The Philosophy of Liberty

[quote]florelius wrote:
but rather it is a system wich developed in an organic way in the last millenia IMO.[/quote]

That is really how I see it. We (people throughout history) just did stuff, and the observation of those interactions is the basis of economics. It isn’t like a group of people got together and said “hey lets all do it this way” (at least as far as voluntary exchange is concerned). No people did what was best for them, and the ripples, so on and so forth, framed the picture that is an economic model.

I was under the impression you speak a couple languages, so no worries on my part, lol. You’re doing fine.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Now we’re getting somewhere.

Before I’d even say that my idea of a good mix is more market friendly, I would ask you:

How would you counterbalance the ills of powerful government which historically is known to be a problem with government?
[/quote]

Well my take on that is plentyfull.

First we need to set it up in such away that it is difficult for a small group of people to
controll it. My suggestion is not original, but it is parlamentarianism. I understand that its always a risk that a coup by powerhungry authoritarians can happen, trough violence or corruption. But it is in my opinion the best solution.

Secondly its area of control should not be to big, USSR or USA for that matter is an example of how that make things difficult. So small government in the sense of its geographical reach.

Thirdly the government must be limited in the sense that it is some things it cannot do against any person. Like execute people, torturing people, jailing people for saying or writing something, denie people to form churces, labour unions, political partys etc, send people to death camps, force them to fight wars( as in drafts ) etc. In essence a liberal constitutional state. Stalins Russia did not suck because of public programs, but because the state and its ideology didnt see basic human rights as important and acted accordingly.

4th by being constituted as an entity for the general welfare of the populace. This means that the state is not understood as the private property of a king, or that it exist to serve a allknowing party or a priestclass, but that it in its core is a collectivist tool to solve and do things that can only be done collectively and with the aim of bettering the life of every individual that constitutes the collective.

5th. Here is where the market or the “private property” comes in. Its important as an counterbalance to the government that it exist private entities outside of government. Offcourse I prefer this too be non-profit organizations or for-profit cooperatives or small companys( as in actually small, like a small restuarant ). Ergo there must be laws that make private enterprises possible, but offcourse I am okay with a restriction on how much a person can own and that government should give incentives for people to rather start a cooperative, rather than a company with a authoritarian structure( both in decision power over said company and share of the profits ). This will also make it harder for a psuedo-aristocacry to form, wich if existing could gain control over the government by using their money-power to influence the government and put democary in danger.

6th. A proper universal educational system. A premiss for a living and healthy democracy that actually is democratic on more than paper, is a educated populace. That means that the collective trough taxation should make shure everyone have acces to all levels of education from kinder garden to the university and that it is a high priority to have a quality educational system that for one give people the proper tools for critical thinking.
( This doesnt mean that I think everyone should get a Phd, but I think it should be purely tax financed. Also it does not mean I want to ban private schools )

7th. A welfare system( pensions, universal healthcare, unemployment, sick pay etc ). I know this sounds like the opposit of a argument for where the government should be limited, but it is easier to supress and oppress a starving and desperate populace. Here strict laws for workers protection also comes in.

hm that did become a bit long.

[quote]
I’m not anti-welfare to the point were I’m ripping off the safety net. (I would assume my idea of a safety net is much more narrow than yours though.) I’m also not anti-regulation. Some regulations are good. Regulation is just law that dictates behavior. The law that dictates no one is allowed to enter my home and take my things, is a good regulation. [/quote]

I understand that you are not anti-welfare, you said balance after all. By more market-friendly I only ment that you want less regulations on business than me, but even a american left-liberal want that compared to me :wink:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
but rather it is a system wich developed in an organic way in the last millenia IMO.[/quote]

That is really how I see it. We (people throughout history) just did stuff, and the observation of those interactions is the basis of economics. It isn’t like a group of people got together and said “hey lets all do it this way” (at least as far as voluntary exchange is concerned). No people did what was best for them, and the ripples, so on and so forth, framed the picture that is an economic model.

I was under the impression you speak a couple languages, so no worries on my part, lol. You’re doing fine. [/quote]

Thank you.

