To others: what leads you to believe in God. There’s a hell of a lot of not-very-convincing arguing going on to convince people that your God has all the self-contradictory properties that the Bible gives him. What makes you all so sure that something is true that you’ll ignore anything that opposes that view. [/quote]
I don’t see ANY arguing going on in order to convince anyone else of anything coming from those who believe in God. I have written many times that my goal is not to force my beliefs on anyone and my goal is not to MAKE you believe anything. Believing in God is clearly a CHOICE and that alone has been the argument. You have made your choice to NOT believe in God. Not one person in this thread has tried to make you believe anything. However, when an atheist tries to degrade my religion or make it seem as if being an atheist means you are more intelligent than someone who believes in God, a debate will be spawned. You are not more grounded or more intelligent than me simply because you have made a choice to think there is no supreme force in this universe. If it took God walking up to you and smacking you in the face, it would not be a choice.
What seems to get to me is, if atheists were truly unfeeling towards the thought of God and if indifference were the guiding force in their life as far as religion, atheists would not debate so fiercly in order to degrade the religious beliefs of others. Funny, huh?
I didn’t say that you were trying to convert anyone. I was asking WHY you made the choice to believe that you have made. I know that it’s a free choice for anyone to make, but surely you must have a decent reason for believing something so fundamental.
I haven’t decided that there is no “supreme force” in this universe. However, I have decided that the Christian portrayal of “God” is untenable. I’m also not claiming that I’m more intelligent than anyone who believes in Christianity. Merely that I believe them to be wrong, and can’t understand their reasoning.
Why should believing in God be a choice? We needn’t be forced to worship him (so we’re not being forced to do anything), but it would seem far more plausible to me that a God who loves us and would like us to worship him should at least make it abundantly clear to all that he exists.
Your last paragraph makes no sense to me. I’m not “unfeeling” towards the thought of God.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
What seems to get to me is, if atheists were truly unfeeling towards the thought of God and if indifference were the guiding force in their life as far as religion, atheists would not debate so fiercly in order to degrade the religious beliefs of others. Funny, huh?[/quote]
You know what else is funny? The fact that these debates seem only to crop up with respect to Christianity. These folks don’t seem to have any bother with, say, Islam, but have apparently devoted untold academic energy to “disproving” Christianity. I have to say I am impressed with the effort. Evidence in itself if you ask me…
[quote]Grey Area wrote:
I didn’t say that you were trying to convert anyone. I was asking WHY you made the choice to believe that you have made. I know that it’s a free choice for anyone to make, but surely you must have a decent reason for believing something so fundamental.
[/quote]
Check this thread and the other one on religion for why I believe. I see no need to retype what I have written several times. I think I made myself pretty clear as far as why I believe in God. I think many others have as well.
I’ve re-read all of your posts on this topic, and you’ve given no indication anywhere of why you believe in God. Which is the other thread in which you give your reasons?
Has anybody heard of quiet confidence? If you are really confident in your views or beliefs for or against you just live it. But I guess we all have that innate desire to debate with each other or express our views.
Bandgeek, my feelings about religion include all religions Muslim, Christianity, a cult worshipping a head of lettuce. If it makes you feel good and gives you meaning in life and it doesn’t interfere with other peoples lives or rights then more power to you!
The thing that bothers me is whether you are Muslim or Christian or Hadi Krishna most feel that they have to convert you to their correct dogma.
[quote]bandgeek wrote:
You know what else is funny? The fact that these debates seem only to crop up with respect to Christianity. These folks don’t seem to have any bother with, say, Islam, but have apparently devoted untold academic energy to “disproving” Christianity. I have to say I am impressed with the effort. Evidence in itself if you ask me…[/quote]
Well, personally I’ve never had Muslims (even hard core ones) tell me I was going to Hell, or a Jew tell me I was evil, or a Hindu say I was a bad person because I hadn’t read all of the Rig Veda. Only Christians have done these things and tried to convert me. So, naturally, I had to learn to defend myself when told “Only evil people reject God. Why are you evil?” and other such things. Christians are the largest and most vocal religious group in America, so non-Christians have has to work on responses to all the statements and questions we get thrown at us.
bandgeek: That fact that atheists struggle against Christians is evidence that it’s true? If that was the case, wouldn’t rampant witch burnings, destruction of holy places and torture of heretics show that paganism is true?
[quote]Grey Area wrote:
I’ve re-read all of your posts on this topic, and you’ve given no indication anywhere of why you believe in God. Which is the other thread in which you give your reasons?[/quote]
As I write this, it is 5 threads below this one. I have faith that you can find it.
You’ve actually happened to hit on something that’s always puzzled me about the whole Bible story. Not to get into a whole discussion but why would a supreme being create the Earth and the human race, then set-up an entire scenerio that is already completely planned out from beginning to end?
