The Philosophy of Liberty

[quote]NickViar wrote:
6. If you don’t think you need to be told how to live, you might be an anarchist.
7. If you neither believe that you can judge values for others, nor others for you, you might be an anarchist.[/quote]

Substitute “people in general” for “you” in the first one and these are both ridiculous.

I am perfectly comfortable “judging values for” Jeffrey Dahmer, and I’m perfectly certain that he needed to be told how to live.

I cannot wrap my head around the fact that idealism like this still exists in the quantities that it does. The kind of idealism that makes people say squares have five sides and carrots are always green.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:
6. If you don’t think you need to be told how to live, you might be an anarchist.
7. If you neither believe that you can judge values for others, nor others for you, you might be an anarchist.[/quote]

Substitute “people in general” for “you” in the first one and these are both ridiculous.

I am perfectly comfortable “judging values for” Jeffrey Dahmer, and I’m perfectly certain that he needed to be told how to live.

I cannot wrap my head around the fact that idealism like this still exists in the quantities that it does. The kind of idealism that makes people say squares have five sides and carrots are always green.
[/quote]

You don’t need to judge values for Dahmer. He violated others’ rights. HE was the one attempting to judge values for others. It’s important to note that the state did not prevent his crimes.

Someone wanting to control his own life is hard to understand, but the body counts and forced servitude of all of history’s states is easy?

[quote]NickViar wrote:
You don’t need to judge values for Dahmer. He violated others’ rights. HE was the one attempting to judge values for others.[/quote]

I’m not exactly sure what “judge values” means so it would probably be better for us to speak concretely.

Anarchy is the absence of state and thus law. People like Dahmer make law necessary. Therefore, people like Dahmer make anarchy stupid.

In my value system, unprovoked murder is not OK. In Dahmer’s, it was. I had to assert my own value system over his in order to stop him. That’s all law is, all it ever has been, and man has been eminently assiduous in affirming and affirming and reaffirming law’s necessity for millennia.

[quote]
It’s important to note that the state did not prevent his crimes.[/quote]

It prevented future crimes, which is all that can be reasonably expected in most cases.

[quote]
Someone wanting to control his own life is hard to understand, but the body counts and forced servitude of all of history’s states is easy?[/quote]

We are not living in “all of history’s states.” You don’t have to convince me that it was a drag to live under Stalin or Nero or any of the Louises. I’m with you there.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
We must turn to God and Pray, and He has promised to heal our land.
[/quote]
A. What if He decided to break His promise?

B. Our land? Isn’t it His land?

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:
You don’t need to judge values for Dahmer. He violated others’ rights. HE was the one attempting to judge values for others.[/quote]

I’m not exactly sure what “judge values” means so it would probably be better for us to speak concretely.

Anarchy is the absence of state and thus law. People like Dahmer make law necessary. Therefore, people like Dahmer make anarchy stupid.

In my value system, unprovoked murder is not OK. In Dahmer’s, it was. I had to assert my own value system over his in order to stop him. That’s all law is, all it ever has been, and man has been eminently assiduous in affirming and affirming and reaffirming law’s necessity for millennia.

[quote]
It’s important to note that the state did not prevent his crimes.[/quote]

It prevented future crimes, which is all that can be reasonably expected in most cases.

[quote]
Someone wanting to control his own life is hard to understand, but the body counts and forced servitude of all of history’s states is easy?[/quote]

We are not living in “all of history’s states.” You don’t have to convince me that it was a drag to live under Stalin or Nero or any of the Louises. I’m with you there.[/quote]

Sorry, trying to type on a Nook-hard to mess with quotes. When I first mentioned “values,” I believe I was talking about the values of goods and services, but I may be mistaken. However, the fact that Dahmer showed that he did not value life makes his also worthless, hence his can be taken in defense. Now, in a privatized society, the company he chooses to defend him may impose such an astronomical cost on him(after finding him guilty of his crimes) that his only choices would be to commit himself to a secure facility, or go out amongst those who know what he has done without defense-he probably wouldn’t last long. Also, you own your body and life, so Dahmer has no right to either.

