The Real Newt Gingrich

Ron Paul was never a viable candidate in 2008 - and imagine in 2012 if the old fool had to defend this kind of nonsense yet again in a national campaign. Digging into Paul’s “report” and “newsletters”:

[i]The newsletters’ obsession with blacks and gays was of a piece with a conscious political strategy adopted at that same time by Lew Rockwell and Murray Rothbard. After breaking with the Libertarian Party following the 1988 presidential election, Rockwell and Rothbard formed a schismatic “paleolibertarian” movement, which rejected what they saw as the social libertinism and leftist tendencies of mainstream libertarians. In 1990, they launched the Rothbard-Rockwell Report, where they crafted a plan they hoped would midwife a broad new “paleo” coalition.

Rockwell explained the thrust of the idea in a 1990 Liberty essay entitled “The Case for Paleo-Libertarianism.” To Rockwell, the LP was a “party of the stoned,” a halfway house for libertines that had to be “de-loused.” To grow, the movement had to embrace older conservative values. “State-enforced segregation,” Rockwell wrote, “was wrong, but so is State-enforced integration. State-enforced segregation was not wrong because separateness is wrong, however. Wishing to associate with members of one’s own race, nationality, religion, class, sex, or even political party is a natural and normal human impulse.”

The most detailed description of the strategy came in an essay Rothbard wrote for the January 1992 Rothbard-Rockwell Report, titled “Right-Wing Populism: A Strategy for the Paleo Movement.” Lamenting that mainstream intellectuals and opinion leaders were too invested in the status quo to be brought around to a libertarian view, Rothbard pointed to David Duke and Joseph McCarthy as models for an “Outreach to the Rednecks,” which would fashion a broad libertarian/paleoconservative coalition by targeting the disaffected working and middle classes. (Duke, a former Klansman, was discussed in strikingly similar terms in a 1990 Ron Paul Political Report.) These groups could be mobilized to oppose an expansive state, Rothbard posited, by exposing an “unholy alliance of ‘corporate liberal’ Big Business and media elites, who, through big government, have privileged and caused to rise up a parasitic Underclass, who, among them all, are looting and oppressing the bulk of the middle and working classes in America.”

Anyone with doubts about the composition of the “parasitic Underclass” could look to the regular “PC Watch” feature of the Report, in which Rockwell compiled tale after tale of thuggish black men terrifying petite white and Asian women. (Think Birth of a Nation crossed with News of the Weird.) The list of PC outrages in the February 1993 issue, for example, cited a Washington Post column on films that feature “plenty of interracial sex, and nobody noticing,” a news article about black members of the Southern Methodist University marching band “engaged in mass shoplifting while in Japan,” and a sob story about a Korean shop-owner who shot a black shoplifter and assailant in the head: The travesty is that Mrs. Du got five years probation, and must cancel a trip to Korea.

The populist outreach program centered on tax reduction, abolition of welfare, elimination of “the entire ‘civil rights’ structure, which tramples on the property rights of every American,” and a police crackdown on “street criminals.” “Cops must be unleashed,” Rothbard wrote, “and allowed to administer instant punishment, subject of course to liability when they are in error.” While they’re at it, they should “clear the streets of bums and vagrants. Where will they go? Who cares?” To seal the deal with social conservatives, Rothbard urged a federalist compromise in their direction on “pornography, prostitution, or abortion.” And because grassroots organizing is “plodding and boring,” this new paleo coalition would need to be kick-started by “high-level, preferably presidential, political campaigns.”[/i]

This, from the link I attached.

Ron Paul is more than a quackbat politician - he is a sleaze and a man of low character who appealed to some of the most base, disgusting aspects of low-grade society for support. He pandered to bigots.

And, the hilarity (and irony) of 2008’s “REVOLution”. This infernal scoundrel is an embarrassment to the United States Congress.