[/quote]
Well the bad answer first.
Because it was His will.
Now the good answer.
My belief was He Loved us enough that He created us even though He knew we would kill Him.
Who said He had any power over God? Satan can know his future just like you would. If the Bible is true God says you are on a path to Hell. Plenty of people don’t buy it. I would guess Satan wouldn’t want to either.
Not all Christians believe the Tribulation is coming. Most belive it is on its way. Some believe it already happened in 70 AD. I don’t want to get into it because it is a pointless conversation at this point. Just leave it at not everyone thinks the Anti-Christ is still to come.
[quote]
In terms of sacrifice, your analogy only makes sense if you think God is just a mere mortal like you or I. If you are the creator of life itself, where is the sacrifice?
In my analogy, even though it would be a very minute sacrifice, Bill Gates would still be out $100…God on the other hand could manufacture $100 (or a person) out of thin air, correct?
It’s just hard to think of Jesus, especially if he really was God on Earth, as just a regular guy on one hand and the creator of the Universe on the other. [/quote]
He may not of been a regular guy in the sense you are thinking, but none the less He was tempted, He did suffer pain. On top of that He did it while trying to save the world. Which at the time didn’t seem very appreciative. I would think it might be more of a challenge than you think. He must of under gone extreme stress to sweat drops of blood. So as God He certainly seemed to take it hard. I would think He thought of it as a great sacrifice.
Then again you are using the fact that God can create anything again.
So Lets say some guy is a master carpenter. He bulds his wife this beautiful wood jewelry box that His wife loves. She dies sometime later. The Jewelry box gets broke somehow. The man wanting to preserve the memeory of His wife is crushed because it is broke. He can always build another, or even repair that one. Lets be honest though, It would never be the same.
This is my first post to this topic and I will preface it be stating that I am a Christian and believe in the God of the Bible and Jesus of the New Testament.
As far as those atheists and their questions on this forum, I would like to suggest some resources which may help answer the questions you seem to have. For those who simply wish to debunk Christianity, I pray thst you will look at these sources with an open mind, that is the scientific and logical way to approach it, isn’t it?
Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell
The Case For Christ by Lee Stroebel (and his follow up books as well)
Both of the above were Athiests prior to doing hard research and both began their research trying to disprove Christianity.
This site will give you a compelling arguement against the theory of evolution, which is just a theory, not proven fact. I think it takes more faith to believe in evolution than in Christ myself. Especially if you examine the scientific evidence supporting Christianity.
Finally, If you are dead set against Christianity and holding yourself up as the Uberman (Neitzche), you are making an eternal choice. Might I also suggest actually reading the bible and then formulating your argument. I see several times it is suggested to read Job and it doesn’t appear to have been done.
[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Has anybody heard of quiet confidence? If you are really confident in your views or beliefs for or against you just live it. But I guess we all have that innate desire to debate with each other or express our views.
Bandgeek, my feelings about religion include all religions Muslim, Christianity, a cult worshipping a head of lettuce. If it makes you feel good and gives you meaning in life and it doesn’t interfere with other peoples lives or rights then more power to you!
The thing that bothers me is whether you are Muslim or Christian or Hadi Krishna most feel that they have to convert you to their correct dogma.[/quote]
I am only talking on here because there may be someone who will read this and either
A.) lose faith
b.) totally reject it because they see no good reasons to accept it.
If no one converts I am ok with that. If someone does convert I am ok with that.
I could be wrong. I could be right. I have good reasons to believe what I believe.
The same could be said though of the debates that went on pre-election. If the Dems. where so right why did they keep screaming about how GW is wrong? If the GOP is right why scream?
It is because it is our nature to try to make everyone think like we think.
Ahhh, Philosophy, how I love thee. I will precede my statement as overgeneralized now. I do not want to make this a long post because they are boring to read. SOOO…going on the premise that premises for you conclusion are correct there is a problem of metaethics. Good and evil has to be defined, before you can say the God cannot be Omni-everything.
For instance, one might say the tsunami was evil, you know killed lots of people, caused great suffering. Another, could argue for the good the tsunami did, lowered populations on over crowded countries or maybe pull warring nations/people together for the common cause of mercy irregardless of race, religion, etc…
Another example is good old Osama. We hate him, he deserves to die. The muslims love him, he is a liberator to them…So who is right? We are of course, but why can’t they see they are wrong? What do they know that we don’t? The fact is that he may have a point on somethings, though this far from justifies his means.
Bottom line, I don’t know anybody who can define good and evil, we as conscious beings seem to have a sense of what it means, but putting words to it has been unsuccessful, for centuries.
Another philosophical argument deals with the temporal realm with live in, how can God know everything and yet we have freewill…discussion for another time. I wrote a huge term paper on determinism vs. freewill…Oddly enough the determinists tend to be atheists and the freewillists tend to be theists…Go figure…
It was long anyway…sorry.
