The Philosophy of Liberty

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

No, I was not being sarcastic. “Liberal” is a common misnomer for the democratic party,[/quote]

I would agree .

I hope you agree also that it is a common misnomer that the Republican party is “Conservative”
[/quote]

No, I would say that label fits. However, I may classify the Democrats as “ultra-conservative.” Republicans tend to want to roll things back maybe 120 years(just a number), whereas democrats seem to want things rolled back to the times in which defeated peoples became a nation’s slaves and the nation’s own people didn’t live much better. I think the Republicans are a kinder master, but make no mistake, they do not wish to free us.

22

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Outstanding. Encapsulates my philosophy precisely.

Congratulations, D. You are a libertarian. [/quote]

I think you will find that the majority of the conservatives on this board would be considered Libertarian[/quote]

I think you will find that the majority of the conservatives on this board have no problem whatsoever with others initiating force on their behalf. [/quote]

When the hypothetical Commies/Chinese/zombies/Mexican drug lords/Canadians are coming for you one day, Varq my man, you will have no problem whatsoever with others initiating force on your behalf. That Scout of yours, as fine a weapon as it is, has it’s limitations.
[/quote]

'You have the right to protect your own Life, Liberty, and Justly acquired property from the forceful aggression of others.

And you have the right to ask others to defend you’

23

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Outstanding. Encapsulates my philosophy precisely.

Congratulations, D. You are a libertarian. [/quote]

I think you will find that the majority of the conservatives on this board would be considered Libertarian[/quote]

I think you will find that the majority of the conservatives on this board have no problem whatsoever with others initiating force on their behalf. [/quote]

When the hypothetical Commies/Chinese/zombies/Mexican drug lords/Canadians are coming for you one day, Varq my man, you will have no problem whatsoever with others initiating force on your behalf. That Scout of yours, as fine a weapon as it is, has it’s limitations.
[/quote]

Is the difference between defense and aggression hard for you to understand?

26

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Outstanding. Encapsulates my philosophy precisely.

Congratulations, D. You are a libertarian. [/quote]

I think you will find that the majority of the conservatives on this board would be considered Libertarian[/quote]

This is incredibly unlikely with the many threads that want to legislate some sort of morals ala drug use or gay marriage and so on.

27

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Outstanding. Encapsulates my philosophy precisely.

Congratulations, D. You are a libertarian. [/quote]

I think you will find that the majority of the conservatives on this board would be considered Libertarian[/quote]

I think you will find that the majority of the conservatives on this board have no problem whatsoever with others initiating force on their behalf. [/quote]

When the hypothetical Commies/Chinese/zombies/Mexican drug lords/Canadians are coming for you one day, Varq my man, you will have no problem whatsoever with others initiating force on your behalf. That Scout of yours, as fine a weapon as it is, has it’s limitations.
[/quote]

Is the difference between defense and aggression hard for you to understand?[/quote]

“Defense” can be a relative term.

[/quote]

If they invade me, what I do is defense. What they do is aggression.

If I invade them, what I do is aggression. What they do is defense.

Seems pretty simple.

31

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Outstanding. Encapsulates my philosophy precisely.

Congratulations, D. You are a libertarian. [/quote]

I think you will find that the majority of the conservatives on this board would be considered Libertarian[/quote]

I think you will find that the majority of the conservatives on this board have no problem whatsoever with others initiating force on their behalf. [/quote]

When the hypothetical Commies/Chinese/zombies/Mexican drug lords/Canadians are coming for you one day, Varq my man, you will have no problem whatsoever with others initiating force on your behalf. That Scout of yours, as fine a weapon as it is, has it’s limitations.
[/quote]

Is the difference between defense and aggression hard for you to understand?[/quote]

“Defense” can be a relative term.

[/quote]

If they invade me, what I do is defense. What they do is aggression.

If I invade them, what I do is aggression. What they do is defense.

Seems pretty simple.
[/quote]

What would you call it if a Country had people living without Liberty and a country that had the means went in and defeated the Government that was holding those people down?

33

[quote]mbdix wrote:

What would you call it if a Country had people living without Liberty and a country that had the means went in and defeated the Government that was holding those people down?

[/quote]

Why did it do that? Did the people “living without liberty” pay, or even ask it to intervene on their behalf? How was it determined that the people wanted a change? Once “freed” will the country be left alone, or will its “liberator” rule it-perhaps in a more lenient manner than its original ruler?

