[quote]ToShinDo wrote:
If revelation 20 and 21 do come true, then free will might be removed. We become like the Angels, and we are there to worship God.
Okay, haney is saying that angels do not have free will, and randman is saying they do. Which is right?
[/quote]
Actually I think it was Prof X who stated that they have free will. Satan’s fall was not the same as Adam and Eve’s.
Satan’s came from pride. Not choosing to know good and evil. It also does not give us enough information of what went on that lead to his fall. Other than He said I will be like the most High. I would love to talk more about it, but unfortunatly I don’t think there is enough information to discuss his situation. All that we know is that we were created weaker than the Angels but put above them. That is found in the book of Hebrews if you want to look it up.
God could of given Satan free will. As I said it doesn’t state enough for me to talk about it. All I know is what it says about the other Angels. One must wonder though why atonement was not offered to Satan, but it was offered to us? Obviously God see it as different.
ssong2, if our freewill is offlimits to God’s power then he is really not all powerful. The only thing that dictates God’s power is his “nature”, which is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. This is the same thing that guides our freewill, our “nature”.
Foreknowledge does not equal forordained. So if He knew ahead of time that does not mean he forces men’s decisions upon them.[/quote]
I’ve been having a discussion with a philosopher friend of mine and she has been arguing this very position as devil’s advocate. Our argument hinges on the notion of space-time, and where God fits into it.
It appears quite complicated, but I am maintaining my position that God’s omniscience itself prevents us from having free will.
If you dislike this position, we can ignore it and I can resort to my other point: what of “evil” that arises from natural occurances; that is not from the actions or will of humans.
[quote]
Within that God has also put Himself under certain laws for our existance. Example being God said He would never cover the face of the earth with water again to destroy mankind. He also has given us free will, which you state is under subjection. I have to ask why? If you are bringing these attributes that are claimed by Christians why can we not bring the other part of the argument that God gaves us free will? It seems you are kicking the wheels off the cart and then asking the believers to push.[/quote]
I don’t think it is relevant, but I see why you’re stuck on it. See my previous reply re: natural disasters.
[quote]
Agreed God wants nothing but good all the time. That is why If you are not in His grace your punishment would be eternal seperation from God.[/quote]
Would this seperation be good to all parties involved? If not than something not good exists in a world controlled exclusively by God – thus, he can’t be all good.
[quote]
You seem to want to pick and choose parts of the belief system to pick apart. You must take a look at the whole picture. You are also trying to define GOd’s Soveriegnty, something every Christain that I know would tell you is not easily defined.[/quote]
You don’t need to look at the whole picture. The argument I’ve laid out matters only when considering the components in relationship to each other, while adding a simple observation about the world.
[quote]
So God would
Know who the one redeemed soul would be. (remember foreknowledge does not equal foreordained by God.)
Be able to control all things until the destruction of time.
Be Good in the sense of Righteousness, and mercy towards that one sinner.
Contend with that evil until the His will is fulfilled.[/quote]
This destruction in “2.” would be the result of God’s doing, no? He is all-powerful.
This makes no sense.
And we’ve come full circle. To this I refer to the beginning of the post.
[quote]blakjak wrote:
ssong2, if our freewill is offlimits to God’s power then he is really not all powerful. The only thing that dictates God’s power is his “nature”, which is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. This is the same thing that guides our freewill, our “nature”.
That’s all I got time for right now…I’ll be back.
-blak[/quote]
Our freewill is offlimits to God’s power by his own will and design. That doesn’t really diminish his power.
We human beings have advanced to a point where we can invent aritficial intelligence that can follow our directions exactly. But if some programmer were to create an artifical intelligence with freewill that no designer can influence, doesn’t it make the programmer more powerful programmer than others?
Foreknowledge does not equal forordained. So if He knew ahead of time that does not mean he forces men’s decisions upon them.
I’ve been having a discussion with a philosopher friend of mine and she has been arguing this very position as devil’s advocate. Our argument hinges on the notion of space-time, and where God fits into it.
It appears quite complicated, but I am maintaining my position that God’s omniscience itself prevents us from having free will.
If you dislike this position, we can ignore it and I can resort to my other point: what of “evil” that arises from natural occurances; that is not from the actions or will of humans.
[/quote]
That would fall under once man fell everything in the Earth was put on a time limit for destruction. I would also cite that God makes all things beautiful in His time. So certain situations may seem evil to us they may not be evil in the sense of what God considers evil.
Well think of this discussion as macro attributes of God. Certain Micro attributes help us desipher the bigger picture
Well if it serves to fulfill God’s justice then I would assume it would be. You punish children when they get out of line, God punishes us when we disobey. Would you say punishment of a child is wrong, or does it serve good for all parties in the long run?
I think you are leaving out certain components that go with it, and might explain some of the points that you are trying to make. As I said justice seems to be very important to God.
