The Muslim Holocaust

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Pat - do you ever consider that maybe the “terrorists” dont “hate us for merely existing”, but instead see the victims of terrorism as “collateral damage”? That they see what they’re doing as a “war” and using the same logic that “War is ugly and it always will be. There seldom is a proper reason for people to die over it, but it happens.”?

Wouldn’t you be a little upset to hear someone say that exact thing about American deaths?[/quote]

LOL @ the targeting of civilians being “collateral”.

“Collateral damage is damage that is unintended or incidental to the intended outcome”
[/quote]

There is no LOL here, be better than that!

On one side, you have a peoples that still throw rocks at tanks. On the other, a superpower that can bomb you from their control room without ever looking you in the eye. Terrorism is the commerce of their war because they lack the resources to fight us (and others) on our terms.

Issues of what constitutes a “military target” aside, there isn’t much difference between hi-jacking a plane and sending it into a building and firing a volley of cruise missiles at a City with both combatants and civilians.

They are both forms of war. Trying to apply “rules” to war, whether legal (by agreement) or moral, is meaningless. [/quote]

Intentionally targeting and killing innocent people and attempting to spare as many civilians while the opponents attempt to maximize their own civilian casualties are not equivalent at all.[/quote]

War is war. You do what you can with what you have. It’s what they have. Are you applying some form of morality to war? If you are, I’d like to hear it. I’d like to hear the difference between the life of an enemy combatant and an innocent civilian. It deserves its own thread in fact.

82

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
BG, I believe the Quran is the only major religious text that condones killing the enemies of the religion. Could be mistaken though- wouldnt be a first.[/quote]

Assuming for a moment this is correct, doesn’t the Bible “teach” many things that no longer occur? Killing? Sacrifices, etc.? I think the question is how the majority practice the religion - not the extremist, because there are extremist in all disciplines. And the more I talk about all this religious stuff, the more I lean toward Buddhism.

83

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
BG, I believe the Quran is the only major religious text that condones killing the enemies of the religion. Could be mistaken though- wouldnt be a first.[/quote]

You might want to pick up a bible and read the old testament.

84

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
BG, I believe the Quran is the only major religious text that condones killing the enemies of the religion. Could be mistaken though- wouldnt be a first.[/quote]

You might want to pick up a bible and read the old testament. [/quote]

God commanded the killing of specific enemies at specific times in the bible, but you are going to have to point out where that was ever given as a general rule.

85

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
BG, I believe the Quran is the only major religious text that condones killing the enemies of the religion. Could be mistaken though- wouldnt be a first.[/quote]

Like all things religious, a little context might be enlightening:

http://www.quranicstudies.com/articles/peace-in-the-quran/does-the-quran-teach-violence.html

86

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
BG, I believe the Quran is the only major religious text that condones killing the enemies of the religion. Could be mistaken though- wouldnt be a first.[/quote]

You might want to pick up a bible and read the old testament. [/quote]

God commanded the killing of specific enemies at specific times in the bible, but you are going to have to point out where that was ever given as a general rule.[/quote]

And I’ll refer you accordingly:

http://www.quranicstudies.com/articles/peace-in-the-quran/does-the-quran-teach-violence.html

Sounds both specific and temporal to me. In fact, it sounds to be a defensive posture.

87

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
BG, I believe the Quran is the only major religious text that condones killing the enemies of the religion. Could be mistaken though- wouldnt be a first.[/quote]

Assuming for a moment this is correct, doesn’t the Bible “teach” many things that no longer occur? Killing? Sacrifices, etc.? I think the question is how the majority practice the religion - not the extremist, because there are extremist in all disciplines. And the more I talk about all this religious stuff, the more I lean toward Buddhism. [/quote]

Sorry BG I suck at quoting, you asked on the page prior to this (I believe, Ill find it after this) do they hate us or did we make them hate us? Something along those lines, I was just trying to show that Islam is a rough religion. Don’t get me wrong, I think the West has played a part in isolating Islam. But even going back the Spanish American war there was Islamic terroristd involved, the story of General “Black Jack” Pershing comes to mind.

