The Real Newt Gingrich

[quote]Dabba wrote:

Well, I looked up the Polytechnic Institute (where he taught for twenty-two years) and it says that it is a private institution. Of course, if you’re talking about UNLV, where taught until his death, I concede. However, I must say that, I personally, am of the opinion that libertarians need not engage in purposeful avoidance of the state. It’s nearly impossible. I don’t advocate “renegade libertarianism” in which you try to avoid everything public at any cost. Maybe there is an element of hypocrisy here, but from a practical standpoint it makes sense.[/quote]

I can understand your point about “renegade libertarianism”, but that isn’t what’s at issue with Rothbard. It’s one thing to be a libertarian but still take a public bus - it is enirely another thing to be an uncompromising anarchist and a government employee.

That isn’t pragmatism; it’s hypocrisy. He demands that humans sever all ties to the public dole and go sell their labor on the market, and that this is the only “just” system…except that he is exempted from his own iron rule.

There is nothing “renegade” about choosing not to be a government employee in a dymanic, mature market that afforded any number of jobs if you are at all competent. And I can assure you that while “renegade libertarianism” may not advance the cause (even though Rothbard being a government employee does not fall under this category), being a hypocrite certainly does not advance the movement, and look no further than Al Gore and his sermonizing about how everyone else should live according to the rules of environmental correctness except himself.

Red herring. Taking a comfortable, padded job as a college professor at a public university isn’t using a “public service” as a matter of convenience due to a lack of viable choices. His action, however, was the very definition of unprincipled - choosing, that’s right, choosing among many choices, comfy sinecure funded by the taxpayer instead of practicing the very tenets he preached.

Really? “Unleashing cops” to crack skulls without due process of law is simply “bad strategy”? It can’t further libertarian ends because it acts in complete contradiction to libertarian ends. And, who cares what end it is designed to achieve? “Unleashing cops” in the way he describes is the very example of “brute force statism” - what else could it be?

I must admit, I find your defense of Rothbard, well, tortured.

I never said he advocated complete statism, but that isn’t the point. The point is that Rothbard preaches a dogmatic philosophy that even he is unwilling to live by, even when given the choice to.

Recall, Rothbard isn’t some garden-variety libertarian - a socially liberal, market-oriented type who simply wanted less government. He was an anarchist - and he had an uncompromising view of a One True Faith that tolerated no heresy.

That rigid philosophical commitment makes any action he takes in contravention to that commitment all the more hypocritical - because just as he had no room to compromise, the compromises he made must be held to the exacting standard he himself created.

My hatred of libertarianism has reached quantum proportions, it’s true - a political philosophy I once thought at least cousins with classical liberalism has, after peeling back the layers, been exposed as nothing but another strain of radical left-wing thinking that has is roots in Rousseau - however, you are simply incorrect that Rothbard had a “moment of weakness” when he wrote this article.

What he had was an agenda - he wanted to see his anti-government sentiment turned into practical politics. And in order to advance this ball, he began pandering to a low class of racists, nativists and brutes that would see his preachings against the “Underclass” and get behind the paleolibertarian platform.

He was appealing to the base instincts of this infernal group of people to start building a political coalition. That he did so is damning and sleazey enough, but his advocacy of “unleashing cops”, etc. was no accident.

Ron Paul, of course, did the same thing. The Unholy Trinity of Paul, Rothbard and Rockwell and their brand of libertarianism has a stench that has fouled up any chance of a libertarian ever getting close to a national office.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Zeb:

A larger and larger number of the American people…including many whom consider themselves conservative…feel as though the differences in the two parties is merely cosmetic or “around the edges”.

While they may both “talk a different talk”…in the end, they both tend to “walk the same walk”.

Mufasa[/quote]

That is a sweeping false conclusion perpetuated by those who do not understand that two party system. And who apparently did not witness the republicans fight tooth and nail to keep Obama from passing his socialistic agenda.
[/quote]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…this is NOT socialism. The merger of corporate and state powers is called FASCISM.

The “Bigs” are bigger than ever. The top ten banks control over 80% of all the financial action in America. 15 years ago that number was 15%. The top 3 pharmaceutical companies control over 66% of all the action. Walmart controls 45% of all retail sales. Monsanto controls a huge portion of the agriculture share. It is like that in every single industry in the country. How can anyone deny what is going on?

