The problem with education

Off Topic
21

Just a couple of thoughts.

The biggest factor helping these kids succeed is the parental involvement. I teach at a high school in a large urban district. I have over 180 students in 6 classes. At parent teacher conferences two weeks ago I saw 5 parents. FIVE! And four of those kids had solid A’s.

The problems with public education began when schools stopped being schools and started being social service superstores. I teach 10th graders and sometimes I get very little done curriculum wise because I have to teach 16 year olds how to enter a room and sit down. When one won’t, and I ask him why, he might say “Because I don’t give a fuck”. Oh well, how can I argue with that? Maybe I should call mom . . . I mean grandma. Mom gave up custody long ago because having a kid cut into her social life.

Our district is in a financial crisis like most others in the country because of major cuts in funding. We will lose teachers because there is no money. What else could we cut? Who knows. But let me share a couple of places and see if anybody has any comments.

In my school every kid (2300 total) gets free lunch and breakfast. 25% of those kids’ families can afford to pay full price for lunch, but the state thinks it’s too much of a stigma for them to have to pay, so it’s free. I want to stand behind the counter some days and pass out lunch saying “here, it’s on me.” to every kid. Then after they get their free lunch, they stop off at the vending machines, or fundraising cheerleaders’ table to buy candybars or pizza. Also, I have to mention every kid has a CD player around his or her neck. And CDs to put in them. Cell phones, pagers, fancy shoes, backpacks, purses, etc.

Last week our school administered the PSAT to every 10th grader in school. Over 700 of them. For those of you who don’t know the PSAT is the pre-SAT. It’s designed for kids going to college. 49% of our students graduate, yet we pay to administer a pre-college admission test to every 10th grader. Every school in our district gave the test. How much did that cost?

Save your “you’re one of those teachers who doesn’t care” speeches before anyone thinks of responding. I am also the Varsity Baseball Coach and we have one of the best programs in the state. We demand that our kids are dedicated, respectful, and hard working - on the field and in the classroom (team GPA over 3.0). The reason our kids behave and do well in school is because if they don’t they are off the team. In other words there are consequences for their actions.
Public educators can not hold city kids accountable in the classrooms because there are too many bleeding hearts who give credit to every excuse they have for not trying or succeeding. Look at Andrew Carnegie, Arnold, and any number of small business owners and professionals who made it through adversity. Who does have an easy time making it in this society?

I’m sorry for the rant, but when I read the above info on that school that is “succeeding” compared to others in the state it hit a nerve. Sometimes those “failing” schools are failing because of more than just teachers who don’t teach.

22

I agree with most of the stuff. I don’t know if kids need a 50 hour work week, but they really need more enforcement in the class room. I’m substitute teaching while I’m looking for a job out of college, and some of these kids just don’t care. I never remember myself not caring in school. I might not have always gave it 100% but I at least cared. And I blame that on the parents of these children. I feel my area is going down the shithole. Pretty much everybody that is smart leaves the place by adulthood (25 or so) and the stupid assholes stay. This used to be a nice farming community, now the only people with kids here are welfare cases who do drugs all day. Sorry I’m just ranting. But yeah, kids really need to be pushed a little harder.

23

John K: First of all, that sort of educational model succeeds in burning out more students than it helps. Human beings have limits, and as the japanese have discovered, people can only be pushed so far. Setting that aside, I am particularly riled by your assertion that univerity curriculi outside of the US would “make your head spin.” The US is a leader in university education, and for many reasons that I’m not going to get into here.

It’s a bit of a fad for foreign students to come to the US and talk about how much better their highschool (or equivalent) educations were than the ones we get here. And yet, they still seek out the US universities, and most of them don’t seem to perform any better than the rest of the students.

European educational systems have the luxury of eliminating the students that “can’t cut it,” for whatever reason. If you don’t pass your exams, you’re out. This is a great advantage over our “you’re here til you’re 18, like it or not” system, which ends up pulling everyone else down to the lowest level so that no one’s feelings get hurt.

