Union members and officials are no more corrupt in general than any other group.
So again, without trying to be jerk, what are you suggesting here? If I agree that everybody’s corrupt, then where do we go? Is nothing worth doing anymore, since it will inevitably be corrupted anyway? If so, why would you bother advocating the election of conservative politicians? Should we totally give up on society and go live in Somalia or something? At the other end, again accepting your thesis, that still gives one no reason to come down on either side. My point is, you can’t do anything with the argument you’re making. What’s your point?
That’s what they called their fascism, yes.
Stalin was whatever was convenient at the moment, although I think we can, for most purposes, safely put him safely in the “statist” category (even though his true goal was abolition of the state and the achievement of communism).
Well, yeah. We do it here, too, we just don’t use the word “socialism,” because it’s become so tainted. But when the people have to elect you, you couch your platform in popular, democratic terms. In countries past, it’s been “socialism” (in the past, socialism had very moral connotations, which is one reason it used to be so popular) In this country, it’s “accountability,” “transparency,” etc. It boils down to the same thing: “I’m going to make your life better.” Is it really surprising that this is consistently the message?
My thought on why socialism has become so tainted here in the U.S., is because the thought of the American Dream. Work hard and you will be rewarded with riches. Socialism IMO allows people to become lazy, because all people are equal whether or not they work hard. This is my issue with Unions. The longer you are in a union the more senior you become the more likely you are to keep your job whether or not a young person can do your job 3 fold better.
However, I have to disagree with you. I don’t think the idea of the American Dream could have been responsible for the “fall” of socialism. In fact, there was a very active socialist movement in the United States for a while right alongside the concept of the American Dream. The feeling was that the capitalist system made the Dream just that, a dream, i.e., it did NOT reward one for hard work, and so the socialist movement was born as a way to make reward commensurate to one’s work. On the contrary, socialism does NOT allow one to be lazy, because it would abolish all sources of income other than work. Early American socialists did not campaign for welfare (with the exception of pensions, disability pay, and so forth). In fact, they wanted the opposite–employment, something many could not obtain under capitalism.
Socialism became unpopular after the Red Scare of the 50s and 60s. The problem was pure propaganda. Even now, several “socialist” ideas are popular, as long as you don’t tell people that’s what they are.
its still not socialisme. keynes was not against private ownership of the means of production. its perhaps not live up to your picture of an ideal form of capitalisme, but it is still a form of capitalisme.
[quote]florelius wrote:
its still not socialisme. keynes was not against private ownership of the means of production. its perhaps not live up to your picture of an ideal form of capitalisme, but it is still a form of capitalisme.
[/quote]
It is Fascism. Capitalism can only exist without government interference. The second government steps in it become Fascism. This is a very simple concept.
Socialism like Fascism is destined to fail, the only problem is Socialism collapses a lot faster.
[quote]John S. wrote:It is Fascism. Capitalism can only exist without government interference. The second government steps in it become Fascism. This is a very simple concept.
Socialism like Fascism is destined to fail, the only problem is Socialism collapses a lot faster.[/quote]
It is not even close to fascism. Look at a dictionary.
Capitalism cannot exist without government interference, you have it exactly backwards.
Socialism is not destined to fail. Fascism is not destined to fail. In fact, out of the three, capitalism (at least in its “pure” form) is the only one that is actually destined to fail.
[quote]John S. wrote:It is Fascism. Capitalism can only exist without government interference. The second government steps in it become Fascism. This is a very simple concept.
Socialism like Fascism is destined to fail, the only problem is Socialism collapses a lot faster.[/quote]
It is not even close to fascism. Look at a dictionary.
Capitalism cannot exist without government interference, you have it exactly backwards.
Socialism is not destined to fail. Fascism is not destined to fail. In fact, out of the three, capitalism (at least in its “pure” form) is the only one that is actually destined to fail.
[/quote]
Fascism is the merger of cooperate and state, Socialism is the government having complete control over. Both end the same way, a complete economic collapse.
Socialism always devolved into communism. The Soviet Socialist Republic went Communism because they at least understood why socialism will always fail, Socialism ignores motivation.
Capitalism is the only one that can function outside of government. The markets decide what happens. The markets where washing all the too big to fails out of the market and the Government came in and put them back in. How anyone can think government is the solution is insane.
You do not understand capitalism, and I doubt you know anything about economics, which is why you refused to answer my question in the other thread. You get bitch slapped all around the internet and have once again gotten bitch slapped here.