If you are a small business owner in this country you don’t stand a chance. The government will crack down on you like there is no tomorrow for the smallest infraction and tax the shit out of you. But if you are Goldman Sachs or Pfizer or BP you get every perk in the book.

And it is not a revolving door of people in Big Business and Wall Street bouncing from these institutions into government, THEY ARE THE GOVERNMENT. Barack Obama dances to Lloyd Blankfein’s tune. Obama is a toady to Wall Street.

Wake Up.

Where you at, John S.? Surely you have something to say in defense of Mr. Paul and his newsletters?

There is so much wrong with what you have written I wonder if I should just ignore the entire mess, or actually take the time to refute it. I guess I will take the time once. But from this point forward you really have to start getting informed. You have to stop walking around thinking that whatever pops in to your head is a fact. Sheesh.

[quote]Charlemagne wrote:

The “Bigs” are bigger than ever. [/quote]

Not true, the decades leading up to the 1920’s demonstrated gigantic corporate growth with almost zero control at the time. But you’d actually have to know something about history to appreciate this.

Financial “action” huh? Sorry to burst your libertarian bubble but that’s not the case. I guess you would have to define financial action, but if it means assets that is untrue. If it means stock trades (as in action) that’s not true. If it means investor wealth, that is also not true.

Here we go again with the word “action.” That must be a buzz word among libertarians when they don’t know what they’re talking about. “I tell you there’s a lot of action going on that they’re hiding from us. It’s a conspiracy I tell you!”

Okay, the top 3 pharmaceutical companies based upon gross revenue are: Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer and Roche. Their combined revenues are around 150 billion. Lots of money no question. But 66%? not even close! The rest of the big 10: Glaxo, Novartis, Sanofi-Aventis, AstraZeneca, Abbott, Merck, Bayer, Eli Lilly and Bristol Myers have combined revenues of Over 285 billion. Simply add the 285 to the 150 and you have a total of 435 billion in pharmaceutical “action.” 66% (what you accuse the top 3 of controlling) of 435 billion is 287 billion. Therefore you are wrong once again. In fact, the top 3 control about half of what you accused them of. When libertarians get hold of real facts do they just double them to drive their point home?

Wrong again. At this point I can’t make up my mind if this is your most stupid statement. There are so many.

Walmart retail sales topped 400 billion. A huge amount of money, but not even close to 45% of all retail sales. Retail sales in the US alone were 1 trillion 448 billion 333 million for 2009. That means that Walmart makes up about 22%, or just over half the figure that you have concocted out of thin air, or read in some libertarian propaganda sheet. Which is it?
Either way, you have once again about doubled what the real numbers are.

You first have to know what’s going on before you can actually deny it. At this point I think you have been feeding on the Paul brochures for so long that you just don’t know the truth.

Not a chance? None at all? Oh my gosh run for hills we have another flat out mischaracterization of the facts!

67% of all jobs are created in the small business sector. Does that tell you that it is alive and well?

They will just tax that poop right out of you huh? Yea, that’s what they’ll do (yawn). When you have a small business and few stock holders you can elect to form an “S” corporation (I know there are others but for our sake this will do for now). That S corporation allows you to take money out of your company as an owner without paying any taxes on it. In other words you are not double taxed like a larger corporation might be (those evil big corporations, how dare they employ all those people). So, you’re wrong again Paulie.

Funny stuff. BP just reported a loss of 32 billion based on the Gulf fiasco. Where was the US government helping them again? Oh that’s right in your mind.

Were you unaware of the large companies that went bankrupt without the government lifting a finger? Circut City and Linens & Things Lehman Brothers (financial institution too), Washington Mutual, Refco Inc., Delta Airlines, Conseco Inc., UAL, World Com., Global Crossing, Pacific Gas & Electric, and on and on, there are many more. Large companies that went bankrupt and the government did nothing to help them. But in your mind what’s going on? Are they still in business? Are you shopping at CC for a wide screen this evening? What is the color of your world anyway.

In addition to this the following are large companies that are either going bankrupt, on the verge, or just not doing very well. And guess what? The US government has not lifted a financial finger to help them: Blockbuster, Borders, Rite Aid, PALM, YRC WorldWide, Sears and this is just a short list.