Finally, about the long work week for these kids. My first reaction was similar to morg’s. But then I remembered that I was a reasonably good kid that lived with parents who hadn’t split up, my mother stayed at home, and I was never predisposed to getting into trouble. While you may be saying “let them be kids,” their childhood activities might actually be joining gangs, ripping stuff off where they can find it, or a variety of other unpleasant, not-so-innocent pastimes.

24

I don’t think 50 hours of school cuts into family time, it cuts into what used to be family time!

25

I agree with most of what cynicalteacher posted, but I want to add that most districts can cut quite a bit of fat at the adminstrative level and be just fine. I’m basing this observation off of the Massachusetts school districts that pay their superintendents around $180,000/year to preside over failing schools, and have multiple layers of administrators between the teachers and the overpaid superintendents, all of whom are overpaid given what they produce – which, to an outside observer like me, looks to be a bunch of excuses for not holding kids to any sort of standards.

They apparently care more about whether the kids feel good about themselves than whether they can read. This is an excellent system, if what you want to produce is a bunch of illiterates who consider themselves entitled to things because they believe they are such good people, irrespective of what they accomplish or contribute to society. If one wishes to produce educated people, perhaps the focus should switch back to education. Hold kids to standards. Teach math, English (grammar and lit), languages, arts, etc.

Quit spending money trying to “raise awareness” about the social cause du jour – morals teaching is the job of families (and this is irrespective of whether you think they are doing well or poorly, and irrespective of whether you agree with the morals of the family in question). My girlfriend teaches middle school in Salem, and they take time out of the school week to have discussions on tolerance and what have you.

Now, you might be tempted to think this is a good thing. And, in a perfect world with unlimited time and resources, you would probably be right. However, when you are dealing with a population of 6-8th graders who are generally reading below grade level, if they are reading at all, and who are mathematically illiterate, it seems to me that the school would be better off focusing its limited resources on teaching them to read and add. It seems that if everyone is in agreement that schools are underfunded, it is imperitive to focus the limited resources on the core mission of the schools: academic education. Not social engineering.

Of course, my girlfriend teaches at this school that is a hippie experiment where they are not allowed to grade the kids on right and wrong answers, but on the effort they perceive the kid has made (yes, this is a public school), so I guess it would be a bit much to expect them to focus on academic instruction and achievement. Literacy? Not essential apparently, as long as the kids feel good about themselves. I mean, what should one expect from a school anyway? Maybe my ideas of reading, writing and arithmetic are outdated, and now schools are simply day cares with self-esteem therapy and group hugs for everyone.

26

If I recall correctly, Germans work less than 40 hour weeks.

I agree that if the kids have no family, then it would be better to be in school. It’s a shame that they would have no family.

But otherwise, there is NO need to work that long. Time spent on school does not have to correlate with increased learning. It’s like in engineering…you do the best you can with the situation in the most efficient way. Sending kids to school for 50 hours a week and then having 2 hours of homework a night would be called over-engineering. There should always be balance, and school should be efficient and productive and SHORT. One teacher could teach a class for 2 hours, but a better teacher could teach the same material in half an hour. Which one is better? There’s no question.

My take is if they have no family, then I guess longer school hours wouldn’t be so bad. But dammit, if they have no family, shouldn’t parents be held responsible in some way? No one is held responsible for anything. For kids with families, however, 50 hours of school a week is rediculous. It should be 35 hours or so, and the kids should spend time with their parents.

27

Got to this thread late. Morg then why is it so many other contries like China are so far ahead of us in grammer school, and high school especially in Mathematics and science.

Do know that they go to school from 6am- sometimes 10pm at night. Mind you this is grammer school and high school. I think we are spoiled here in the US. They are learning caluclus by 9th grade. While were only learning Alegebra.

Its stems from the parents. The problem more then anyonelse.

In Health,

Silas C.

28

Boston Barrister,

When I have kids, I would NOT want the school teaching the kids what’s right and wrong. That’s MY job. Schools should definitely stick to teaching reading, writing, and artithmatic.

Hey, did you hear that story about the “homeschooled” kid that killed his family. The media said things like “the dark side of home schooling.” Isn’t that rediculous? They’re trying to say kids can’t be taught by parents, and that without the schools telling them what to do, all is lost.