But, in the spirit of the thread, could this guy be worse than Gingrich and his flaws? The answer is, of course, yes, and I am no water-carrier for Newt.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
If someone has no chance the deck must be cleared for those who do. And having Ron Paul nut jobs running around claiming that he has a good chance to become President is not only tantamount to crazy talk, but it takes up bandwidth which can be better used to discuss real politics, which can be fun. It also encourages the many closet Obama supporters as they know, like every other thinking adult who has a modicum of political savvy, Paul is NOT going to get elected President, or even come close for that matter.[/quote]

Okay.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
I agree, Zeb.

But my question is: with only 2 years from the election, that person should be at least “visible” at this point…putting out “feelers”…getting together preliminary focus and search groups…putting a State-by-State structure in place, etc.

I’ve heard nothing.

On Palin. I think that she has “grown” since the election…but even without the “bias” of the media…I don’t see her surviving a Primary Run…much less a general election.

Mufasa[/quote]

What if Palin were to get a better offer , she may quit being Prez:)
[/quote]

When she resigned her position as Governor of Alaska I stated right here on T Nation that she was not resigning to run for President, but to cash in on her name. She has done that frequently. She also continues to be a lightening rod for the right. She will be able to fire up the base moving forward. Other than gaining multimillionaire status, she may at some point be given a high level cabinet post if the right republican is fortunate enough to overcome the odds and win the White House.

At least that’s my read. What do you think?[/quote]

I think quitting to cash in on anything is a Character issue , I am not a fan of Sarah , but I agree she does have a fan base
[/quote]

Character issue huh? I don’t know what she was paid as Alaska Governor, but I can tell you that whatever it was is considerably less than what she’s making currently. If you think that serving out her remaining 18 months, or whatever it was, and then cashing in somehow would have made her a better person, I’d have to disagree. And I am no fan of Palin (for President at least) either.

Life offers so few opportunities to cash in such a lucrative manner. When one comes along, which is above board and can set you up for life financially you are a fool if you don’t take it. Besides, I think she owed the press this one. They have to look at her everyday whether they like it or not.
[/quote]

Well the Pres makes about 400 k a year , you could do that at Walmart, I hope she would not quit to work at Walmart :slight_smile:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
I agree, Zeb.

But my question is: with only 2 years from the election, that person should be at least “visible” at this point…putting out “feelers”…getting together preliminary focus and search groups…putting a State-by-State structure in place, etc.

I’ve heard nothing.

On Palin. I think that she has “grown” since the election…but even without the “bias” of the media…I don’t see her surviving a Primary Run…much less a general election.

Mufasa[/quote]

What if Palin were to get a better offer , she may quit being Prez:)
[/quote]

When she resigned her position as Governor of Alaska I stated right here on T Nation that she was not resigning to run for President, but to cash in on her name. She has done that frequently. She also continues to be a lightening rod for the right. She will be able to fire up the base moving forward. Other than gaining multimillionaire status, she may at some point be given a high level cabinet post if the right republican is fortunate enough to overcome the odds and win the White House.

At least that’s my read. What do you think?[/quote]

I think quitting to cash in on anything is a Character issue , I am not a fan of Sarah , but I agree she does have a fan base
[/quote]

Character issue huh? I don’t know what she was paid as Alaska Governor, but I can tell you that whatever it was is considerably less than what she’s making currently. If you think that serving out her remaining 18 months, or whatever it was, and then cashing in somehow would have made her a better person, I’d have to disagree. And I am no fan of Palin (for President at least) either.

Life offers so few opportunities to cash in such a lucrative manner. When one comes along, which is above board and can set you up for life financially you are a fool if you don’t take it. Besides, I think she owed the press this one. They have to look at her everyday whether they like it or not.
[/quote]

Well the Pres makes about 400 k a year , you could do that at Walmart, I hope she would not quit to work at Walmart :)[/quote]

LOL!

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
I agree, Zeb.

But my question is: with only 2 years from the election, that person should be at least “visible” at this point…putting out “feelers”…getting together preliminary focus and search groups…putting a State-by-State structure in place, etc.

I’ve heard nothing.

On Palin. I think that she has “grown” since the election…but even without the “bias” of the media…I don’t see her surviving a Primary Run…much less a general election.