Don’t tell the many Wall Street executives that are ticked off at Obama for being anti-business. In fact so much so that Wall Street Democrats who donated to his campaign are threatening to withdraw support. This is not a secret many high level publications have written about Obama being anti-business. Here you go read them, if you can tear yourself away from the libertarian gossip sheet:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/619dvjlm.asp

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/110763-forbes-obama-is-anti-business

http://theweek.com/article/index/204693/is-obama-anti-business

I woke up to a man standing over me talking crazy and spitting as he talked. That would be you. I absolutely do not have the time to go back and forth at this level again. Your next post better make some sense, or I’m done.

It seems to me that the libertarians are significantly uninformed. In addition to this they tend to stereotype. I would hazard a guess that many are also conspiracy theorists. Add all of this to racism charges and you have a very wrong minded group of people to be associated with.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
There is nothing “renegade” about choosing not to be a government employee in a dymanic, mature market that afforded any number of jobs if you are at all competent. And I can assure you that while “renegade libertarianism” may not advance the cause (even though Rothbard being a government employee does not fall under this category), being a hypocrite certainly does not advance the movement, and look no further than Al Gore and his sermonizing about how everyone else should live according to the rules of environmental correctness except himself.[/quote]

The problem with this is again a pragmatic one. What major university COULD he have taught at that wasn’t publicly funded?

To say that he should have not taught at a good university simply because it is public is missing the point that he likely would’ve taught at a major one if they were privately funded anyways. A libertarian should be free to engage in any job that is monopolized by the state that would still exist in a free market. Major universities would still exist in a free market. How are they ever to achieve their vision of a free society if they cannot enter the intellectual centers of the “enemy” and try to change it from within?

BTW, I actually did a little more reading on this subject and apparently Rothbard, as well as Mises and other Austrians, struggled very much to try to procure private funding for all of their educational posts (which Rothbard completely succeeded at when he was at Polytechnic). I heard from someone that Rothbard’s seat at UNLV was privately funded, but I don’t know any of the details.

You said that he insisted that we live by anarchist rules. That is simply untrue. That was the only point I was making.

To “crack skulls without due process?” Where did he say this?

To some degree, this is true, and like I said I don’t agree with his strategy. It was a stupid idea. But are you really saying that this ONE article voids out all of his work on economics, history, and even his political theory?

[quote]ZEB wrote:
It seems to me that the libertarians are significantly uninformed. In addition to this they tend to stereotype. I would hazard a guess that many are also conspiracy theorists. Add all of this to racism charges and you have a very wrong minded group of people to be associated with.[/quote]

Irony?

[quote]ZEB wrote:
It seems to me that the libertarians are significantly uninformed. In addition to this they tend to stereotype. I would hazard a guess that many are also conspiracy theorists. Add all of this to racism charges and you have a very wrong minded group of people to be associated with.[/quote]

I don’t associate myself with any one group. I try to ascertain what is going on and then make up my mind on an issue. That being said I don’t see what is so offensive about many things libertarians believe in…

  1. Ending the Federal Reserve
  2. Ending the losing wars we continue to throw money into
  3. Ending the war on drugs
  4. Actually enforcing the immigration laws
  5. Smaller federal government
  6. Stop giving money to foreign governments

what’s wrong with that?

[quote]Charlemagne wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
It seems to me that the libertarians are significantly uninformed. In addition to this they tend to stereotype. I would hazard a guess that many are also conspiracy theorists. Add all of this to racism charges and you have a very wrong minded group of people to be associated with.[/quote]

I don’t associate myself with any one group. I try to ascertain what is going on and then make up my mind on an issue. That being said I don’t see what is so offensive about many things libertarians believe in…

  1. Ending the Federal Reserve
  2. Ending the losing wars we continue to throw money into
  3. Ending the war on drugs
  4. Actually enforcing the immigration laws
  5. Smaller federal government
  6. Stop giving money to foreign governments

what’s wrong with that?[/quote]