29

morg,

I understand a lot of your concerns, and agree with some of them. It is definitely a balancing act. However, I definitely disagree with some of what you state:

"I agree that if the kids have no family, then it would be better to be in school. "

Our kids are poor. Some have no running water. Some live in one room with their 5 brothers and sisters. They want to be at school. On the weeks that we don’t have Saturday school, they complain. When we do have early release at 4:00, they complain. They have families. They all have parents who support them. They realize that their ticket out of the colonias isn’t at home. They know the only way they are going to make a better life for themselves is through education.

“Time spent on school does not have to correlate with increased learning.”

True, it doesn’t have to, but it almost always does.

“It’s like in engineering…you do the best you can with the situation in the most efficient way. Sending kids to school for 50 hours a week and then having 2 hours of homework a night would be called over-engineering.”

It’s nothing like engineering. Kids become better readers by reading. They get better at math by practicing.

"One teacher could teach a class for 2 hours, but a better teacher could teach the same material in half an hour. Which one is better? There’s no question. "

I lecture for less than 30 minutes a day. That’s about 10 minutes per class. There is very little wasted time. My classes run like clockwork, because these kids have been following the same procedures since fourth grade. The rest of the class time is spent solving problems. There is no way you can argue that spending time being kids or talking to their families is going to improve these kids math abilities more than actually solving problems.

"For kids with families, however, 50 hours of school a week is rediculous. It should be 35 hours or so, and the kids should spend time with their parents. "

How is spending time with their parents going to get them out of the colonias? How is it going to teach them Calculus when most of their parents didn’t finish 6th grade? How is it going to teach them to read, when their parents don’t speak English? Their parents are good, hard working people who are trying to make a better life for their kids. They know where their kids’ time is best spent.

30

I agree there should be balance, and classes SHOULD be kept short.

There is no question however, that a 2 hour long class will teach the students better than a 30 minute class, even if they’re sick and tired by the end.

If you’re learning a new skill - martial arts, playing guitar, learning how to paint…the more you spend at it, the better you’ll become.
There’s nothing different about learning Math or Physics or Philosophy.

Most of us wouldnt study on our own unless there was an exam coming. That’s why a 2 hour class would benefit you more, since it would make sure you spend the time needed to let it al sink in your head.

31

doogie = smart

“Prosperity is a great teacher; adversity a greater”

~ William Hazlitt

32

"These are kids for crying out loud. That’s messed up. I only work 40 hours a week and I’m done when I get home. So when do these kids get time to be kids? "

Morg riddle me this:

Why should a kid spend 40 hours/week for over a decade to educate themselves?

A: Because this is how they become successful in a particular career, have a high income, and are educated enough to make wise choices in life rather than following down paths that take them nowhere. You DO care about your kids don’t you?

I seriously doubt you’d rather see your kids being a janitor or handyman for a living, with barely enough to make ends meet, always busting their asses just to see if MAYBE this year they can finally afford a 5 day vacation…instead of seeing them succeed as impressive businessmen with a high income, strong responsibilities, a nice car a beautiful house, and enough to even help YOU get a new car; or maybe they’d become a pilot, a lawyer, a detective, a scientist, a professor, a respected musician/painter (and yes it takes quite a bit of time dedication to achieve either of these as Im sure all artists and musicians will atest to).

Truth is…you gotta do what you gotta do to succeed, and if you let your kids take the easy way with little work so they can ‘be kids’ they will not only not be as successful, they will never toughen up the way I’m sure you want them to. Surely you dont want them to be pussies who whine and cry about anything that takes them away from their play, do you?

Note I fully agree with balancing it out, BUT hard work and time investment will ALWAYS be present to succeed in anything. There’s always someone better than you out there, and unless you prepare yourself fiercely, you will always be one step beind, wether it’s career-wise, or in any other aspect of life.

33

doogie,

I guess I didn’t know enough about the situation before I opened my big mouth.

34

Boston Barrister,

We have three administrators, and they all teach.

