I found it more than a bit ironic that, President Obama suggested people vote for Hillary because she is more qualified, yet in 2008 and 2012 he suggested that people vote for the lesser qualified candidate (himself).
I also find it hard to understand how Hillary will bring about change, when she has been involved in politics for a quarter century at least.
He’s barely ahead in FL right now, after the convention bounce. Once she gets her’s and starts her targeted ad run that depicts him has a latino hating devil in the flesh, he is done.
Unless FL is solid ass red at the end of September in every poll on Earth, which won’t happen, Trump has zero shot, zero.
[quote=“countingbeans, post:741, topic:218984, full:true”]
This is cute and all, but I think it’s hilarious you think this is the first time some foreign country was involved in a nation’s political sovereignty, directly or not, ours or not. [/quote]
When I say “unprecedented” I am referring to a foreign military or intel agency using the fruits of its espionage in a direct act of subversion of a United States election (for reasons that are painfully obvious, it really doesn’t concern me at the moment that this shit has happened in Nicaragua). You are welcome to find and cite evidence that I’m wrong.
[Quote]
The safe assumption is the shit leaking into the “press” isn’t the whole story, by a long shot, and that the DNC emails are only a fraction of the actual events… And likely a diversion from some larger deception going on. [/quote]
Either you have evidence of this or it’s an actual and meaningless conspiracy theory, as opposed to the evidence-based analysis against which you are struggling.
You keep saying stuff like this, but you don’t dispute any evidence, you neither can nor have tried to show how the facts as they are presently arrayed constitute “bait,” and so on and so forth. You aren’t arguing against anybody on even a hint of substance. This is literally not more than meaningless innuendo.
It’s not, this is the natural conclusion of your position.
Trump is being lead by a pro-Kremlin cretin to the point where he’s being duped into taking pro-Putin positions. He would have to be Manafort’s lapdog with a very limited ability to think for himself. How many times have the anti-Trumpers in this thread referred to Trump as an idiot, moron, buffoon?
Lol ok, we will make this tsk tsk Democrats for a minute if it is so important (that it is, given what’s really at issue here, is numbingly sad).
He said what, they are our no. 1 geopolitical foe? First of all, if we’re being pedantic and technical, who gives a shit? International politics is not a listicle. By what criteria would you rank this? Is there some objective standard?
Anyway, I would have at the time said that China is more dangerous in the long term, just as territorially shifty, and will in fact be an actual military rival (or, possibly, superior) to the United States in my lifetime. It is also more credible, as China’s GDP is significant whereas Russia’s is a little smaller than that of California.
In 2012, while it was still in possession of 100 percent of its enriched uranium and its centrifuges were spinning it toward a permanent collapse of non-proliferation in the Earth’s worst region, Iran would have been a real contender as well.
But I really don’t care. The world isn’t a list to be ranked, it is a complex system. If the Russians did this overtly, as it appears they did, then they have certainly crossed a line nobody else ever has (doesn’t really count as evidence in 2012 though, does it?).
Yeah, you can make a very strong case for Russia as our greatest adversary, and Obama and the Dems knew that, and instead of agreeing they scored rhetorical political points by mocking Romney, and that was a dirty move and a dishonest one. We will call it instance 34,658 of unfair politicking in the chronicle of the 2012 election. So go ahead: dig up, dust off, and correct the 2012 scoresheet.
Then, join us in observing that here, now, a POTUS candidate has apparently benefited from a GRU hack while signalling to Vladimir Putin that the streets of Riga just might find a way to accomodate Russian tanks without American meddling.
LMAO…excellent Mufasa
He really was Beans. They are and have been the biggest danger to the world for many years.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/25/opinions/dnc-emails-russia-opinion-tim-naftali/
The Vietnam examples make me all warm and fuzzy too, seeing as Russians were certainly not involved in that at all.
See above Johnson/Humphrey angle.
The fact I believe both the White House and the Clinton camp know more than they are letting on to the press is coined a “conspiracy theory” by someone railing on and on, over and over, about national security and the “outrage” of the particular leaked hacking makes me chuckle.
Funny that yesterday you conceded that I was in fact 100% correct in the statement that nothing (at the time) was confirmed, but today that doesn’t count as evidence?
Pat made the point, and you and other have continuously ignored an obvious question I keep posing.
It’s sort of like this:
EMPLOYER: Well John Smith I have you on video drunk and yelling racially insensitive words at customers. You are terminated effective today.