I ask again. who’s standard are we using for good?
If God were to wipe out all evil tonight who would be left?
If God does close the door on evil existing, then He closes the door to His mercy.
The destruction would fulfill His judgement of all evil in the world.
I am sorry I thought I was answering your four points. If it did not come across that way, then I apologize.
[quote]
I am sure you will see problems with that because God allowed us to choose evil. At that point though we would become robots, and no longer be created in His image. It is free will that makes us created in His image.
And we’ve come full circle. To this I refer to the beginning of the post.[/quote]
Well I seriously doubt you will be satisfied with any other opinion than the one you have already formed.
I am sure there are many books out there on Christian philosphy that would help you better than I could. Philosphy is not where my main focus is on defending the faith. I usually just try and explain the Christian position that I have come to on it(by that I mean the one I have aquired myself, not taught by a pastor). You might be Interested in Something from R.C. Sproul.
As usual, this type of discussion gets a little unruly, but I’ll throw in my 2 cents at this late position anyway.
Normally the problem of evil is usually brought up as a way to overturn the idea of God’s goodness, or even His existence. Is this the point of the discussion RSU?
We can just as well say that your inability to reconcile these supposed contradictions in logic merely proves man’s reasoning ability is not capable of understanding everything about God’s nature, and the world that He created.
There is something else that has been overlooked in this discussion- God doesn’t actually care that much about your body. If you live a life in a wheelchair or go around blind is not really the point. It doesn’t bother Him that much. (“Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand” Jeremiah 18:6) My children began to interact with God after learning about Him in Sunday school. Maybe you will learn to interact with God while lying in a burn unit. Whatever physical pain a person suffers is irrelevant. God’s concern is your soul, and your spiritual interaction with Him.
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
As usual, this type of discussion gets a little unruly, but I’ll throw in my 2 cents at this late position anyway.
Normally the problem of evil is usually brought up as a way to overturn the idea of God’s goodness, or even His existence. Is this the point of the discussion RSU?
We can just as well say that your inability to reconcile these supposed contradictions in logic merely proves man’s reasoning ability is not capable of understanding everything about God’s nature, and the world that He created.
There is something else that has been overlooked in this discussion- God doesn’t actually care that much about your body. If you live a life in a wheelchair or go around blind is not really the point. It doesn’t bother Him that much. (“Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand” Jeremiah 18:6) My children began to interact with God after learning about Him in Sunday school. Maybe you will learn to interact with God while lying in a burn unit. Whatever physical pain a person suffers is irrelevant. God’s concern is your soul, and your spiritual interaction with Him. [/quote]
Mr. Chen,
You are right on in saying that God is concerned with your soul, and spiritual interaction with him. I never bring this point up in my posts however, do to the trouble many will have grasping this particular concept. Christians believe that a soul is eternal, therefore nothing is more valuable. All things in this world will pass, consequently one soul is more valuable then all else.
To address the main question of the thread you must look at the true definition of evil which haney already brought to the boards. Evil is anything that takes you further away from God. I know that this does not explain many of the things that have been brought up such as natural disasters and the like. However, having faith requires one to sometimes accept that there are questions that have no answers. When attempts are made to answer these questions the argument becomes circular and one begins to realize that there is the same amount of evidence on both sides of the fence. This sets up the way God wanted it nicely, in other words in prompts one to choose to believe. This forces us to use or God given free will. If the teacher gave all answers to the test, you will not learn much. There are some that will not believe no matter what. Gods coming to earth and consequent death proves this.
Anyway that is my 2 cents. I am not used to arguing about my faith all that much which is probably obvious from my post on other threads. One thing that I did notice however is that atheists seem very competent when is comes to defending their disbelief. I guess this is good if one of your goals in life is to be a great debater. I really do not see how it helps anyone. I study and practice Christianity so I can be closer to God which in turn will cause me to live my life in such admirable way that I can influence other people to question why? Hopefully this will plant a seed and cause them to take a long hard look at Christianity. If someone is a true praticing Christian, and a atheist turns them away from the faith, how has this helped either of them? God Bless you all.
Normally the problem of evil is usually brought up as a way to overturn the idea of God’s goodness, or even His existence. Is this the point of the discussion RSU?[/quote]
You are correct in the former, not the latter. I don’t think the Problem of Evil addresses God’s existence – it does a great job in addressing the three attributes and pointing out that they cannot be simultaneously be held.
[quote]Right Side Up wrote:
I don’t think the Problem of Evil addresses God’s existence – it does a great job in addressing the three attributes and pointing out that they cannot be simultaneously be held.
[/quote]
I would rather see you answer the second part of my post, as it is much more important. The apparent contradiction you have suggested is just like the issue of Christ being fully man, yet fully God at the same time. I’m sure you are familiar with this doctrine as well. Why do you suppose you can understand them completely. In fact, I would say it is illogical for you to assume so.