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Not necessarily. You can get the money out in the form of aid to states, extra unemployment benefits, etc.[/quote]
That money has to come from somewhere, The government has to take that money out of the private sector to do that. And as what has been proven time and time again the private sector is better at creating things then the great destroyer of wealth ever will be.
When the government starts taking and merging with the private sector Fascism is what is created.
So fascism and socialism mean the same thing? Look, if you are going to go such great lengths to split hairs over the definition of capitalism, you can’t paint with such a broad brush when it comes to other definition.
And I wouldn’t criticize other systems for “complete economic collapse.” Look around you. That’s capitalism, baby, which would have been much much worse if not for aggressive fiscal and monetary policy.
Besides, why do you think we have all these government agencies? Your ideas failed last century.
You mean Communism, the highest stage of civilization, which evolves from socialism?
Well, I’m sure any party member would be surprised to learn that they achieved Communism. And by “ignoring motivation,” are you referring to the system of higher pay for skilled work that was in effect there?
0 for 3 (or is that 4 now?). For capitalism, you need laws, you need courts, you need a police force, and yes, you need some regulation.
You mean aside from the fact that Keynesian stimulus has been successfuly used multiple times throughout history to end a recession? You mean aside from the fact that China, with at least partial government control in nearly every facet of the economy, is kicking the free-marketers’ collective asses? Aside from the fact that government planned or guided economies have put free market economies to shame in terms of growth rates and stability?
Aside from that, I don’t have any idea.
I understand it much better than you. And what question did I refuse to answer (by the way, pot, kettle)? I must not have seen it. I’ll gladly answer it here if you’ll reprint it.
And the thought of you “bitch slapping” me in an argument when you can’t even get definitions right almost has me rolling around in the floor.
You don’t know economics. You don’t know history. You don’t even know definitions. Look, it’s becoming painfully clear that you really don’t know much of anything (a Ron Paul supporter doesn’t know economics–big surprise there). I’d love to have a discussion with you, but you need to calm down, take a couple of days, read a little bit, and come back. Things will go much better that way.
[quote]John S. wrote:It is Fascism. Capitalism can only exist without government interference. The second government steps in it become Fascism. This is a very simple concept.
Socialism like Fascism is destined to fail, the only problem is Socialism collapses a lot faster.[/quote]
It is not even close to fascism. Look at a dictionary.
Capitalism cannot exist without government interference, you have it exactly backwards.
Socialism is not destined to fail. Fascism is not destined to fail. In fact, out of the three, capitalism (at least in its “pure” form) is the only one that is actually destined to fail.
[/quote]
Fascism is the merger of cooperate and state, Socialism is the government having complete control over. Both end the same way, a complete economic collapse.
Socialism always devolved into communism. The Soviet Socialist Republic went Communism because they at least understood why socialism will always fail, Socialism ignores motivation.
Capitalism is the only one that can function outside of government. The markets decide what happens. The markets where washing all the too big to fails out of the market and the Government came in and put them back in. How anyone can think government is the solution is insane.
You do not understand capitalism, and I doubt you know anything about economics, which is why you refused to answer my question in the other thread. You get bitch slapped all around the internet and have once again gotten bitch slapped here. [/quote]
you just proved you dont know shit about socialisme and communisme. the sovjet never reached the communist phase because they where a statist society and communisme has no state.
the sovjetunion was the country in the history of man who went from a agrarculture to a industry based economy in the shortest amount of time. The problem with the ussr was its lack of democracy and civil rights.
Fascisme is a form of capitalisme, its still privat ownership of the means of production. A better word for fascisme is totalitarian capitalisme. its a reason the left was most antifascist in the 1930`s before nazi-germany went to war. the fascistmovement was a reaction to a stronger labor movement in the western world.
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Not necessarily. You can get the money out in the form of aid to states, extra unemployment benefits, etc.[/quote]
That money has to come from somewhere, The government has to take that money out of the private sector to do that. And as what has been proven time and time again the private sector is better at creating things then the great destroyer of wealth ever will be.
When the government starts taking and merging with the private sector Fascism is what is created.[/quote]
Exactly. The government cannot give to anyone, what is has not first taken from someone else.
And I wouldn’t criticize other systems for “complete economic collapse.” Look around you. That’s capitalism, baby, which would have been much much worse if not for aggressive fiscal and monetary policy.
Besides, why do you think we have all these government agencies? Your ideas failed last century.[/quote]
Ryan, the more government has become involved, the more problems we as a nation have faced (including the great depression). Right now, government is only fixing the problems it’s created. Now, I’m not saying that capitalism is perfect, but no economic system is. It’s just that capitalism is much, much better.