If it makes you feel good and gives you meaning in life and it doesn’t interfere with other peoples lives or rights then more power to you!
Haney, ones religious beliefs can be carried out without affecting another person. The political front has a direct affect on our lives. As with the current war whether you are for it or against.
As I read through this thread, it became starkly apparent that R.S.U. doesn’t agree with the Judeo/Christian God,and took some advice from the thread that this arguement originated from.It looks like he decided to be his own god. So he started this thread and laid out the parameters for his own little world.In this world it is not required for you to abide by any universal order, you must abide by the conditions laid out by R.S.U., or he will reject you by saying that your logic is flawed.No wisdom is required either. To have any level of acceptance for events beyond your own control is in voilation of the above stated conditions. Any understanding of Free Will is a blatant indicator that your reasoning is unsound,Because that is not within the parameters of R.S.U.s’ world.Any ideas including the entertainment of the thought of Free Will are subject to imediate dismissal.
To consider that some universal entity has a very good reason for doing what it does, or letting happen what happens is grounds for Imediate rejection from R.S.U.s’ world.
This whole thread is an exercise in absolute power. R.S.U.s’ absulute power.That absolute power has corrupted him absulutely.He doesn’t have the ballance or wisdom to fathom a god that can exist as Christians and Jews believe to exist. He wants to place his own conditions on God, thus putting him in control of God.
Well too bad R.S.U. It doesn’t work that way. Not in the universe that is shared by the rest of humanity.Regardless of whether or not you accept that.
Now I am going to go exercise some free will and do whatever I damn well please, evil or not. Just because I can. HAHAHA!
p.s. If you are still hung up on that disaster in Asia, try doing something to aleviate the suffering. Free will applies to that too.
rocksolid: answersingenesis.com is possibly the worst example I can think of to convince people that creationism is true and evolution doesn’t occur. Sites such as that completely misunderstand the scientific method and are deliberately ignorant.
The Case for Christ was lent to me by a Christian friend who said that it was very good. However, the arguments it presents are riddled with logical flaws. To be honest, this book made me start to doubt the validity of religious studies qualifications. Some of the people in the book had some very esteemed qualifications but still gave arguments that were completely nonsensical.
The problem evangelical christians have is that they think that creationism and evolution are mutually exclusive and they are not. Why is it imposible to believe that evolution exists and God made it that way? Or God created man as a part of the evolutionary structure? The evidence for evolution is strong, to discount it is obsurd. I am assuming these normally smart people are fitting creationism stories in with flawed logic is because they want to get to heaven and thier pastors told them they had to or they will got to hell.These people would also likely argue that Jesus turned water into grape juice.
The other thing many people haven’t figured out is that the bible is not a book of fact, it is a book of truth. It’s philosophy book. It does not require that everything in bible actually happened. It for illustrating truth. If facts support the truth, it is used, if not, a good story or parable will do the trick. The Old Testament in is way to problomatic. I do not see a way for those facts to be varifiable, but the lessons learned are good lessons.
“The Case for Christ” is an O.K. book; however it does have some weak points. There are much more convincing authors, who wrote more intriguing works. For instance: Thomas Merton, C.S. Lewis, G.K. Chesterton, and Thomas Aquanis. I have recommended books by these men on other threads. What was so intriguing to me was the fact that most of these men where extremely intelligent. They defended their faith with sound logic that was not blind. The material is presented as a man seeking to find the truth, not a sheep simply following the herd. I recommend these authors to all, even if you are not a believer.
haney…
"Well the bad answer first.
Because it was His will.
Now the good answer.
My belief was He Loved us enough that He created us even though He knew we would kill Him"
really? does god love us more than he loves a tiger? more than a mosquito? Isn’t one of gods aspects that he loves all things unconditionally? or at least jesus’s thing? so then how can he love one thing more or enough that he would give us free will and not others. Free will could be a myth or the only reality and none of us will ever know. Or possibly we will never know… possibly we will. Logically your answers don’t provide any proof of anything other than the fact that you wish to believe one story over another because you were raised that way. I would be much more impressed with a christian who had converted from being a muslim or jew or other religion at least then they would have made a decision that wasn’t spoon fed them throughout thier childhood.
To say that answersingenesis.org has flawed science seems to speak of ignorance on your part. There are a host of learned scientists who contribute.
As far as evolution goes, I think many people confuse it with natural selection. Natural selection happens in the world, but show me one evolutionary event in the last 2000 years. If anything we are breaking down as a world, not evolving into a more complex world. Any mutations which occur are a lesser or worse off form of the original, not an improvement.
The complexity of the universe in and of itself implies intelligent design. The odds of you and I occuring randomly are unfathomable. I think it takes more blind faith to believe in evolution and be an atheist than to believe in God and be a Christian.