I’m still waiting for you to accept the many errors written in your prior post. Try to explain to everyone why you posted all of those erroneous comments.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Charlemagne wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
It seems to me that the libertarians are significantly uninformed. In addition to this they tend to stereotype. I would hazard a guess that many are also conspiracy theorists. Add all of this to racism charges and you have a very wrong minded group of people to be associated with.[/quote]

I don’t associate myself with any one group. I try to ascertain what is going on and then make up my mind on an issue. That being said I don’t see what is so offensive about many things libertarians believe in…

  1. Ending the Federal Reserve
  2. Ending the losing wars we continue to throw money into
  3. Ending the war on drugs
  4. Actually enforcing the immigration laws
  5. Smaller federal government
  6. Stop giving money to foreign governments

what’s wrong with that?[/quote]

I’m still waiting for you to accept the many errors written in your prior post. Try to explain to everyone why you posted all of those erroneous comments.[/quote]

I will admit that the numbers were off. I was just pulling stuff of the top of my head. But the numbers weren’t too far off were they? The point was that the “Too big too fails” control the country.

Big business, Wall Street, and their buddies in Washington have formed an oligarchy that control the entire country. Yes let’s have that fabulous “trickle down economy”. You could be a limo driver for one of the ceo’s of Goldman Sachs, or how about cleaning up his bathroom for him. I got one, you could have been one of the servants at Chelsea Clinton’s wedding.

READ: Certain big businesses failed in this economy because they were not paid off with the right people in government. Remember Hank “The Don” Paulson, he acted as a wrecking ball destroying the competition at Bear Stern’s and Lehman Brothers. Where was he from, oh yeah, former CEO of Goldman Sachs. It was no different than the Gambino’s taking out the Colombo’s.

Yes, let’s all shop at Walmart for a bunch of shit produced at slave labor prices in China (by the way, aren’t they the communist enemy? Yet we can’t trade with Cuba, hmmmmm) while our own economy falters into utter ruin.

Let’s take a bunch of chemically laden shit produced by big pharma that doesn’t cure anything, but merely masks the symptoms. Don’t get me started on the uselessness of Western medicine for chronic diseases. Why? Because they don’t want people to get better, they won’t buy their drugs. What’s the difference between a dealer on the street selling weed and a doctor in the pocket of some pharmaceutical company pumping up some new type of pain killer? Besides that the whole medical system in this country is in financial disarray anyway. And I am completely against government getting involved in health care.

I got another great one. Let’s start another war. Let’s see should we invade Iran or Pakistan? Of course, the “elites” won’t send their kids off to fight. No, it will be the poor and average income families who fight and die. Perfect symptoms of empire decline, we drain the treasury while our own economy crumbles into dust.

Then government cracks down on the little people while their buddies get away with crimes of untold magnitudes. How about that piece of shit Karzai? You see pictures of US troops, walking through huge fields of poppies (I used to be one of them) in Afghanistan and ignoring the heroin trade because “we don’t want to hurt the family farmer’s income”, yet I would get busted for smoking a joint.

The US is turning from a 1st world nation into a third world shithole. This whole country is going to start looking like Detroit unless people wake up and stop listening to their “leaders”.

Newt Gingrich is a bought out politician, just like all the rest of them. He had his turn at congress and turned out to be a hack just like all the rest of them. America needs a new party and a new way. Neither the Democrats or the Republicans are going to take us there.

[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
ZEB wrote:

I’m still waiting for you to accept the many errors written in your prior post. Try to explain to everyone why you posted all of those erroneous comments.

I will admit that the numbers were off. I was just pulling stuff of the top of my head. But the numbers weren’t too far off were they?[/quote]

You pretty much doubled the correct numbers. I’d say that when you do that you’re off by quite a bit. For example what if I said the federal tax rate is 80%, close enough right? You don’t mind paying that do you? You epitomized the problem with fringe groups. The same thing goes when you say there is no difference between democrats and republicans. You have magnified that problem as well. I get frustrated with the republican party, however I’m thankful that they’re there to at least offer up solid resistance to Obama’s disastrous policies.

Stop saying that, I gave you a long list of large companies that have indeed failed, or are going to fail, and the government has done nothing and will do nothing. Stop walking around with the wrong thoughts in your head, look at the facts.

How can you agree that you made all of those errors and then post crap like this once again? What will it take for you to stop thinking in generalizations and grab hold of facts?