[quote]Right Side Up wrote:
The Problem of Evil can now be outlined logically:
Given Premise 1: God is all-knowing
Given Premise 2: God is all-powerful
Given Premise 3: God is all-good
Observed Premise 4: But, Evil exists
Conclusion 1: Therefore, God cannot simultaneously possess all three of the given characteristics. [/quote]
Personally I’m not religious because I’m too much of a logical thinker and I’ve thought about many things similar to your post that I can’t get past. Like why if you created the entire Universe is sacrificing your only son (like you couldn’t have more?) such a big deal? (Hi I’m Bill Gates, here’s $100 for the Tsunami relief fund.) Not making fun of, but just that line of thought.
Back to topic, if you consider Earth and the physical being vs spiritual Heaven and God as being two very separate places, God himself could be all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good. Since God gave Satan dominion over the Earth, evil only exists in the physical realm. I personally don’t think, if God exists, he has any input into what happens on Earth AT ALL. I think people believe he does but bad things happen to good people all the time. Innocent children are murdered, tsunami’s happen, evil people become President. You hear just as many people crying about “why did God do this to us” as you do people saying “it’s a miracle from God.”
“If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you’d expect from an office temp with a bad attitude.”
-George Carlin
[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
Right Side Up wrote:
“If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you’d expect from an office temp with a bad attitude.”
-George Carlin[/quote]
May a mongrel dog piss on George’s grave every morning.
Personally I’m not religious because I’m too much of a logical thinker and I’ve thought about many things similar to your post that I can’t get past. Like why if you created the entire Universe is sacrificing your only son (like you couldn’t have more?) such a big deal? (Hi I’m Bill Gates, here’s $100 for the Tsunami relief fund.) Not making fun of, but just that line of thought.
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Well I guess it is a big deal since He thought it was important enough to bother with it. I mean why try? just destroy the whole place and call it a good day. I think the Bible does a good job of explaining it.
Romans 5
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Who would dies for someone that is not a good person? Also I think you are forgetting the other part of the equation. Most Christians think Christ was God. So God allowing Himself to die for us would kind of seem like a big deal.
So you analogy should be more like Bill Gates saying Here is my entire fortune, and all the rights to Microsoft. Also I am going to go and sacrifice my life to save as many victims of the disaster as I can.
[quote]hspder wrote:
Right Side Up wrote:
(3) OMNIBENEVOLENCE – This means God is “all-good.” It means that there is nothing God does or wants that isn’t good.
Conclusion 1: Therefore, God cannot simultaneously possess all three of the given characteristics.
Please… Even I, being an atheist, can see that your logic is overly simplistic (a nice way of saying: flawed).
Nobody can define what is “Good”. Christians will quickly argue that the existance of Evil is necessary because if there was no Evil people would not value Good and God, and would not grow and Love Him. That’s what the whole “Being thrown out of Paradise” thing is about, and, for a more recent example, that’s what the whole Matrix Trilogy is about.
Monotheists generally believe having to deal with Evil is Good for you as a person. So the existance of Evil is Good.
If you find that absurd and illogical, it’s not, even if you’re an atheist - after all, even if we are here as a product of Evolution and Natural Selection (as I personally believe we are), our Human duality and ability of being incredibly Evil some times and incredibily Good at others can in some light be considered “Good” because it allowed us to prevail.
So, again, the key here is that you cannot define Good. Nor Evil, for that matter… These are extremely subjective…
Even if you could define Good, something can be a Good Thing in the short run and an Evil Thing in the long run (or vice-versa!). So, which one to pick?
And then there’s the old adage:
The Good of the Many outweighs the Good of the few (or the One)
Need I go on?
[/quote]
this is a classic Phil 101 question.
hspedr
Intro to philosophy usually covers this exact concept for a few weeks. Its not really simplistic at all. I spent a couple weeks debating the idea with about 90 other students from all different backgrounds and if it can cause that kind of a discussion it is in no way simplistic.
However one of the arguments is relative goodness over evil.
There is no evil only things with less good than another. So on a scale of 1-10 of goodness everything would be ranked and therefore nothing evil. Genocide would be a 1 and murder a 3 and eventually moving into the upper levels of goodness of 7 being selflessness and so on. This is pretty much the argument of “what defines good?”.
I think its a load of BS and based on the ideas of a book thats been translated many times across languages that don’t translate well and changed at the whim of many rulers. To base an argument on a book that was an omnipotent being’s words being translated by imperfect beings and interpreted countless ways by more imperfect beings is ridiculous.
As Far as the Matrix goes, thats another basic philosophical concept. The allegory of the cave/The world of forms. It’s a whole different argument but it more closely parallels The Matrix.
dang sorry I left this thread for so long… been busy.