Anarchy is the absence of a state(agency with monopoly on both use of force and power to tax in a given area-an area which is not owned by that agency or a single entity in charge of that agency). The lack of a state does not rule out the possibility of law-private law. Yes, I know that is terrible because the wealthy would be able to do whatever they want, etc. However, I wonder what would have happened to a poor, black man if he had been put in OJ’s place during the trial over Nicole Simpson’s murder?

Does the fact that a majority always has to approve of its leader in order for said leader to remain in power make you question your support? I’m not saying our elected officials are at the level of a Hitler or Stalin yet(I think our current president is better than, or at least no worse than, plenty of past ones-the same goes for the rest of the government), but the majority of their citizens approved of them(or at least accepted them). I’m not sure that nationalism/patriotism is the best way to gain freedom.

I would also like to thank you for turning me on to anarchy/libertarianism-I was opposed to anarchy, despite knowing nothing about it, until being forced to look into it a bit after being accused by you of being an anarchist in a previous thread.

I’m not a fan of utopian theories. I can’t predict how the market would work itself out if left alone. I trust myself to manage my life better than others.

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]squating_bear wrote:
Oh yea, dunno how I forgot to work this in. The one really funny thing I’ve found about anarchists is that they act like they’ve got something better

That’s where the selling points sound funny

Instead just point out that if you think you need guns to protect yourself from tyranny, you already are an anarchist

THEN, if that’s true - how does this understanding change the way ‘we’ think we should do stuff[/quote]

If I understand your post, I thought that way about anarchy until recently. How about these:

  1. If you believe you own your life, you might be an anarchist.
  2. If you believe all goods should compete against each other on equal ground, you might be an anarchist.
  3. If you believe you own your property, you might be an anarchist.
  4. If you can’t imagine being stranded, Gilligan-style, somewhere that may be inhabited by dangerous people and animals, and handing your weapons to another to protect you, you might be an anarchist.
  5. If you believe a smaller, more local government is better than a massive national state, you might be an anarchist.(If not, how small is too small?)
  6. If you don’t think you need to be told how to live, you might be an anarchist.
  7. If you neither believe that you can judge values for others, nor others for you, you might be an anarchist.
  8. If you don’t think you have to be forced to purchase that which you value, you might be an anarchist.
  9. If you don’t believe you have rights which others do not, you might be an anarchist.
  10. If you believe one funny thing about statists is that they believe they have something better(After all, it’s obvious that allowing everyone equal rights could never work. We HAVE to give others the power to make decisions for us. I mean, just think about the terrible things that could possibly happen in a free society! People could even be imprisoned or killed for their ethnicity, or something.), you might be an anarchist.[/quote]
    I’m not really sure what you’re asking me here

Are you asking me if I agree/disagree with the ideas proposed?
Are you asking if I think its reasonable that one who does agree/disagree with the ‘ifs’, then they might be an anarchist? (sure they might, but they also might not)

Or are you imitating that comedian who went ‘if you ___ you might be a redneck’?

No offense, I think your ten points are weaker than my one. Its not my style, but they read like ten targets. If I can only just knock down a few… that’s the natural instinct


I disagree with your concept of what govt is

There is no monopoly on the use of force. I hear this repeated somewhat often by anarchists, but I do not get it

The tax part is much stronger, but I still don’t feel that it’s accurate. You ever seen Godfather II?
“I just want to wet by beak a little”. I’d call that a tax. One might call ‘the’ Mafia a government if they wanted, but not a state

If anarchy is lack of state/govt, then we really need to drill down on what exactly a state/govt exactly is. Sure we could probably turn to a dictionary or something - but whats the fun in that?

Earlier I said its just the biggest/strongest group, but that is mighty simplistic and could be wrong. I like simplistic. The ‘problem’ with these definitions are that it literally makes anarchy impossible as above defined. You’ll always have a group that is the biggest/strongest. However, hold your horses - you might like this

If the ONLY defining characteristic used to determine what a govt is, is just its relative size/strength compared to the surroundings, then its pretty much lost its magical thunder. What’s the difference between the US govt vs. the mafia vs. Google vs. Apple? The US govt is biggest/strongest. If the mafia were biggest/strongest, we would call it da gubmint

If you like that thought process then its time to take it back to the beginning and see if it can come full circle. Are you REALLY all that confident that even tho there will always be a biggest/strongest group, it would be optimal if that group were not in some way made up of all the people a la for example a limited govt type of democratic and constitutional republic?