88

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Oh, and those “terrorist attacks” wouldn’t be happening if those “coalitions” weren’t there.[/quote]

No, they’d probably happening here, Israel or in Europe. Lest you for get that they hate our guts for merely existing…Except when they need help or a no fly zone declared, then they are our best friends. After which they return to hating our guts.

And numbers do matter. No matter how you slice it, 100,000 is better than 1,000,000. In the case of Asscrackistan, I don’t see really where we had a choice. It was a case of kill or be killed such was their self proclaimed doctrine.[/quote]

Do they really hate us for existing? Or do they hate us for interfering in their affairs? Can you make a sound argument for their “hating us for existing”?
[/quote]

BG this is the post I was referring to above.

89

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
BG, I believe the Quran is the only major religious text that condones killing the enemies of the religion. Could be mistaken though- wouldnt be a first.[/quote]

You might want to pick up a bible and read the old testament. [/quote]

I knew someone would bring that up, I have not read the entire OT, but I don’t think God tells people to go smite non-Christians, doesn’t he do most of the smiting himself in the OT?

90

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
BG, I believe the Quran is the only major religious text that condones killing the enemies of the religion. Could be mistaken though- wouldnt be a first.[/quote]

Assuming for a moment this is correct, doesn’t the Bible “teach” many things that no longer occur? Killing? Sacrifices, etc.? I think the question is how the majority practice the religion - not the extremist, because there are extremist in all disciplines. And the more I talk about all this religious stuff, the more I lean toward Buddhism. [/quote]

Sorry I didn’t even answer your question in any of my posts. You’re 100% correct there are many things in the bible that no long occur. Good point regarding the extremists- my question is why are the majority of Muslims (moderates I would guess) not taking actions against the extremist?

91

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
BG, I believe the Quran is the only major religious text that condones killing the enemies of the religion. Could be mistaken though- wouldnt be a first.[/quote]

Assuming for a moment this is correct, doesn’t the Bible “teach” many things that no longer occur? Killing? Sacrifices, etc.? I think the question is how the majority practice the religion - not the extremist, because there are extremist in all disciplines. And the more I talk about all this religious stuff, the more I lean toward Buddhism. [/quote]

Sorry BG I suck at quoting, you asked on the page prior to this (I believe, Ill find it after this) do they hate us or did we make them hate us? Something along those lines, I was just trying to show that Islam is a rough religion. Don’t get me wrong, I think the West has played a part in isolating Islam. But even going back the Spanish American war there was Islamic terroristd involved, the story of General “Black Jack” Pershing comes to mind.[/quote]

Well, you’re really touching on why I reject religion period. Anything can be perverted to suit your interests. And man certainly has selfish interests. I made a comment in another thread that I stand by that pretty much goes like this:

If it’s good, it came from God.

If it’s confusing, threatening, jealous, petty, tortured, nonsensical, conflicting, angry, hating, exclusionary, etc. you can be sure it came from man.

I can pick up both the Bible and the Quran and find God in both places. And I can also smell the deception and stench of man in both too, along with the manner in which both “faiths” have been practiced. Likewise, I can find good God fearing, ethical people of both Christian and Islamic faiths.

Whether someone wrote an inspired and pure scripture (without corruption from man) or I was moved to sacrifice my own self-interest to help a fellow man, both in my opinion were “inspired” by God.

You can label yourself and anyone else whatever you like (Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc.) but you really are what you do, not what you call yourself.

92

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
BG, I believe the Quran is the only major religious text that condones killing the enemies of the religion. Could be mistaken though- wouldnt be a first.[/quote]

You might want to pick up a bible and read the old testament. [/quote]

God commanded the killing of specific enemies at specific times in the bible, but you are going to have to point out where that was ever given as a general rule.[/quote]

A religion on paper is rarely reflective of a religion in the real world. Christianity has as savage and bloody a past as any major religion on Earth. To the millions that have died in the name of Christ or God or Allah, hairsplitting over the original text’s views on who can and cannot be killed matters little. Religion is an Earthly institution and is therefore filled with all of the corruption and evil that man has invented here on Earth.