Ok here is another spin on things… also purely speculative but it makes sense to me.
Isn’t the desire to do good, genetically programmed into us? just like the desire to have children is genetically programmed. why is the world civilized? because a vast majority of people for most of thier existance realize that to ensure the survival of the human species, people other than themselves needed to eat drink and have children. When we help other people eat drink and have children… These are the basic good deeds people started doing. as society has evolved and complexified (word?) itself. Good deeds have diversified a multitude as well. the human race itself would never seek to destroy itself… it is not within our genetic programming to be capable of such things. Could one being destroy the rest of the human race? Possibly.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
the human race itself would never seek to destroy itself… it is not within our genetic programming to be capable of such things.[/quote]
I disagree with this. While we may have the desire to build “societies” however small, we destroy this planet on a daily basis and destroy each other through war. That may not be an intentional attempt at “social suicide”, but it seems to be a part of our nature. I think you would find many arguments that “war” is not “good” just like destruction of the ecosystem is not “good”. Man is responsible for more extinctions of different species than any other animal on this planet. Is that “good”? I think many here put themselves on pedestals as if they can’t see their own faults. Man is a faulted creature with many shortcomings in spite of many of the superior features that make us human. You can’t ignore the “bad” to only focus on the “good”. Many would argue that it is in our very nature to destroy even more than we build.
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
JustTheFacts wrote:
Right Side Up wrote:
“If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you’d expect from an office temp with a bad attitude.”
-George Carlin
May a mongrel dog piss on George’s grave every morning. [/quote]
If the dog does piss on his grave, George ain’t gonna be alive to care. Why such a hater, Mr. Chen?
RSU: I don’t believe in evil (or good) having some kind of presence in anything but our respective human imaginations, but I think that the theists have answered your philosophical challenge pretty well.
The argument of evil breaks down once you are able to say that evil is undefined. This means that omni-benevolence is not definable, and then the existence of Christian God can happen. There have been a number of ways that they showed evil as undefined, so I’d have to say that the believers got this one.
The free will argument is pretty good, too. You see, if you’re able to say that God is choosing to let you fail, then the “problem of evil” just goes away, doesn’t it? God CAN have all three “omni’s”, if he’s going to let you do your own dirty work. The omni-benevolence isn’t violated that way. I do like Toshindo’s take on the free will thing, too. Think about it: God has omnipotence and omniscience, ergo he values our free will more than goodness. What a guy!
I just thought of something. We’ve been going back and forth for like years now about the existence and/or nature of God, etc. And really, the question takes more than a simple logic test to answer. But… I can prove that there’s a devil.
Jessica Simpson and that guy from Nsync (or whatever boy band it was) had a hit TV show… therefore there is most definitely a devil!
I just thought of something else. What if Paris Hilton still has a little bit of her soul left to trade for a singing career? We’re screwed. Damn you Satan!
Well I guess it is a big deal since He thought it was important enough to bother with it. I mean why try? just destroy the whole place and call it a good day. I think the Bible does a good job of explaining it.
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You’ve actually happened to hit on something that’s always puzzled me about the whole Bible story. Not to get into a whole discussion but why would a supreme being create the Earth and the human race, then set-up an entire scenerio that is already completely planned out from beginning to end?
If Satan has control of the Earth, and his only power over God is deception, how do you know that the Bible itself (written and interpeted many times by man) is not a trick to get mankind to destroy itself? Isn’t the Bible kind of like a road map that leads you right off a cliff (Armegeddon)? Something to think about considering Satan’s reading out of the same playbook.
But of course that’s just silly…how could a real Christian be fooled into championing an all out conflict in the Middle East? Between the Christian organization “DoD” and the millions of faithful on constant watch, Satan’s plans have little chance of succeeding. Hopefully we still have enough time to destroy all God’s enemies before Satan rears his ugly head…it would help if we knew exactly where he was? Hmmm, I guess that’s why God gave us cluster bombs and nuclear weapons…it may be the only way to stop Satan in time.
In terms of sacrifice, your analogy only makes sense if you think God is just a mere mortal like you or I. If you are the creator of life itself, where is the sacrifice?
In my analogy, even though it would be a very minute sacrifice, Bill Gates would still be out $100…God on the other hand could manufacture $100 (or a person) out of thin air, correct?
It’s just hard to think of Jesus, especially if he really was God on Earth, as just a regular guy on one hand and the creator of the Universe on the other.
Right Side Up: follow the link I gave a way up the thread for a great discussion of whether foreknowledge removes free will. Before I read it, I was adamant that if something had already been seen then you couldn’t possibly have free will. Now I’m not so sure.
To others: what leads you to believe in God. There’s a hell of a lot of not-very-convincing arguing going on to convince people that your God has all the self-contradictory properties that the Bible gives him. What makes you all so sure that something is true that you’ll ignore anything that opposes that view.