I’m not talking about a biggest/strongest group that calls itself that stuff but then acts like the biggest/strongest mafia. I’m saying even after disbanding a tyranny for example, is it really best to just leave it blank, especially when you consider that it won’t be blank for long? Something will fill that void, why not everyone? Actually, in order for something to not fill that void you would pretty much need everyone acting in harmony to prevent it

:slight_smile:

The ultimate tyranny (ok, actually it might be possible to do this without the ultimate tyranny…)

Alright, now I just about done gone lost it - sleepytime

[quote]NickViar wrote:
Now, in a privatized society, the company he chooses to defend him may impose such an astronomical cost on him (after finding him guilty of his crimes)
[/quote]

Wait, Dahmer gets prosecuted by his own defense contractor? I thought it would be that of one of his victims. What if he has none? Is he going to be tried and convicted and imprisoned by somebody else’s?

And why must they first find him guilty? Who says that this must be, and who enforces it? The invisible hand? So if such a company turns corrupt and begins convicting people who are deemed economic competitors of it, without trial, then that’s only going to stop when enough people catch on and take their business elsewhere?

And who settles the trillions of disputes (per minute) that are going to arise between separate people with separate defense contractors?

Let’s take another small example. Say I live next to a fraternity house. Say they are blasting the loudest music possible, on the largest speakers possible, at 2:30 in the morning on a Tuesday night. Say they continue doing this: Tuesday, Wed., Thurs., Fri., for weeks. Can I have my private police force, which isn’t their private police force, come and stop them? Yes? What authority do they have, and to do what, and who gave it to them? And then, if my private police force and I deem it appropriate, can I do the same thing at 6 in the evening on Saturday? If not, why not?

And if I don’t have a private contractor, can I smoke weed on Park Ave. in NYC? How about shooting heroin and marturbating at the same time? No? Whose defense company is going to stop me? On what authority do they get to decide what I can and cannot do to myself in public? What if I’m Jewish, and they decide that I can’t wear a Yamaka in public? What if they then decide that I’ve got to wear some sort of identification to let people know that I’m Jewish?

And how about children? Are they signed up with their parents’ defense companies? What if the parents don’t have any? Imagine the most backwoods Appalachian time-warp hillbilly hopeless trailer home on Earth, tucked in somewhere among the thin bare trees of West Virginia. A father and his daughter live there. Imagine he has no defense contractor, no law. And imagine he rapes his own daughter every single night. Who’s going to stop him? Somebody else’s private police force? Now let’s imagine we’re in Greenwich, CT., and there’s an upstanding conservative family living their happy, healthy life. Say they own guns, and they’ve got kids. Say their neighbors decide that their defense contractor is going to put an end to this, because they don’t like that this nice family has kids and guns in the house at the same time. So they move in and they take the guns and the kids away. Do they have the authority to do this? If the people who put an end to the West Virginia rape had authority, then it seems these Greenwichers must. And what recourse has the conservative family? Must their private defense force go to war with that of their neighbors?

You don’t have to answer these. A hundred more will crop up in their places. My point is that this would not work, and it would very likely lead to the kind of tyranny that anarchists think they’re subjected to now.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:
Now, in a privatized society, the company he chooses to defend him may impose such an astronomical cost on him (after finding him guilty of his crimes)
[/quote]

Wait, Dahmer gets prosecuted by his own defense contractor? I thought it would be that of one of his victims. What if he has none? Is he going to be tried and convicted and imprisoned by somebody else’s?

And why must they first find him guilty? Who says that this must be, and who enforces it? The invisible hand? So if such a company turns corrupt and begins convicting people who are deemed economic competitors of it, without trial, then that’s only going to stop when enough people catch on and take their business elsewhere?

And who settles the trillions of disputes (per minute) that are going to arise between separate people with separate defense contractors?