[quote]Kareem Said wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Kareem Said wrote:
However, your reply just highlighted the problem with the way you are looking at things. [/quote]

Oh? And what problem is that?

[quote]Also both capitalism and government were not with us from the dawn of time, both are very recent states of societal evolution.

[/quote]

Please name one society in recorded human history that didn’t have some sort of governmental structure.

And the first coupling of humans where one partner hunted, and the other cooked it and made cloths out of the skin is essentially capitalism. [/quote]

This is getting stupid.

Every single society before the birth of feudalism had no structured governing force. That is not a disputed thing. That is basic history. [/quote]

This is unequivocally false. That’s so false it proclaims a level of ignorance of history I don’t even have words for. Governing forces for, oh say a couple THOUSAND years before feudalism: God-King Despotism, Monarchy, Republic, Imperial Despotism. God-king despotism: Egypt (2000 BC and before). Monarchic rule: Israel/Hittites/Babylonian/Chinese (Various Mid Eastern and Asiatic kingdoms 1500+BC-present day). Republic–Greece (You may have heard of this one, 300+ BC-rise of Rome), Imperial Despotism/Republic/God-King–Rome at various points in its history.

Rome and Greece both ran recognizably capitalist forms of economy, albeit within a mode of economic thought that was very ancient. The fact that “corporations” did not exist is not to say capitalism was not being utilized.

[quote]florelius wrote:
My understanding of feudalism is that it developed at the end of the first millenia a.d.
[/quote]

This is precisely what happened. There may have been isolated tribes that used a pseudo-feudal economic tribal scheme, but feudalism as both government structure and economic model is precisely where you place it.

Also great set of posts in this thread from you. Spot on in terms. Of course I side more with beans than you in terms of market-friendly vs. collective, as I am sure you have known for some time, but the understanding of a need to have common definition of terms is rather central.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
My understanding of feudalism is that it developed at the end of the first millenia a.d.
[/quote]

This is precisely what happened. There may have been isolated tribes that used a pseudo-feudal economic tribal scheme, but feudalism as both government structure and economic model is precisely where you place it.

Also great set of posts in this thread from you. Spot on in terms. Of course I side more with beans than you in terms of market-friendly vs. collective, as I am sure you have known for some time, but the understanding of a need to have common definition of terms is rather central.[/quote]

Thank you Elessar :slight_smile:

Yhea I am not surprised with you siding with Beans, but thats cool and I dont expect many to agree with me her at PWI, if any. Besides I postulate my opinions and wiews on here not to get people to agree with me( even though its nice if some do ), but to discuss and a discussion is always best if the participants dont see eye to eye on a issue. Also it also helps if they comply in establishing shared definitions to enable a fruitfull discussion.

Neither of those examples were capitalism. They were varying trade systems that lacked the nesscesary features to be classed as capitalism by and historian worth his salt.

Generally, a society is capitalist if:
1.) The means of production are privately owned and operated for profit.
2.) Money is used instead of barter
3.) There is a free labor market.
4.) Decisions regarding investment are made privately
5.) Production and distribution is primarily controlled by companies each acting in its own interest.

The Roman Empire would have met 1, 2 (mostly), 4 (usually), and 5 (although 5 generally would be individuals instead of companies).

3 would be iffy, since slavery existed, and a lack of mobility prevented a truly free labor market outside of the largest cities.

Again something can have most of the characteristics of something and not be it.

Just because those regimes employed a similar economic system relative to say standard feudalism or nomadism, but they still were not capitalist in any real scientific analysis of their economies.

Hell, you could say fascism is capitalism if you use such a flimsy and unscientific analysis. Where as most economists refer to it as capitalism in crisis, which cuts competition, holds central power and chooses market winners. it is rather centralised monopoly corporatism. Just as the USSR’s distinct economic system was state capitalism with central planning.

Neither of them are capitalist they are deviations of it, just like The examples you listed are not capitalism but are rather sharing a lot of its features.

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
My understanding of feudalism is that it developed at the end of the first millenia a.d.
[/quote]

This is precisely what happened. There may have been isolated tribes that used a pseudo-feudal economic tribal scheme, but feudalism as both government structure and economic model is precisely where you place it.