JOHN SMITH: Whoa there Chief, Jack gave you that video so I would get fired because he likes Tommy better, and Tommy is encouraging Jack to give you more videos showing even more things I’ve done that make me look like the asswipe I am. And to top it all off, Tommy wants to see this company burn because he feels slighted. So once you make him manager he’ll destroy your business and try and take your customers away.
EMPLOYER: Okay. That doesn’t justify your actions, and considering your actions are equally destructive to our way of life as any planned action by Tommy, I don’t see it as relative in any way, shape or form. That Jack and Tommy may have even conspired to get you fired still doesn’t change the fact that you performed these actions that are unequivocally damaging to our brand.
JOHN: But TOMMY, tommy, tommy
And you’ve just continued the tommy chants.
No, it’s half trolling because of how fired up you guys are at the evilz Russians. And completely careless about the content of the leak, which is exactly what the WH and Clinton team want.
The rest is entertainment that you and others think that this event, which you obviously believe is an extremely significant geopolitical happening, is actually on full disclosure in the press and we aren’t all just taking out of our ass about it.
Why is that so far off the mark? He has shown repeatedly that he has limited interest in doing boring presidential stuff (VP offer to Kasich comes to mind), has a short attention span and has trouble dealing with boring geopolitical facts.
An advisor who feeds him easy-to-understand soundbites and a dictator who strokes his ego and feeds his narcissism… more than sufficient.
Or the explanation is more sinister, as speculated by George Will:
Okay… Your really not seeing the entire point I’ve been trying to make now? You’ve just made it, perfectly for me.
This whole email thing is a “BIG FUCKING DEAL” guys. Right?
But ridiculing Romney for foreseeing such “BIG FUCKING DEALS” is just “dirty politics” and bringing it up is just “correcting score cards” and sour grapes?
No.
In fact, bringing it up is actually agreeing with you it’s a “BIG FUCKING DEAL” guys, and we, as a country fucked up by electing the moron who made jokes about it. That is more damaging to our world standing than Trump cracking jokes about releasing more emails.
Four years ago we opened ourselves up to allow this to happen by electing the man who ridiculed the truth. Which this whole leak PROVES was the truth, right?
Now we’re about to do the same thing (not that I think Trump would be better at this mind you) and you’re now focused on the Russians, where in 2012 you were focused on ridiculing Romney. (Proverbial you, I don’t know if you joined in on the chorus of bashing Romney for that statement.)
Our own “dirty” politics are more damaging to us, our way of life and our “place in the world” than any foreign intervention into a campaign, particularly given it won’t sway the polls at all, because you’re all focused on the wrong half of it, and will continue to be, until in 30 years we all look back and admit that the dirty politics got in the way of the truth, and had we actually gone with the truth, maybe we wouldn’t be talking about this god damn leak right now?
[Typed on device, not laptop or PC, so…probably incoherent and sloppy]
– None of those are examples of what I’m talking about. And contrary to how CNN is writing it up, the evidence for most of that is sketchy; e.g. the Chennault affair, which has big gaps in it, constituted an intervention on Nixon’s part, not on anybody else’s – what the S. Vietnamese did was certainly not in our best interests, but they were legally free to conduct themselves as they saw fit in negotiations to which they were party. They did not sneak covertly into our system and then overtly disrupt it; nobody contends that it was an illegal intervention in domestic American affairs for them to walk away from current talks – to which they were party and sovereign – in hopes of better ones in the future. (What Nixon did, on the other hand, was illegal.) No, what I’m talking about, as was already covered extensively in this thread, is such a direct act of subversion as the widespread publication of the fruits of foreign mil-intel espionage. It’s unprecedented.
– “See the Johnson/Humphrey angle,” which is not analogous and, in any event, is not this case, does not constitute evidence of the amorphous and meaningless conspiracy you’re alleging, that Obama and Hillary “know” something more. You either do or do not have evidence of this, and you either do or do not have evidence that this “more” that they know alters in some material way the totality of the circumstances and the rational conclusion arising from that totality. In both cases, you do not have the evidence, so, until that changes, there is noting more to say about it. Full stop.
– “Funny that yesterday you conceded that I was in fact 100% correct in the statement that nothing (at the time) was confirmed, but today that doesn’t count as evidence?” No, I said that you were right to register the mechanical caveat that “well look, the evidence and consensus clearly and compellingly point to X, but the seals and stamps haven’t been deployed yet, and we haven’t made it official, and there are dots left to connect, so let’s keep in mind that things could change.” And if things were to change, then our analysis would change, etc.