Let’s take another small example. Say I live next to a fraternity house. Say they are blasting the loudest music possible, on the largest speakers possible, at 2:30 in the morning on a Tuesday night. Say they continue doing this: Tuesday, Wed., Thurs., Fri., for weeks. Can I have my private police force, which isn’t their private police force, come and stop them? Yes? What authority do they have, and to do what, and who gave it to them? And then, if my private police force and I deem it appropriate, can I do the same thing at 6 in the evening on Saturday? If not, why not?

And if I don’t have a private contractor, can I smoke weed on Park Ave. in NYC? How about shooting heroin and marturbating at the same time? No? Whose defense company is going to stop me? On what authority do they get to decide what I can and cannot do to myself in public? What if I’m Jewish, and they decide that I can’t wear a Yamaka in public? What if they then decide that I’ve got to wear some sort of identification to let people know that I’m Jewish?

And how about children? Are they signed up with their parents’ defense companies? What if the parents don’t have any? Imagine the most backwoods Appalachian time-warp hillbilly hopeless trailer home on Earth, tucked in somewhere among the thin bare trees of West Virginia. A father and his daughter live there. Imagine he has no defense contractor, no law. And imagine he rapes his own daughter every single night. Who’s going to stop him? Somebody else’s private police force? Now let’s imagine we’re in Greenwich, CT., and there’s an upstanding conservative family living their happy, healthy life. Say they own guns, and they’ve got kids. Say their neighbors decide that their defense contractor is going to put an end to this, because they don’t like that this nice family has kids and guns in the house at the same time. So they move in and they take the guns and the kids away. Do they have the authority to do this? If the people who put an end to the West Virginia rape had authority, then it seems these Greenwichers must. And what recourse has the conservative family? Must their private defense force go to war with that of their neighbors?

You don’t have to answer these. A hundred more will crop up in their places. My point is that this would not work, and it would very likely lead to the kind of tyranny that anarchists think they’re subjected to now.[/quote]

His company could challenge a ruling by the court company chosen by the victims’ courts if desired.

If you don’t like someone’s music, you could certainly try to file suit against him. The fact that you’re asking your company to deal with noise, however, is probably going to raise your payments from what they would be if you asked the company only to protect your life. Would the extra cost be worth it? Only you could decide.

If you don’t have any hired defense, you can smoke weed on your property. If you’re on somebody else’s property, it’s up to that person. In a privatized society, “public” wouldn’t exist.

Children, in any society parents are allowed to raise children, bring up difficult questions. I guess I would just say that morality can’t be legislated, and although it’s terrible that some children will have no chance in life due to awful family situations, giving a state control will not improve things. Where is hillbilly mom?

How does an all powerful state deal with any of the situations you brought up? What if a Mexican man kills an American in San Diego, then goes back to Mexico? How about the same situation with Tennessee and Virginia in place of the U.S. and Mexico? How is that currently dealt with? Cooperation is always necessary. A privatized society would likely encourage grkeater cooperation due to the costs inflicted on uncooperative groups. If Company A refuses to come to peaceful agreements, its clients will be paying much more than Company B’s clients, right?

Eliminating legalized robbery/taxation would take care of many current “problems”(situations that bother taxpayers who are only trying to use the state to get their money’s worth out of what’s taken from them). Those same people would likely not freely give away their money to combat a neighbor playing his music a notch too loudly.

At worst, a privatized society would have many of the same problems we currently have(Of course, immigration as a problem would disappear). I just prefer freedom.

[quote]NickViar wrote:
In a privatized society, “public” wouldn’t exist.
[/quote]

There are so many problems with what you’ve written. Not being able to stop a parent from violently raping their own children, day and and day out, night after night, despite knowing that it’s happening? This is not freedom. This is laughable tyranny, and anybody who yearns for such an arrangement has already drowned in their own idealism. But I’ll just focus on one small practical concern, related to the quoted portion:

So I’m a billionaire. I buy up every street and every piece of property surrounding your house, so that you live on a small island completely surrounded by a sea of property owned by me. And then I make a “law”–a rule for my property–that says you’re not, under any circumstance, allowed to trespass on my property. Under pain of death. You’ll be shot instantly, the moment you step foot on my land. And then I set up security cameras and snipers and watchtowers, and I wait.

So you stay in your house for the rest of your life?