Also great set of posts in this thread from you. Spot on in terms. Of course I side more with beans than you in terms of market-friendly vs. collective, as I am sure you have known for some time, but the understanding of a need to have common definition of terms is rather central.[/quote]

Thank you Elessar :slight_smile:

Yhea I am not surprised with you siding with Beans, but thats cool and I dont expect many to agree with me her at PWI, if any. Besides I postulate my opinions and wiews on here not to get people to agree with me( even though its nice if some do ), but to discuss and a discussion is always best if the participants dont see eye to eye on a issue. Also it also helps if they comply in establishing shared definitions to enable a fruitfull discussion.

[/quote]
Quite welcome sir!

Totally agree. I sort of postulate my views the same way, although I seem to be in a slightly more popular group of opinions here state-side. But much appreciated the way you frame your questions and I always like discussing with you or reading your posts for the reasons above.

[quote]Kareem Said wrote:
Neither of those examples were capitalism. They were varying trade systems that lacked the nesscesary features to be classed as capitalism by and historian worth his salt.

Generally, a society is capitalist if:
1.) The means of production are privately owned and operated for profit.
2.) Money is used instead of barter
3.) There is a free labor market.
4.) Decisions regarding investment are made privately
5.) Production and distribution is primarily controlled by companies each acting in its own interest.

The Roman Empire would have met 1, 2 (mostly), 4 (usually), and 5 (although 5 generally would be individuals instead of companies).

3 would be iffy, since slavery existed, and a lack of mobility prevented a truly free labor market outside of the largest cities.

Again something can have most of the characteristics of something and not be it.

Just because those regimes employed a similar economic system relative to say standard feudalism or nomadism, but they still were not capitalist in any real scientific analysis of their economies.

Hell, you could say fascism is capitalism if you use such a flimsy and unscientific analysis. Where as most economists refer to it as capitalism in crisis, which cuts competition, holds central power and chooses market winners. it is rather centralised monopoly corporatism. Just as the USSR’s distinct economic system was state capitalism with central planning.

Neither of them are capitalist they are deviations of it, just like The examples you listed are not capitalism but are rather sharing a lot of its features.

[/quote]

So let me get this straight: you said the Roman Empire met 4/5 and in many places could have met 5/5 or 100% of the criteria but was still not capitalism.

What the hell? No.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Kareem Said wrote:
Neither of those examples were capitalism. They were varying trade systems that lacked the nesscesary features to be classed as capitalism by and historian worth his salt.

Generally, a society is capitalist if:
1.) The means of production are privately owned and operated for profit.
2.) Money is used instead of barter
3.) There is a free labor market.
4.) Decisions regarding investment are made privately
5.) Production and distribution is primarily controlled by companies each acting in its own interest.

The Roman Empire would have met 1, 2 (mostly), 4 (usually), and 5 (although 5 generally would be individuals instead of companies).

3 would be iffy, since slavery existed, and a lack of mobility prevented a truly free labor market outside of the largest cities.

Again something can have most of the characteristics of something and not be it.

Just because those regimes employed a similar economic system relative to say standard feudalism or nomadism, but they still were not capitalist in any real scientific analysis of their economies.

Hell, you could say fascism is capitalism if you use such a flimsy and unscientific analysis. Where as most economists refer to it as capitalism in crisis, which cuts competition, holds central power and chooses market winners. it is rather centralised monopoly corporatism. Just as the USSR’s distinct economic system was state capitalism with central planning.

Neither of them are capitalist they are deviations of it, just like The examples you listed are not capitalism but are rather sharing a lot of its features.

[/quote]

So let me get this straight: you said the Roman Empire met 4/5 and in many places could have met 5/5 or 100% of the criteria but was still not capitalism.

What the hell? No.
[/quote]

Yes, like semi feudal states may resemble most parts of capitalism, but if they are comprador or semi feudal versions then no they lack the requirements to be capitalist and fall short of the needed specifics to be counted as capitalist.

Having completely unfree labour markets can not be capitalism, that is impossible.