…But you are unambiguously not correct when you ignore the evidence as it now is arrayed in order to talk about “bait” and pretend that this is some kind of far-fetched fantasy rather than the current rational conclusion based on the available facts, which is precisely what it is, and you are not going to show otherwise without discovering and producing new evidence. The facts and the consensus point now in one direction. You cannot, and have not tried to, refute or question or resist this simple reality by anything other than innuendo.
– As for the DNC leak, I was never going to care about it, because I already knew about it. I know these people, on both sides. I have for years. You should fucking hear what they say to each other at the bar. A half a dozen people exchanging emails about “a few points with my southern baptist peeps” is not news to me. The private emails of people who very obviously curry political favor – uh, they are part of a political machine – do not concern me vis-a-vis international espionage. And you are simply pretending that they are much more grave than they are (note: I’m not saying they don’t show slimy corruption, and I’m not saying it shouldn’t be fixed, and I’m not saying nobody should be angry) because you have become one of the tribalists, apparently.
But none of the previous paragraph matters, because, drum roll: the hack and what it revealed are separate issues. I am talking about the hack, because it is much more grave and the stakes are much higher and I don’t give a shit about the email-trail of Hillary-favor among DNC insiders. I don’t have to choose the emails over the hack, because I’m an adult living in the world of politics and am totally free to choose what concerns me…particularly when that thing is by an infinite measure the most objectively concerning and serious item in the news, not just this week or month, but this year.
Let me try and give some perspective here as to why I don’t give a flying fuck about Russia at the moment, and think NATO can get fucked, so don’t care if Trump would back out or not.
Geopolitics are not my biggest concern, and because they aren’t mine, I think a whole lot of you who value freedom, rule of law and checks and balances should be a lot more focused on domestic matters right now, that aren’t how shitty Trump is.
8 days ago, I became a de facto felon in my state because I followed a law written and enforced the same for 18+ years. I’m not a felon because our AG “reinterpreted” the law to “close a loophole” and plenty of lawyers and our shit bag Governor are okay with it, and openly support it.
I have no recourse, except petition my representatives, than to finally decide if I’m going to turn them in or die for my principles. Confiscation is literally next, and the fascists in my state government have made that abundantly clear in their ambiguity. This isn’t hyperbole, this isn’t histrionics, this is happening in Massachusetts.
She’s doing all this so she could stand on stage Tuesday night and brag about being a fascist, to CHEERS. They cheered her guys. They clapped for a tyrant who unilaterally changed 18 years of precedence and trampled on rights and a minority group of citizens. The same people that think police are racists and out to kill black, cheer that they are the only ones allowed guns.
None of this is false, none of this is exaggeration and none of what I’m saying should be looked upon lightly.
Is the Russian deal here a concern? Sure. But we’ve got bigger issues, and we can’t be part of NATO if we are destroyed from the inside.
Getting more and more interesting.
Stop projecting.
You aren’t even arguing what I’m saying anymore.
You aren’t this stupid, stop pretending to be.
Email hack and release, particularly if by the Russia Government is a natation security issue. That I KNOW our government doesn’t release all the details of national security issues to the public is being called a conspiracy theory is absolutely fucking ridiculous and you are making yourself look like a absolute pittbull level poster right now.
You can not talk out of both sides of your month on this.
This is either a national security issue, and a threat to the world order or it isn’t. And if it is, which you’ve alleged you can’t honestly call the notion the government wouldn’t disclose all the information it has about said issue a “conspiracy theory”.
Stop trying to “be correct” and actually listen to the argument I’m making.
It does more than make the DNC look bad. Otherwise why would Debbie Wasserman have been thrown out of her position? If there was nothing to see why is there an upheaval in the DNC?
I have read quite a few of those emails. No media spin, just me and wikileaks. It not only makes the DNC look bad, it exposes some Hillary tactics that we pretty crooked. Like the fact that she stole 99% of the $61 million Victory Fund. The Victory Fund was created for the campaigns of downstream democrats. The fund was for Senators ad Reps and the Federal and State level. She stole 99% of the money and got caught. I posted that email ^^^ up there. This is not conjecture, it’s fact.
Again, there is no evidence to support the Russian government was behind the attack. Russians appear to have done it, but the government connection has yet to be established.That may later come to light, but it has not yet. Why so eager to jump the gun on that?
At least you know the RNC played fair… Nobody wanted this guy to win.
That’s fine, but Gary Johnson is not going to be President. The president is going to be Hillary or Trump.
I am not wasting my vote on somebody with zero chance of winning.
Sad to see you’ve bought into this.