“They apparently care more about whether the kids feel good about themselves than whether they can read… If one wishes to produce educated people, perhaps the focus should switch back to education. Hold kids to standards.”

We hold kids accountable by placing them on what we call the Porch. At 7:30 we check homework and if any is missing, the student is Porched. They have to turn their uniform inside out, stand all day, eat lunch alone, walk at the back of the line, and not speak to anyone other than teachers. When they enter classrooms, they are asked by their teacher why they are porched. They must respond with an “I” statement explaining how they failed to meet the expectations that have been placed on them and what they are going to do to fix it. In four years, I’ve heard one parent complain that she thought it hurt her son’s self-esteem. Our principal told her it was going to hurt a lot worse when he was serving BigMacs to his classmates when they come back from college on Christmas break.
“Quit spending money trying to “raise awareness” about the social cause du jour – morals teaching is the job of families (and this is irrespective of whether you think they are doing well or poorly, and irrespective of whether you agree with the morals of the family in question)”

As a parent I agree in theory, but as an educator I know it’s not that simple. Would you want your child attending school with other students who have never been taught any morals? Kids who have no problem stealing from you child, assaulting your child, tormenting you child? Character has to be taught, but it shouldn’t take away from class time. It has to be woven into every subject, every day if it is going to sink in. It has to be part of the expectations the school has for the students. I’m sure you can look back on some teacher that taught you something about character that went beyond what you had already learned at home. We use a program called Character Counts (you can look it up on the web). It’s very subtle, but it gets the job done.

“Of course, my girlfriend teaches at this school that is a hippie experiment where they are not allowed to grade the kids on right and wrong answers, but on the effort they perceive the kid has made (yes, this is a public school), so I guess it would be a bit much to expect them to focus on academic instruction and achievement.”

Shit like that happens because $180,000 a year administrators have to try and distract people from their shortcomings by pretending to be cutting edge and forward thinking. I could type for days about that crap.

35

I’ll just give an example of my experience. Just me. That’s all.

When I was a kid, when I had free time I would be more willing to go back to school to learn and work. If the teachers loaded me up on work and I didn’t have time to do anything (like relax!), then I’d just get pissed, annoyed, and then be less willing to work. Especially when it was stupid worthless crap. So maybe I’m I wuss, but people (and kids) should and probably need time to do things they’re interested in. Hobbies are great, especially if it’s a productive hobby. If school totally ran my life, then how would I have had time to lift and do sports, and develope socially? I mean, I read and research lifting and nutrition for fun. So it’s not like I just sit around and vegetate when I’m not at work.

Just my humble opinion.

36

I take it from Doogies last post that these are mostly children of immigrants. In a traditional family many kids continue the learning process from parents that take time to read to them and help them learn. If the parents cannot read and don’t have the education to help their kids, they know more school may be required, good for them! Doogie, Sounds like you have some hard working parents producing hard working kids. In my humble opinion, kids with parents like these and a resource like your school are at an advantage over many of the kids in the country.

37

Hey! I have an idea. If I have kids I’ll home-school them :smiley: Solves a lot of problems, for sure.

38

morg,

I wasn’t really meaning to argue with you. The whole point of this rant was that throwing money at the problem isn’t going to fix anything. It can be done cheaper and more efficiently.

39

doogie,

I agree 100%. And I’m sorry for talking about something that I didn’t know enough about.

40

There’s a reason that poorer countries around the world kick the shit out of the U.S. in every measure of educational achievement—it’s called WORK ETHIC!!! These countries teach their kids that in order to learn or succeed in life they have to WORK FOR IT! American children spend fewer hours each week and fewer days a year in school than in just about any other country around the world. We should give them time to be kids huh? Why, so they can go home and beat their high-score on the new game they just got for PS2? What the hell ever. They spend their childhood years doing great character-building shit like that so they can grow up and be the average, ignorant American adult with a sub-standard education and absolutely zero work ethic. What a great way to contribute to this country as a productive tax-paying citizen!!! Our children need to spend their school-age years learning how to become educated, productive citizens. You don’t learn those skills by being coddled to and pampered. You need to work your ass off for them…