Here is one more fact for you, business hires people to work, only when they are making money. Otherwise, no on has a job. Basic stuff you can’t comprehend?

All honorable positions, and might I add I have done worse on my way to financial success. Why do you denigrate such jobs? All honest work is indeed honorable. You once again miss the boat by a country mile.

Where is your proof, or even strong evidence to prove such wild eyed claims? You just sit at your computer key board and write nonsense. The bad part is, there are many like you who without a shred of evidence. loaded with the wrong facts (as seen in your previous posts) walk around believing this stuff.

(eye roll) Where do I even begin? You make a perfect Ron Paul supporter.

Walmart is the enemy too huh? Never mind that they employee

Then tell me, why is it that people are living longer than ever before in the history of the country? One reason are the drugs that you complain about. Speaking from a personal stand point if it were not for those drugs several of my elderly relatives would be dead right now. Are they over prescribed at times? Sure, but that’s because doctors are over sold and thus prescribe too much sometimes.

But everything is a conspiracy with you isn’t it? You live in a very dark place mentally.

Okay, that explains some of this. You served in a prior war and came home not quite the way you went away. Sorry man.

a shit hole with the largest GNP in the world. Ha ha, you are a funny man.

Would you mind generalizing more? Oh wait, you can’t it would be impossible.

Also, I’m still waiting for you to say “you kids get off my lawn.” Isn’t that what nasty narrow minded old people do when they stop thinking?

That’s funny Gingrich (1994 contract with America), along with Bill Clinton brought us workfare. Remember that? No, you’re lost in combination of self deception, generalizations, and just plain sloppy thinking.

Summary:

I think I understand your various positions clearly now. The government is totally corrupt. Both parties are the same (even though they are inherently different). All corporations are evil and they are working with government to destroy the country. ( :slight_smile: ). Large corporations are especially evil no matter how many people they employ or how many free benefits that they give to those employees.

Does that about sum it up?

Okay, here’s an idea, let’s not post back and forth anymore. You are shot and I don’t have the time, or ability to rearrange your thinking so that you can even grasp the most basic of facts.

Bye.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
ZEB wrote:

I’m still waiting for you to accept the many errors written in your prior post. Try to explain to everyone why you posted all of those erroneous comments.

I will admit that the numbers were off. I was just pulling stuff of the top of my head. But the numbers weren’t too far off were they?[/quote]

You pretty much doubled the correct numbers. I’d say that when you do that you’re off by quite a bit. For example what if I said the federal tax rate is 80%, close enough right? You don’t mind paying that do you? You epitomized the problem with fringe groups. The same thing goes when you say there is no difference between democrats and republicans. You have magnified that problem as well. I get frustrated with the republican party, however I’m thankful that they’re there to at least offer up solid resistance to Obama’s disastrous policies.

Stop saying that, I gave you a long list of large companies that have indeed failed, or are going to fail, and the government has done nothing and will do nothing. Stop walking around with the wrong thoughts in your head, look at the facts.

How can you agree that you made all of those errors and then post crap like this once again? What will it take for you to stop thinking in generalizations and grab hold of facts?

Here is one more fact for you, business hires people to work, only when they are making money. Otherwise, no on has a job. Basic stuff you can’t comprehend?

All honorable positions, and might I add I have done worse on my way to financial success. Why do you denigrate such jobs? All honest work is indeed honorable. You once again miss the boat by a country mile.

Where is your proof, or even strong evidence to prove such wild eyed claims? You just sit at your computer key board and write nonsense. The bad part is, there are many like you who without a shred of evidence. loaded with the wrong facts (as seen in your previous posts) walk around believing this stuff.

(eye roll) Where do I even begin? You make a perfect Ron Paul supporter.

Walmart is the enemy too huh? Never mind that they employee

Then tell me, why is it that people are living longer than ever before in the history of the country? One reason are the drugs that you complain about. Speaking from a personal stand point if it were not for those drugs several of my elderly relatives would be dead right now. Are they over prescribed at times? Sure, but that’s because doctors are over sold and thus prescribe too much sometimes.

But everything is a conspiracy with you isn’t it? You live in a very dark place mentally.