Mufasa[/quote]

What if Palin were to get a better offer , she may quit being Prez:)
[/quote]

When she resigned her position as Governor of Alaska I stated right here on T Nation that she was not resigning to run for President, but to cash in on her name. She has done that frequently. She also continues to be a lightening rod for the right. She will be able to fire up the base moving forward. Other than gaining multimillionaire status, she may at some point be given a high level cabinet post if the right republican is fortunate enough to overcome the odds and win the White House.

At least that’s my read. What do you think?[/quote]

I think quitting to cash in on anything is a Character issue , I am not a fan of Sarah , but I agree she does have a fan base
[/quote]

Character issue huh? I don’t know what she was paid as Alaska Governor, but I can tell you that whatever it was is considerably less than what she’s making currently. If you think that serving out her remaining 18 months, or whatever it was, and then cashing in somehow would have made her a better person, I’d have to disagree. And I am no fan of Palin (for President at least) either.

Life offers so few opportunities to cash in such a lucrative manner. When one comes along, which is above board and can set you up for life financially you are a fool if you don’t take it. Besides, I think she owed the press this one. They have to look at her everyday whether they like it or not.
[/quote]

Well the Pres makes about 400 k a year , you could do that at Walmart, I hope she would not quit to work at Walmart :)[/quote]

To be quite honest, I understand why someone would want to become President. But, I do think it takes a unique person to actually pull it off. The ego, the desire, background, etc. But I’d much rather be President of walmart.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
I agree, Zeb.

But my question is: with only 2 years from the election, that person should be at least “visible” at this point…putting out “feelers”…getting together preliminary focus and search groups…putting a State-by-State structure in place, etc.

I’ve heard nothing.

On Palin. I think that she has “grown” since the election…but even without the “bias” of the media…I don’t see her surviving a Primary Run…much less a general election.

Mufasa[/quote]

What if Palin were to get a better offer , she may quit being Prez:)
[/quote]

When she resigned her position as Governor of Alaska I stated right here on T Nation that she was not resigning to run for President, but to cash in on her name. She has done that frequently. She also continues to be a lightening rod for the right. She will be able to fire up the base moving forward. Other than gaining multimillionaire status, she may at some point be given a high level cabinet post if the right republican is fortunate enough to overcome the odds and win the White House.

At least that’s my read. What do you think?[/quote]

I think quitting to cash in on anything is a Character issue , I am not a fan of Sarah , but I agree she does have a fan base
[/quote]

Character issue huh? I don’t know what she was paid as Alaska Governor, but I can tell you that whatever it was is considerably less than what she’s making currently. If you think that serving out her remaining 18 months, or whatever it was, and then cashing in somehow would have made her a better person, I’d have to disagree. And I am no fan of Palin (for President at least) either.

Life offers so few opportunities to cash in such a lucrative manner. When one comes along, which is above board and can set you up for life financially you are a fool if you don’t take it. Besides, I think she owed the press this one. They have to look at her everyday whether they like it or not.
[/quote]

Well the Pres makes about 400 k a year , you could do that at Walmart, I hope she would not quit to work at Walmart :)[/quote]

To be quite honest, I understand why someone would want to become President. But, I do think it takes a unique person to actually pull it off. The ego, the desire, background, etc. But I’d much rather be President of walmart.
[/quote]

I have 4 friends that were Governor of Alaska , there is no prestige there

Where are our Paulistas rushing to explain the notes I posted? Where is the defense of the devoted?

Here we have Ron Paul trafficking in and pandering to white nationalist bigots - where is the explanation?

Here we have Murray Rothbard - he of “peace and prosperity and liberty” - calling for police thugs to be “unleashed” to crack some skulls. Where is one of his followers’ heart-felt contextualization to explain that Rothbard is just “misunderstood”?

Why the silence? Surely there are good explantaions?

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Where are our Paulistas rushing to explain the notes I posted? Where is the defense of the devoted?

Here we have Ron Paul trafficking in and pandering to white nationalist bigots - where is the explanation?