[quote]NickViar wrote:

If you don’t like someone’s music, you could certainly try to file suit against him. The fact that you’re asking your company to deal with noise, however, is probably going to raise your payments from what they would be if you asked the company only to protect your life. Would the extra cost be worth it? Only you could decide.
[/quote]

I decide it’s worth it. What do I do? My people go in and tell them to shut their music down? Guess what, my people can’t trespass on their property. That’s one of their defense company’s rules. Now what?

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:
In a privatized society, “public” wouldn’t exist.
[/quote]

There are so many problems with what you’ve written. Not being able to stop a parent from violently raping their own children, day and and day out, night after night, despite knowing that it’s happening? This is not freedom. This is laughable tyranny, and anybody who yearns for such an arrangement has already drowned in their own idealism. But I’ll just focus on one small practical concern, related to the quoted portion:

So I’m a billionaire. I buy up every street and every piece of property surrounding your house, so that you live on a small island completely surrounded by a sea of property owned by me. And then I make a “law”–a rule for my property–that says you’re not, under any circumstance, allowed to trespass on my property. Under pain of death. You’ll be shot instantly, the moment you step foot on my land. And then I set up security cameras and snipers and watchtowers, and I wait.

So you stay in your house for the rest of your life?[/quote]

Good point. Let’ s ask Randy Weaver how our government handles a similar situation.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

If you don’t like someone’s music, you could certainly try to file suit against him. The fact that you’re asking your company to deal with noise, however, is probably going to raise your payments from what they would be if you asked the company only to protect your life. Would the extra cost be worth it? Only you could decide.
[/quote]

I decide it’s worth it. What do I do? My people go in and tell them to shut their music down? Guess what, my people can’t trespass on their property. That’s one of their defense company’s rules. Now what?[/quote]

Your company can deal with theirs.

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:
In a privatized society, “public” wouldn’t exist.
[/quote]

There are so many problems with what you’ve written. Not being able to stop a parent from violently raping their own children, day and and day out, night after night, despite knowing that it’s happening? This is not freedom. This is laughable tyranny, and anybody who yearns for such an arrangement has already drowned in their own idealism. But I’ll just focus on one small practical concern, related to the quoted portion:

So I’m a billionaire. I buy up every street and every piece of property surrounding your house, so that you live on a small island completely surrounded by a sea of property owned by me. And then I make a “law”–a rule for my property–that says you’re not, under any circumstance, allowed to trespass on my property. Under pain of death. You’ll be shot instantly, the moment you step foot on my land. And then I set up security cameras and snipers and watchtowers, and I wait.

So you stay in your house for the rest of your life?[/quote]

Good point. Let’ s ask Randy Weaver.
[/quote]

When the going gets tough, the anarchist ducks away.

Seriously, though, are you saying that you simply sit in your house until you die, with utterly no recourse?

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

If you don’t like someone’s music, you could certainly try to file suit against him. The fact that you’re asking your company to deal with noise, however, is probably going to raise your payments from what they would be if you asked the company only to protect your life. Would the extra cost be worth it? Only you could decide.
[/quote]

I decide it’s worth it. What do I do? My people go in and tell them to shut their music down? Guess what, my people can’t trespass on their property. That’s one of their defense company’s rules. Now what?[/quote]

Your company can deal with theirs. [/quote]

How? Neither has authority over the other, and no body has authority over either of them. There are no rules under which arbitration could proceed, and no higher authority to which either is beholden. What do you mean “deal with?” One company says X, the other says not X. What happens?

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

If you don’t like someone’s music, you could certainly try to file suit against him. The fact that you’re asking your company to deal with noise, however, is probably going to raise your payments from what they would be if you asked the company only to protect your life. Would the extra cost be worth it? Only you could decide.
[/quote]

I decide it’s worth it. What do I do? My people go in and tell them to shut their music down? Guess what, my people can’t trespass on their property. That’s one of their defense company’s rules. Now what?[/quote]

Your company can deal with theirs. [/quote]

How? Neither has authority over the other, and no body has authority over either of them. There are no rules under which arbitration could proceed, and no higher authority to which either is beholden. What do you mean “deal with?” One company says X, the other says not X. What happens?[/quote]

The cost to each company of going to war over loud music is likely all the rule needed. To save them further expense, perhaps they could use the services of an arbitrator to help them arrive at a mutually agreeable decision.