Okay, that explains some of this. You served in a prior war and came home not quite the way you went away. Sorry man.

a shit hole with the largest GNP in the world. Ha ha, you are a funny man.

Would you mind generalizing more? Oh wait, you can’t it would be impossible.

Also, I’m still waiting for you to say “you kids get off my lawn.” Isn’t that what nasty narrow minded old people do when they stop thinking?

That’s funny Gingrich (1994 contract with America), along with Bill Clinton brought us workfare. Remember that? No, you’re lost in combination of self deception, generalizations, and just plain sloppy thinking.

Summary:

I think I understand your various positions clearly now. The government is totally corrupt. Both parties are the same (even though they are inherently different). All corporations are evil and they are working with government to destroy the country. ( :slight_smile: ). Large corporations are especially evil no matter how many people they employ or how many free benefits that they give to those employees.

Does that about sum it up?

Okay, here’s an idea, let’s not post back and forth anymore. You are shot and I don’t have the time, or ability to rearrange your thinking so that you can even grasp the most basic of facts.

Bye.
[/quote]

Typical neocon retort. When this depression really hits full steam, maybe then you will admit that we have been living in a dream world for the last few years. Phony money not worth the paper it’s not even printed on.

Yep, you are right ZEB, everything is just fine and dandy right here in 'Murica.

We don’t have the largest gap between the rich and the poor in the industrialized world, the real unemployment numbers aren’t over 15%, we aren’t expanding the wars into Pakistan, we don’t have a problem with immigration, social security isn’t insolvent, bank failures haven’t already topped 100 this year, and the politicians in Washington aren’t bought off and paid for.

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Zeb:

A larger and larger number of the American people…including many whom consider themselves conservative…feel as though the differences in the two parties is merely cosmetic or “around the edges”.[/quote]

I’m not sure I buy into your fuzzy numbers. Either way, the facts remain the only thing standing between this horrible President passing his complete unfiltered socialist agenda were the republicans. It’s cool to talk about how there are no differences, too darn bad it’s just plain wrong.

More nonsense, based upon, what? If you’re talking about certain republicans that seem like democrats, or vice versa, well sure that has happened and always will. But, over all the differences between the two parties are large and striking.

[quote]Dabba wrote:

The problem with this is again a pragmatic one. What major university COULD he have taught at that wasn’t publicly funded? [/quote]

A private one? I am not asking that he forswear working at a place that accepts “public funding” (all do, to some degree) - I am noting that he went to work for the state. You continue to confuse the issue. That isn’t a “pragmatic” problem - it’s one of hyopcrisy.

He isn’t a ilbertarian - he is an anarchist. He calls for the abolition of the state, not just a more robust market that includes, but is perhaps not dominated by, state universities.

Second, how do anarchists achieve their vision of a “free” society? First by living by the very rules they claim to be just that they claim everyone should live by. Again, working for the state undermines whatever anti-statist message he has, because, and I will highlight this…if his “change” isn’t good enough for him to observe, why would anyone else bother observing it?

Just like the adage in response to the global warming hysterics: “I’ll start treating it is a crisis when the people who are telling me it is a crisis start living like it is a crisis.”

Same for the “anarchy rules!” crowd.

Heh, well, that’s just proof that the market can surely work - what they were selling, no one was buying, and there is a good reason.

So a fun question is: why did Rothbard leave a private university in favor of a public one, in light of the fact that he was struggling to raise private funding for his academic pursuits?

I don’t know the answer, but a damn credible theory is that he went somewhere where he didn’t have to “compete” as much for resources.

So, if this is right (and it might not be, but the change seems wanting for explanation), brother Rothbard wasn’t just a government worker - he was a seeker of welfare by his own standards: when the market “got tough”, he wought refuge in the institution of the state.

Uh, are you serious? He didn’t simply think “anarchy” was a nifty alternative lifestyle - he said anarchy was the only just system and that every other system was criminal. Yeah, he insisted we live by these rules, because he did not tolerate intellectual or philosophical compromise - he was just impotent to effect that we live by these rules.

From the article:

Cops must be unleashed, and allowed to administer instant punishment, subject of course to liability when they are in error.

Punishment first, liability only after review of said administered punishment. That’s the absence of due process.