Here we have Murray Rothbard - he of “peace and prosperity and liberty” - calling for police thugs to be “unleashed” to crack some skulls. Where is one of his followers’ heart-felt contextualization to explain that Rothbard is just “misunderstood”?

Why the silence? Surely there are good explantaions?[/quote]

(Crickets chirping)

At this point what difference does it make. I like Ron Paul but the sheeple of America will not elect him. Let’s face it, you will never go broke underestimating the stupidity of the American public. I mean they elected Bush Jr. twice and Obama. What more proof do you need?

There is no fundamental difference between either party. What, the Republicans are going to sweep into Congress and end the Fed and pull us out our wars? Give me a break.

What is going to happen is that this “recession” is going to become a full blown depression. The economic situation is going to continue to spiral downward. Things in this country are going to start deteriorating at an even faster rate. Crime is going to sky rocket. Rumblings of revolution will continue to get louder and louder.

Real change is only going to happen when people are pushed beyond the breaking point. Adversity is what makes men. At that point we will see a true 2nd path open up.

The choice will then be up to us. Continue down the path of ruin (follow the Republicans/democrats) or follow one to a greater future.

Does the Ron Paul cult ever get tired of repeating the same things over and over…and over?

This isn’t the time for the “Fema Camps!” speech. It’s time to pull out the old “it’s impossible for a libertarian to be racist” chestnut.

[quote]Charlemagne wrote:

There is no fundamental difference between either party. [/quote]

The only people who say this are people who really don’t understand either party.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Where are our Paulistas rushing to explain the notes I posted? Where is the defense of the devoted?

Here we have Ron Paul trafficking in and pandering to white nationalist bigots - where is the explanation?

Here we have Murray Rothbard - he of “peace and prosperity and liberty” - calling for police thugs to be “unleashed” to crack some skulls. Where is one of his followers’ heart-felt contextualization to explain that Rothbard is just “misunderstood”?

Why the silence? Surely there are good explantaions?[/quote]

While I am certainly no Ron Paul fan (much less a “Paulista”), maybe I can offer some thoughts on this. First of all, here is the full article for anyone interested straight from lewrockwell.com: http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/ir/Ch5.html. Now we can avoid any out-of-context criticisms.

I don’t believe that Rothbard was intending to be racist, nor have I found much racism throughout the rest of his writings (of which I have barely scratched the surface, the man has written tens of thousands of pages). He was extremely anti-political and anti-pc. I don’t agree with his approach in the article, and to be honest, what pisses me off about it is not the supposed “racism”, but his blatant statism. The thing about the cops was just stupid, although after saying, “Who cares?”, you’ll notice he did say, “Hopefully, they will disappear, that is, move from the ranks of the petted and cosseted bum class to the ranks of the productive members of society.”

My take is that he was a desperate and old man. I don’t approve of the article, but it hardly voids all of the tens of thousands of pages he wrote before this, which had nothing to do with this strategy and had no trace of bigotry. FTR, I could easily see Rockwell saying something racist and bigoted. I am not a fan of his at all as he is quite vulgar.

Edit: Link seems not to be working… just google “Right-wing populism lewrockwell.com” and you should come up with the article.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

The only people who say this are people who really don’t understand either party. [\quote]

Oh please enlighten me then. Let’s see, how about a greatest hits on which party is for what…

  1. Bailing out the too big to fails.
  2. Amnesty
  3. Expanding the War on Terror
  4. Expanding the War on Drugs
  5. Giving the Federal Reserve more power
  6. Extending the Patriot Act
  7. De-industrializing what little we have left in America
  8. Sending more jobs overseas
  9. Deregulating Wall Street even further
  10. Supporting Israel regardless of what it does to our own foreign policy
  11. Warrant less searches and wire taps
  12. Expanding war into Pakistan and Iran
  13. Bought and paid for by Goldman Sachs (both parties receive massive funding)
    … And on and on and on

Give up, BOTH PARTIES!!

The only differences that the two parties argue over are things that really don’t matter. It’s syntax really.

