for blaming the victims of Katrina for choosing to live in N.O. despite the danger, I have to agree with the poster who compaired them to people who currently inhabit California and Florida despite the potential disasters. Aren’t those people just as irresponsible right now for not relocating, since the fault was in not moving before the disaster?

And I don’t think it is anymore the choice of those people to live in those places than it is your to live in the U.S. If you have a problem with this nation’s tax policy than why don’t you leave. We are all free by natural law and have the choice whether or not we want to live in this society (Dec. of Ind.) If you choose to become or remain a citizen, you have to sacrifice some of you freedoms, like the freedom to kill another person or steal property from another, for the collective good.

To be a member of a civilization you have to abide by the rules you disagree with, like paying taxes, as well as the ones you agree with. This is the loyal opposition and it is the reason that we do not have a revolution every 4 years.

So see, nobody is forcing you to pay taxes to support Katrina victims. It is your choice and their are several ways you can change this immediately or in the future.

But personally I do think that complaining about paying a little more in taxes to support your countrymen in a time of need sounds selfish and, quite frankly, unpatriotic. I understand the idea of being entitled to keep what you earn. That is a good principle. But by sharing the privilige of living in this nation you are also privy to benifits such as security, justice, rule of law, and infrastructure.

To enjoy these benifits without being willing to contribute back to your fellow Americans and your country, I would see you as the “parasite,” not the people whose jobs and homes were destroyed.

jackreape · December 7, 2005, 7:13pm

What a load of crap this thread is on all sides. Of course the goverment is gonna rebuild NOLA. Of course FEMA is going to help out. Of course there should be a limit to the largesse of the goverment.

A few facts:
-For at least six months prior to the storm, numerous TV commercials and specials clearly laid out what was going to happen if the city was hit directly by a Hurricane. Electricly powered pumps were going to fail, and the city would flood. They repeated if you stayed in the flood you were on your own. They repeated a Level 4 or 5 Hurricane would flood the city “bowl”.

-By saturday the 27th you could not miss the evacuation orders of Jefferson, Orleans, St Bernard, and Plaquemines Parishes on every media type possible. By sunday the storm was clearly a level 5 Hurricane.

-The busses, that were always supplied with drivers during on election day, were never used. Fault?

-The parking lots around the Superdome and Convention Center were filled with cars of people who refused to evacuate. Why? What comes out on the 1st of every month?

-While blacks were the chief “victims” in Orleans Parish, St Bernard and Plaquemines’ victims were mainly white. Not much coverage as it didn’t fit the template, but the reason people stayed was culture not color. Lots of people pride themselves on riding out storms in Southern La.

-If you wait on you roof for the goverment to rescue you by helicopter, you will wait a while. Shooting at, or reporting that people are shooting at US Military helicopters, will slow the process.

-We have not widely used active duty forces for rescue ops and to maintain law and order. Why no whining from the left like the Patriot act? US troops patrolling cities? WTF?

-If you didn’t have insurance and lived in a flood plain you either are stupid or defrauded your mortage company.

-In less than an hour i was taken care of by FEMA on their website. The danger of being unable to read and write English has consequences.

-Insurance companies suck, and mine and I are going to go round and round for a while. They aren’t giving away money but I am not taking no for an answer. We will meet somewhere in the middle.

-I am tired of whining. There are some truly sad stories, probably more a million sad stories. No excuse to lay around and not get on with your life, or expect somebody else to take care of you…or you will be standing on your roof waving at the helicopter.

Bottom Line:Get you and your family out of the way of a Level 5 Hurricane. It was coming, it was predictable, and there was no excuse.We evacuated 11 times over the past 8 years. Not hard to figure out to have your stuff in order. BTW, i live there for a job, not out of choice. When i am done we are gone.

I am going back to fix my house in January. No whining allowed.

Step up.

Headhunter · December 7, 2005, 7:14pm

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:

Insurance is a voluntary agreement between the two parties. But say, Prof X, since you probably have a pretty high income, shouldn’t you be forced to pay for insurance for those in need? Is your desire for, a new car for example, more important than the poor who have no insurance? Shouldn’t you drive an old beater and pay someone else’s insurance bills? Isn’t the need of those who have little a moral claim on those who have more? Aren’t you supposed to be enslaved because of your ability and intelligience, enslaved to those who have neither your intelligience or your ability? Aren’t the ambitious here to serve the needs of the lazy?

I hope everyone sees how the worship of need has infected us all. Until we expel this from our consciousness, we never will have a civilized world – just parasites and victims.

I hope you understand what you are saying, because you are starting to espouse very Hitlerian beliefs.

The parasites and victims? You can yap your Nietzachean wannabe quotes all you like. But put down “Twilight of the Idols” for a second and think how it would be if people were so callous to you in a tremendous tragedy.

It is sickening that you can believe that the world can actually work in the way you are describing, especially when very dew of us have had such horrendous things happen to us as what has happened in New Orleans. You mentioned something about being Irish…I hope you don’t call yourself a Catholic. If good for nothing else, religion should teach mercy, and helping those less fortunate.