No, there is no degree - it is just plain true. There are no qualifiers.

Well, yes, but you also have to consider what it “voids” - it’s not as though he had some stout, credible body of work that stands on its own strength. Take what he has written - thousands of wasted pages of fringe quackery that few take seriously - and add to the fact that his already flimsy stature of “theory” is undermined by a complete contradiction of his own theory (and also demonstrates a low character) in a later work…yes, it voids his work.

Well, again, it voids it to the extent it wasn’t already self-voiding because of its lack of seriousness, substance, or intellectual rigor.

[quote]Charlemagne wrote:

Typical neocon retort.[/quote]

Yes, makes sense doesn’t it?

We are not yet in a depression. In fact, many economists claim that we are slowly coming out of the recession. Does that fit with your beliefs? No? Shame isn’t it?

I admit it, we’ve been living in a dream world, or maybe an Obama nightmare, one or the other.

You see that? You have been lumping things together and veering off topic. I never once said everything was fine and dandy. In fact, we have a mess on our hands.

[quote]We don’t have the largest gap between the rich and the poor in the industrialized world,[/quote] True we don’t.

I agree they are, if you add up the people who have stopped looking for work. But then I never said otherwise. This is something new you have added to the discussion.

There is no war against Pakistan. Are you dreaming again?

We do have a problem with immigration, but I never once said we didn’t. Once again this is something new you’ve added.

It will be by 2014. Yet again I never said that it wouldn’t be, this is a new topic.

You finally got a fact correct! Yea, congratulations man! However, when you compare the bank failures of this recession with those of the great depression there is quite a difference. !n 1933 alone 4000 banks failed. Now that is quite serious isn’t it? Can you see the difference?

Oh darn you slid back into not being able to back up what you’re claiming. And right after you got the number of bank failures correct. I’d like some evidence that ALL, or even a majority of our politicians have been bribed.

With this post you’ve generally attacked the economy and were on much firmer ground. While you got a lot of things wrong at least you’ve gotten some things right.

Oh, and John S. - still waiting for your defense of Ron Paul’s newsletters. After all, given that Paul is a minor deity who is eminently electable and would right the ship of America, there should be a good explanation that absolves Paul.

Still waiting on your move, slugger

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
He isn’t a ilbertarian - he is an anarchist. He calls for the abolition of the state, not just a more robust market that includes, but is perhaps not dominated by, state universities.[/quote]

Anarchy, at least market anarchy, can be thought of as a subset of libertarianism. There is no one true “libertarianism”.

You cannot live by anarchist rules in a statist society. This does not make you a hypocrite. It makes you someone who doesn’t want to rot in jail or waste their talents being unable to reach a wide audience and not spread their message.

I don’t know the intimate details of the man’s life, nor am I interested at this point in time.

No, no. The resources are monopolized by the state in his field. What’s so hard to get about that?

Ha ha, sure man. Why spend so much time on his so-called hypocrisy, when you could be spending it debunking his actual body of work? Oh wait, it can all be debunked in “less than a paragraph”, right? I would be interested in this killer argument, but I feel like this isn’t the thread for it.

You’re misunderstanding me. He didn’t say that we live by anarchist rules IN a statist system. He advocated the removal of the statist system and its replacement to be an anarchist system.

[quote]From the article:

Cops must be unleashed, and allowed to administer instant punishment, subject of course to liability when they are in error.

Punishment first, liability only after review of said administered punishment. That’s the absence of due process.[/quote]

I’m missing the “crack skulls” part, but I will concede here. He was out of line and hypocritical (which is what I’ve been saying all along).

[quote]Well, yes, but you also have to consider what it “voids” - it’s not as though he had some stout, credible body of work that stands on its own strength. Take what he has written - thousands of wasted pages of fringe quackery that few take seriously - and add to the fact that his already flimsy stature of “theory” is undermined by a complete contradiction of his own theory (and also demonstrates a low character) in a later work…yes, it voids his work.

Well, again, it voids it to the extent it wasn’t already self-voiding because of its lack of seriousness, substance, or intellectual rigor.[/quote]

Your arrogance when it comes to these things undermines your credibility. I know you’re a smart guy, I’ve seen plenty of your posts, but making blanket statements like these about his entire body of work (which I’m sure neither you nor I have even dented) appears to me to be intellectual laziness. Sorry, just calling it like I see it.