[quote]NickViar wrote:

Another question: Why does this billionaire do this? What’s the point? Why not sell him your property and move somewhere nicer? Relieving him of the cost of constantly keeping you home should buy you a nice place.
[/quote]

Who cares why? He just doesn’t like you. He gets to do whatever the fuck he wants, because that’s the world now. And he just wants to do this. Maybe the billionaire is me, and I’m doing it to prove to you that the world you so adamantly desire is ridiculous and stupid to the point of actual evil.

[I should note here that I would never do such a thing to you, and I value the debate that you and I have.]

But yeah, it really doesn’t matter why. People do crazy shit every few attoseconds here on this planet. So this guy does this. You sit there and die, right?

[quote]NickViar wrote:

The cost to each company of going to war over loud music is likely all the rule needed. To save them further expense, perhaps they could use the services of an arbitrator to help them arrive at a mutually agreeable decision.
[/quote]

The arbitrator rules in one’s favor, the other decides they don’t like it and so they simply ignore it. Now what?

Edit: Or, better yet, one of them doesn’t agree to go to arbitration. So?

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:
In a privatized society, “public” wouldn’t exist.
[/quote]

There are so many problems with what you’ve written. Not being able to stop a parent from violently raping their own children, day and and day out, night after night, despite knowing that it’s happening? This is not freedom. This is laughable tyranny, and anybody who yearns for such an arrangement has already drowned in their own idealism. But I’ll just focus on one small practical concern, related to the quoted portion:

So I’m a billionaire. I buy up every street and every piece of property surrounding your house, so that you live on a small island completely surrounded by a sea of property owned by me. And then I make a “law”–a rule for my property–that says you’re not, under any circumstance, allowed to trespass on my property. Under pain of death. You’ll be shot instantly, the moment you step foot on my land. And then I set up security cameras and snipers and watchtowers, and I wait.

So you stay in your house for the rest of your life?[/quote]

Good point. Let’ s ask Randy Weaver.
[/quote]

When the going gets tough, the anarchist ducks away.

Seriously, though, are you saying that you simply sit in your house until you die, with utterly no recourse?[/quote]

Why did the billionaire do this? Would he purchase your property, too? What if Bill Gates buys the city in which you live, posts “No Trespassing” signs everywhere, then pays off both the state and federal government to keep you at home? Are you stuck?

We can come up with a nearly infinite number of new and exciting situations in which anarchy would have problems, but a state has the same problems. However, we can come up with plenty of situations in which a privatized society is BETTER than the state(May Person A smoke marijuana on his property? ETC.).

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

The cost to each company of going to war over loud music is likely all the rule needed. To save them further expense, perhaps they could use the services of an arbitrator to help them arrive at a mutually agreeable decision.
[/quote]

The arbitrator rules in one’s favor, the other decides they don’t like it and so they simply ignore it. Now what?

Edit: Or, better yet, one of them doesn’t agree to go to arbitration. So?[/quote]

Like I said, the companies could go to war if they deem it worth the cost. I tend to doubt that you, the fraternity, and your respective agencies would let it go that point.

[quote]NickViar wrote:

Why did the billionaire do this? Would he purchase your property, too? What if Bill Gates buys the city in which you live, posts “No Trespassing” signs everywhere, then pays off both the state and federal government to keep you at home? Are you stuck?
[/quote]

This is a violation of the rules of our little game here. We’re talking about what our systems allow. Yours allows the billionaire to do what he did, and it offers no recourse to you. You must sit in your home and die.

My system does not allow this to happen. If it does (happen), in the context of my system–which, by the way, has safeguards built in to prevent this kind of thing from happening–then it is no longer my system, but another. And it’s not another that we’re discussing, but mine.

This is the difference between calling American football a violent sport because within the context of its rules it allows for enough physical trauma to result in brain damage and death, and calling ping pong a violent sport because your neighbors were playing one day and one of them became so frustrated that he broke his paddle in half and stabbed the other to death with the jagged end. The latter does not make ping pong a violent sport because the hypothetical event in question is born not of its nature but as a violation of its nature.