34

[quote]mbdix wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Outstanding. Encapsulates my philosophy precisely.

Congratulations, D. You are a libertarian. [/quote]

I think you will find that the majority of the conservatives on this board would be considered Libertarian[/quote]

I think you will find that the majority of the conservatives on this board have no problem whatsoever with others initiating force on their behalf. [/quote]

When the hypothetical Commies/Chinese/zombies/Mexican drug lords/Canadians are coming for you one day, Varq my man, you will have no problem whatsoever with others initiating force on your behalf. That Scout of yours, as fine a weapon as it is, has it’s limitations.
[/quote]

Is the difference between defense and aggression hard for you to understand?[/quote]

“Defense” can be a relative term.

[/quote]

If they invade me, what I do is defense. What they do is aggression.

If I invade them, what I do is aggression. What they do is defense.

Seems pretty simple.
[/quote]

What would you call it if a Country had people living without Liberty and a country that had the means went in and defeated the Government that was holding those people down?

[/quote]

I would call it unlikely.

35

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Outstanding. Encapsulates my philosophy precisely.

Congratulations, D. You are a libertarian. [/quote]

I think you will find that the majority of the conservatives on this board would be considered Libertarian[/quote]

I think you will find that the majority of the conservatives on this board have no problem whatsoever with others initiating force on their behalf. [/quote]

When the hypothetical Commies/Chinese/zombies/Mexican drug lords/Canadians are coming for you one day, Varq my man, you will have no problem whatsoever with others initiating force on your behalf. That Scout of yours, as fine a weapon as it is, has it’s limitations.
[/quote]

Is the difference between defense and aggression hard for you to understand?[/quote]

“Defense” can be a relative term.

[/quote]

If they invade me, what I do is defense. What they do is aggression.

If I invade them, what I do is aggression. What they do is defense.

Seems pretty simple.
[/quote]

Seems pretty simple until one gets in the thick of things.

This is a subject where more than just cursory platitudes are necessary.[/quote]

Sure, but it all boils down to “who started it?”

If you and I are sitting in the bar in Whitefish one evening and I decide to punch you in the nose, I am the initiator of force. Everything that happened beforehand (our furious argument about Elisha and the she-bears, your calling me an effete intellectual, me calling you a provincial philistine, you saying “yo momma!”) and everything happening afterward (you throwing me across the bar, me smashing a chair over your head, and the bartender firing a round of birdshot into the floor to quiet things down) are incidental to the fact that I started the fight. I threw the first punch. I was the aggressor.

Simple.

Utah said that most conservatives on this board would be considered libertarians. In that a true libertarian would not cheer on the state as it initiated force on his assumed behalf, I disputed that statement. I assumed, in fact, that most conservatives would probably have an opinion not unlike yours about the matter.

36

Hogwash.

You don’t own your life. Dumb nature certainly doesn’t it will it to be so. Since it doesn’t will anything. You might be permitted to use it due to the inaction of others, but you don’t own it. Men can be procured and traded like any resource. Everything else falls apart after that.

37

I like not having “free-men” decide they can hunt this or that native Florida species until extinction. Or run their boats wide-open in manatee zones.

I like roads.

I like courts.

All supplied through force.

39

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]mbdix wrote:

What would you call it if a Country had people living without Liberty and a country that had the means went in and defeated the Government that was holding those people down?

[/quote]

Why did it do that? Did the people “living without liberty” pay, or even ask it to intervene on their behalf? How was it determined that the people wanted a change? Once “freed” will the country be left alone, or will its “liberator” rule it-perhaps in a more lenient manner than its original ruler?[/quote]

The way I feel about it is, I think it’s everyone’s born right to Liberty. There could be many factors of why people might not be able to ask for help in this scenario. The “Liberator” comes in takes out the ruler that has oppressed the people, provides security for a while to make sure that the people have a chance to vote and establish a Government to their wishes and then leaves. If that country votes to go back to an oppressive government, then so be it. But, the “Liberator” gives the people a chance to have Liberty.

As I have just wrote that I do see the flaws in it. I do see how being the shot callers of a powerful nation of ‘free’ citizens would be a massively difficult job.

I can say that as much as don’t like how my Government does some things, I am happy and thankful to be born in America. And proud to be American