And that is what these folks need- help. Not some asshole yapping online about how they are parasites.[/quote]

This has got to be your stupidest post to date. You did not read anything I wrote, you just mouthed off like a punk. In my thread, I stated that all relationships between humans should be voluntary: (1) Does that sound Hitlerian? (2) Since you object to this freedom, you obviously favor slavery.

And you call me an asshole. You are a troll punk. Don’t read or respond to my work any longer. It won’t be read by me. You are a different species and I only converse with humans.

Headhunter · December 7, 2005, 7:17pm

[quote]harris447 wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
One question: what do you teach and where do you teach it?

And where do your students go on to mop the floors and make fries with this kind of knowledge?
[/quote]

They’re in the checkout line at Kroger while you bag their groceries. Don’t drool on their eggs now Harris!

Headhunter · December 7, 2005, 7:30pm

[quote]Dorso wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
AZMojo wrote:
Headhunter wrote:

What if I don’t want to fund other people’s irresponsibility? “Well, we’ve got guns and jails, so you’ll pay or else!” Like most liberals, since they can’t convince someone to cooperate, they resort to violence.

This is the best paragraph of your little rant.
Now it’s the LIBERALS that are using the guns and jails to forward their agenda? Politics changes so quickly these days.
Isn’t the government funding their own irresponsibility, since they allowed the city to be built there in the first place?
I’m confused, would you care to elaborate?

Hmmm… I’m telling you all to be free and I’m being attacked. Okay, cool.

Look, the philosophy of liberals has been that government should be used to solve problems. For example, LBJ’s Great Society Program. Government grows and so do its extortions. Now, would you voluntarily pay your income taxes to support this? Some would, surely. Many will not. The government then uses the threat of confiscation, jail, guns, to force those people to comply.

The former residents of New Orleans are demanding that you pay for their choice. They chose to live in a dangerous place. They gambled that the levees would hold and that they could live in a city that should actually be underwater. They were wrong. If someone decided to bet their life savings at a roulette wheel, are you responsible for them if they lose?

I don’t wish to pay for someone else’s irresponsibility. They made a choice. Now, they should have to rely on private charity for help. Their need does not give them the right to get the government to point a gun at my head.

Clear?

As far as I know, we still live in a representative democracy. “The Government” (please specify what you mean) does not really do much without the authority of the electorate…us. If an elected member of the federal government does something the people do not like, they elect somebody else and the system will slowly change, as it did between LBJ and Reagan. So to bitch about paying taxes for Katrina victims, you are really bitching about a policy the majority is either likely to support or repeal in the future, so what is the point?

As for blaming the victims of Katrina for choosing to live in N.O. despite the danger, I have to agree with the poster who compaired them to people who currently inhabit California and Florida despite the potential disasters. Aren’t those people just as irresponsible right now for not relocating, since the fault was in not moving before the disaster?

And I don’t think it is anymore the choice of those people to live in those places than it is your to live in the U.S. If you have a problem with this nation’s tax policy than why don’t you leave. We are all free by natural law and have the choice whether or not we want to live in this society (Dec. of Ind.) If you choose to become or remain a citizen, you have to sacrifice some of you freedoms, like the freedom to kill another person or steal property from another, for the collective good.

To be a member of a civilization you have to abide by the rules you disagree with, like paying taxes, as well as the ones you agree with. This is the loyal opposition and it is the reason that we do not have a revolution every 4 years.

So see, nobody is forcing you to pay taxes to support Katrina victims. It is your choice and their are several ways you can change this immediately or in the future.

But personally I do think that complaining about paying a little more in taxes to support your countrymen in a time of need sounds selfish and, quite frankly, unpatriotic. I understand the idea of being entitled to keep what you earn. That is a good principle. But by sharing the privilige of living in this nation you are also privy to benifits such as security, justice, rule of law, and infrastructure.

To enjoy these benifits without being willing to contribute back to your fellow Americans and your country, I would see you as the “parasite,” not the people whose jobs and homes were destroyed. [/quote]

An intelligient post! There are others but some people cluttered.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident: (these are called axioms) that all men are created equal – that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. That among these are the rights to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.” (This is from memory so excuse any minor mistakes.) Now, where is the part about how a civilised society is allowed to force some members of the society to subsidize other members? Where’s the part about how I have to willingly surrender my earnings so that people who got what they deserved (living in a dangerous area that was bound to flood someday) get extortion money from me?

I wish everyone who comments would please read all my posts before attacking me. If you can refute anything I said, w/o the vile namecalling, I will hear it gladly. Except for Fightin Irish – he’s beyond help.

Headhunter · December 7, 2005, 7:36pm

[quote]jackreape wrote:
What a load of crap this thread is on all sides. Of course the goverment is gonna rebuild NOLA. Of course FEMA is going to help out. Of course there should be a limit to the largesse of the goverment.