Gay marriage, steroids in baseball, and other shit that has no bearing on anybody. Meanwhile both parties and their buddies on Wall Street rob the people blind.

No, we need a 3rd party, one that is totally different from the two-headed one party system we have now.

[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
ZEB wrote:

The only people who say this are people who really don’t understand either party. [\quote]

Oh please enlighten me then. Let’s see, how about a greatest hits on which party is for what…

  1. Bailing out the too big to fails.
  2. Amnesty
  3. Expanding the War on Terror
  4. Expanding the War on Drugs
  5. Giving the Federal Reserve more power
  6. Extending the Patriot Act
  7. De-industrializing what little we have left in America
  8. Sending more jobs overseas
  9. Deregulating Wall Street even further
  10. Supporting Israel regardless of what it does to our own foreign policy
  11. Warrant less searches and wire taps
  12. Expanding war into Pakistan and Iran
  13. Bought and paid for by Goldman Sachs (both parties receive massive funding)
    … And on and on and on

Give up, BOTH PARTIES!!

The only differences that the two parties argue over are things that really don’t matter. It’s syntax really.

Gay marriage, steroids in baseball, and other shit that has no bearing on anybody. Meanwhile both parties and their buddies on Wall Street rob the people blind.

No, we need a 3rd party, one that is totally different from the two-headed one party system we have now.

[/quote]

You’re a good guy, but you are confusing a man with a party. Did GW represent true republican ideals even half the time? No.

If you take a close look at what the disaster called Obama has done you will see that the majority of republicans in the house and senate have fought him all the way. From national health care to the cap and trade bill and just about everything in between.

The republicans may not be as libertarian as you like, but lumping them in with the democrats is a mischaracterization of the highest magnitude, and just flat out wrong.

Zeb:

A larger and larger number of the American people…including many whom consider themselves conservative…feel as though the differences in the two parties is merely cosmetic or “around the edges”.

While they may both “talk a different talk”…in the end, they both tend to “walk the same walk”.

Mufasa

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Zeb:

A larger and larger number of the American people…including many whom consider themselves conservative…feel as though the differences in the two parties is merely cosmetic or “around the edges”.

While they may both “talk a different talk”…in the end, they both tend to “walk the same walk”.

Mufasa[/quote]

Exactly. Ever heard of the phrase: “By their deeds you shall know them”

I am basing my opinion on what the Republicans have done over the last 30-40 years. In reality they are not a whole lot different from the Democrats. Both are bought and paid for by AIPAC, Big Pharma and Wall Street. (Or “Big” whatever at this point, both parties have said fuck you to small business and entrepreneurs). And they certainly vote according to that line.

Case in point. Scott Brown. Remember he was the next big thing. Well he was all for the travesty and utter joke that was the Financial Reform Bill. Scott Brown is just as much in the pocket of Goldman Sachs as any other of those clowns.

No there is no difference.

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Zeb:

A larger and larger number of the American people…including many whom consider themselves conservative…feel as though the differences in the two parties is merely cosmetic or “around the edges”.

While they may both “talk a different talk”…in the end, they both tend to “walk the same walk”.

Mufasa[/quote]

That is a sweeping false conclusion perpetuated by those who do not understand that two party system. And who apparently did not witness the republicans fight tooth and nail to keep Obama from passing his socialistic agenda.

[quote]Dabba wrote:

My take is that he was a desperate and old man. I don’t approve of the article, but it hardly voids all of the tens of thousands of pages he wrote before this, which had nothing to do with this strategy and had no trace of bigotry. FTR, I could easily see Rockwell saying something racist and bigoted. I am not a fan of his at all as he is quite vulgar.
[/quote]

X2

I will admit that I have not even put a dent into the number of books and pages written by Rothbard on the concept of liberty. From what I have read, I have not come across one sentence that could be construed as bigoted or racist. In fact, I don’t recall him ever mentioning matters of race at all.