[quote]Kareem Said wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Kareem Said wrote:
Hunter gatherer society had no real mode of production as it was so low level it does not really have its own mode.
[/quote]

What? technological advancement does not an “economic system” define.

Person goes out kills 2 deer. Eats one, and trades the second to another person for 3 clay pots and a spear. Capitalism.

Mode of production: a) hunting deer b) making pots and spears
Owners: Producers
Profit: a) new spear to hunt and pots to cook game in b) full belly without having to hunt
reinvestment: a) more deer means more posts and more spears b) better spears and pots mean more full bellies.

Since the dawn of civilization this has been going on, irrelevant of government control. Black markets, barter exchange…

[/quote]

Bartering food is not capitalism. Jesus this is so stupid.

Capitalism is based on the worker producing commodities for a wage, the capitalist tries to extract the most money out of the worker to render the most surplus value or as it is profit.

That is not trading hunted meat and gathering bloody nuts.

It amazes me how so many people have no clue about something so incredibly basic and still try and act like they at all understand economics.

Really depressing.
[/quote]

Welcome to T Nation PWI where it is not about debate . They will never even concede the fact that what they claimn to be fact is debated by All economists . They also are never wrong , Beans especially :slight_smile:

That it lasted 11 pages, talking about a philosophy built on a broken precedent since it doesn’t follow the state of nature. Obviously nobody even Wiki’d the word liberty less study any advanced concepts of it.

Then, people arguing the semantics of capitalism, as if unabashed capitalism were somehow attached to liberty.

Hows democracy and capitalism working for say Thailand? Once money becomes the top priority and money is for the most part controlled by government, isn’t it a given that corruption follows? Isn’t Thailand the best example?

Beans, Capitalism REQUIRES private owners…

[quote]Severiano wrote:
That it lasted 11 pages, talking about a philosophy built on a broken precedent.

Then, people arguing the semantics of capitalism, as if unabashed capitalism were somehow attached to liberty.

Hows democracy and capitalism working for say Thailand? Once money becomes the top priority and money is for the most part controlled by government, isn’t it a given that corruption follows? Isn’t Thailand the best example?

Beans, Capitalism REQUIRES private owners… [/quote]

Capitalism is the only economic system possible in a free society.

A state would not control money in a free society.

Capitalism certainly does require private owners.

I believe capitalism is a term actually coined by Marx

The concepts that free market or “capitalism” espouse are timeless and apply to hunger gatherer societies. Why do the men do the hunting and the women do other stuff? That’s so easy you don’t really need this link to figure it out, but it could help with understanding beans’ perspective

[quote]squating_bear wrote:

I believe capitalism is a term actually coined by Marx

The concepts that free market or “capitalism” espouse are timeless and apply to hunger gatherer societies. Why do the men do the hunting and the women do other stuff? That’s so easy you don’t really need this link to figure it out, but it could help with understanding beans’ perspective

[/quote]

Thank you.

[quote]Severiano wrote:

Beans, Capitalism REQUIRES private owners… [/quote]

And? Every example I gave had private owners…

Or are you back to make up things that didn’t happen in threads again?

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
blablabla
[/quote]
Hey Aragorn, stop philosophizing and go fill out your “How do you train” thread in BSL!

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
They also are never wrong , Beans especially :slight_smile:
[/quote]

How do my nuts taste?

You sure seem to like them in your mouth a lot these days…

[quote]squating_bear wrote:

I believe capitalism is a term actually coined by Marx

The concepts that free market or “capitalism” espouse are timeless and apply to hunger gatherer societies. Why do the men do the hunting and the women do other stuff? That’s so easy you don’t really need this link to figure it out, but it could help with understanding beans’ perspective

[/quote]

Actually Karl Marx said exactly what I said.
Karl marx only uses capitalism to refer to post feudal societies and he certainly did not call any older societies capitalist as they were not by any scientific analysis.

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
blablabla
[/quote]
Hey Aragorn, stop philosophizing and go fill out your “How do you train” thread in BSL![/quote]

Wait–what??

I didn’t know I had one!

On my way.