Hey…no biggie, Zeb.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

You may want to believe that the GOP will be the “saviours” of the Republic…and that they are the only ones standing between Freedom and the “Obamanistas”.

But the only true difference between them and the Dems is 1) in shifting spending priorities here and there and 2) their rhetoric.

And my “fuzzy numbers” are coming from the surge in the “Constitutionlist” and in the ever-growing Tea Party movement. Maybe they all are just a bunch of pissed of Republicans, conservative Democrats mixed with independents.

Time will tell their actual strength.

Mufasa

[quote]Dabba wrote:

Anarchy, at least market anarchy, can be thought of as a subset of libertarianism. There is no one true “libertarianism”.[/quote]

So what?

I’m not asking for wholesale life changes - anarchists, for example, would have to use public streets or be subject to liability for trespassing.

I’m asking for a modicum of intellectual integrity in practicing what you preach, because if you don’t, you’re a hypocrite. This is particularly true if you are an extremist, as Rothbard most certainly was.

That makes two of us, but I bet the explanation isn’t so good for Mr. Rothbard.

No they weren’t, and libertarians aren’t worried about monopolies at any rate. Rothbard had every opporunity at entering this market (and had already done so); the problem was his “product” in the market - academic “studies” expounding the idea of “anarchism” - was not in demand.

Rothbard tried to sell a product no one wanted. By all accounts, it looks like he went seeking a government handout to keep fueling his “studies” when the private market wouldn’t buy what he was selling.

Debunking anarchism? It’s self-debunking. Humans are not compatible with it, don’t want it and have never wanted it. The burden, really, is on the anarchists to explain why, in the face of refutation of thousands of years of recorded human behavior, anarchism is viable. No one has. Rothbard hasn’t, nor has anyone in these forums.

There’s no arrogance on my part - I am not claiming to “be awesome”. All I am claiming is that the day when Rothbard’s quackery got a fair hearing has long since passed, because all intellectual development must, at some point, move past discredited or flawed ideas. We don’t owe Rothbard’s ideas an open mind or “another shot”, and you are just upset that someone won’t grant some level of respect you think owed to Rothbard’s work because you like the guy, not for any substantive reason.

That ain’t how it works.

I see this trend among many libertarians - this desire to have all ideas “equalized” or else it is unfair. It’s not. Rothbard’s ideas are the equivalent of phrenology or flat-earth ideas, and treating them as anything different is adolescent and intellectually dishonest.

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Hey…no biggie, Zeb.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

You may want to believe that the GOP will be the “saviours” of the Republic…and that they are the only ones standing between Freedom and the “Obamanistas”.

But the only true difference between them and the Dems is 1) in shifting spending priorities here and there and 2) their rhetoric.

And my “fuzzy numbers” are coming from the surge in the “Constitutionlist” and in the ever-growing Tea Party movement. Maybe they all are just a bunch of pissed of Republicans, conservative Democrats mixed with independents.

Time will tell their actual strength.

Mufasa[/quote]

Let’s see, one group of people (the democrats) are for taking the money of people who have actually earned it and spending it to pay for everyones health care. And the other group of people (the republicans) try in full force to stop this, that’s a very big difference in parties. There are many more but I’ll leave it right there. Once again, I agree that some republicans do not act like republicans. One of those republicans was GW, who ran as a conservative and did not serve as one. However, Ronald Reagan, who was our greatest modern day President, ran as a conservative republican and served as one as well.

As for the Tea Party, do you know why it was formed? It was formed out of frustration regarding the runaway spending in the Obama administration. There is no question that they are a factor in this coming election, and I’m glad that they are. If nothing else they will serve to make republicans act and govern as republicans. However, their impact will be muted somewhat by the repeated attacks on them by the mainstream liberal media who hate them with a vengeance that the general public cannot imagine. They will label them as racists idiots who don’t know a ballot box from a hole in the ground. This has already gained some traction. Nonetheless they will be a power of sorts. But the Tea Party is certainly not a libertarian movement by a long shot.

As far as the pure libertarian movement, saying that it is a fart in the wind would be giving it credit that it does not deserve.