As I said previously, I was a libertarian before I ever read the work of Murray Rothbard. What he said in the article (no matter the context) doesn’t change my opinions on liberty or his contributions to the movement/philosophy.

[quote]Dabba wrote:

I don’t believe that Rothbard was intending to be racist, nor have I found much racism throughout the rest of his writings (of which I have barely scratched the surface, the man has written tens of thousands of pages). He was extremely anti-political and anti-pc. I don’t agree with his approach in the article, and to be honest, what pisses me off about it is not the supposed “racism”, but his blatant statism. The thing about the cops was just stupid, although after saying, “Who cares?”, you’ll notice he did say, “Hopefully, they will disappear, that is, move from the ranks of the petted and cosseted bum class to the ranks of the productive members of society.”[/quote]

I don’t want to tangent too much on Rothbard (when the focus is on Paul), but a couple of points.

First, the writing marks him as a complete hypocrite (as you note in your plaint of his support for statism). He advocates the worst kind of authoritarianism meted out by brute force that has no patience for due process. No person evaluating Rothbard can gloss over this ridiculous contradiction in his positions.

But, a step further on hypocrisy. The man was an academic at a public university. That’s worth highlighting - he was an academic at a public university.

He was an academic, not a producer of a good or skill that he exchanged for value in the marketplace. Moreover, he was a navel-gazing academic whose paychecks were provided by government subsidy on the taxpayer’s nickel. In short, he was nothing but a coffeehouse pontificator who existed on the public take - he was exactly the kind of economic actor he claimed he stood against.

Set aside his crackpot philosophy, which despite the “thousands of pages” written can be refuted in less than a paragraph, he doesn’t have the credibility to provide moral underpinning for “anarchy” because, he, himself, couldn’t be bothered to live by the rules he so dogmatically insisted that the rest of us adhere to (no compromise!!!) from his pulpit.

Impossible - how does it not void all he has written when he advocates the very thing he has railed against his entire academic career - brute force statism?

This would be the equivalent of Karl Marx, in a later book, calling for a complete adherence to laissez-faire economics and defense of private propery. Would that void Marx’s earlier credibility on communism had he done so?

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
I don’t want to tangent too much on Rothbard (when the focus is on Paul), but a couple of points.[/quote]

Well now you gone and don’ it.

This still doesn’t void out his criticisms of the state in prior writings. If you read, he does also say, “Cops must be unleashed, and allowed to administer instant punishment, subject of course to liability when they are in error.” Seems like he realized he was being somewhat statist here, which is why he threw in the part about liability. In any event, I agree with you that this was incredibly uncharacteristic of him and even hypocritical.

Well, I looked up the Polytechnic Institute (where he taught for twenty-two years) and it says that it is a private institution. Of course, if you’re talking about UNLV, where taught until his death, I concede. However, I must say that, I personally, am of the opinion that libertarians need not engage in purposeful avoidance of the state. It’s nearly impossible. I don’t advocate “renegade libertarianism” in which you try to avoid everything public at any cost. Maybe there is an element of hypocrisy here, but from a practical standpoint it makes sense.

Only for a short time. Again, renegade libertarianism does not advance the movement whatsoever.

Eh? He didn’t insist that we all avoid the state, stop using public services, and engage in tax evasion. It’s stupid to avoid the state simply because you don’t agree with it. You do realize that it holds a monopoly on certain services, right? Using those services, as a libertarian, does not make you unprincipled whatsoever.

Because he never advocated it before this? And, I wouldn’t really call it, “brute force statism”. It was more like a weak concession that cops must be unleashed in order to further libertarian ends. IE sacrificing the means for the ends. A bad strategy, no doubt, but I don’t think it completely qualifies as brute force statism.

However, Rothbard did not call for complete adherence to statist economics. He made one or two references to cops doing their job in an aggressive manner (of which they hold a monopoly on, so they better do their job). I already said that there is some hypocrisy in this specifically. However, let’s not exaggerate and act like he advocated complete statism.

I think you ought to stop letting your clear hatred for libertarianism get in the way of realizing that he simply had a moment of weakness when he wrote this article.