Though the relationship between the Nazi party and religion was complex, we must not forget that the two bloodiest wars in human history were waged in Christendom within the last century.

93

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
BG, I believe the Quran is the only major religious text that condones killing the enemies of the religion. Could be mistaken though- wouldnt be a first.[/quote]

Assuming for a moment this is correct, doesn’t the Bible “teach” many things that no longer occur? Killing? Sacrifices, etc.? I think the question is how the majority practice the religion - not the extremist, because there are extremist in all disciplines. And the more I talk about all this religious stuff, the more I lean toward Buddhism. [/quote]

Sorry I didn’t even answer your question in any of my posts. You’re 100% correct there are many things in the bible that no long occur. Good point regarding the extremists- my question is why are the majority of Muslims (moderates I would guess) not taking actions against the extremist? [/quote]

That’s a complex answer. For one, many of the extremist happen to be their leaders. For another, from their point of view, they are involved in a defensive war. I repeat, they haven’t exactly occupied any of our territories.

I’m not advocating for one side or the other. I think war is wrong and I think we are not innocent and neither are they. There is plenty of blame to spread and not enough “faith” in that which both claim to believe. I’m just saying I can understand their position. When was the last time you had a Muslim military force occupying US soil? If we did, it might change your perspective and give some insight into the rhetoric.

As for inaction, don’t we have religious extremist in our very country? What have we done? Abortion clinics are bombed. The topic itself is a political hot potato - because of the religious right. Gays still can’t marry in most States. Racism is still justified by perverted biblical reference. And of course, we do have domestic terrorism.

Apparently there are no easy answers here. But maybe the answer is that which we can’t seem to do - love each other. Isn’t that the true teaching of the various faiths?

94

[quote]smh23 wrote:

Though the relationship between the Nazi party and religion was complex, we must not forget that the two bloodiest wars in human history were waged in Christendom within the last century.[/quote]

Wait, which ones?

95

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

Though the relationship between the Nazi party and religion was complex, we must not forget that the two bloodiest wars in human history were waged in Christendom within the last century.[/quote]

Wait, which ones?[/quote]

WWI and WWII, with a shout out to our Shinto brethren.

96

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

Though the relationship between the Nazi party and religion was complex, we must not forget that the two bloodiest wars in human history were waged in Christendom within the last century.[/quote]

Wait, which ones?[/quote]

WWII (undisputed) and WWI including the 1918 flu pandemic which was born of the war and would otherwise never have reached global distribution or mutated to such an extent as to be so lethal. If you’d like to remove WWI my point still stands.

97

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

Though the relationship between the Nazi party and religion was complex, we must not forget that the two bloodiest wars in human history were waged in Christendom within the last century.[/quote]

Wait, which ones?[/quote]

WWI and WWII, with a shout out to our Shinto brethren.

[/quote]

waged primarily in Christendom

98

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

Though the relationship between the Nazi party and religion was complex, we must not forget that the two bloodiest wars in human history were waged in Christendom within the last century.[/quote]

Wait, which ones?[/quote]

WWII (undisputed) and WWI including the 1918 flu pandemic which was born of the war and would otherwise never have reached global distribution or mutated to such an extent as to be so lethal. If you’d like to remove WWI my point still stands.[/quote]

…nazi germany is chirtendom…?

And I’m confused are yall contending that these wars happened in places that were christian or that Christianity was part of the conflict?

99

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

Though the relationship between the Nazi party and religion was complex, we must not forget that the two bloodiest wars in human history were waged in Christendom within the last century.[/quote]

Wait, which ones?[/quote]

WWII (undisputed) and WWI including the 1918 flu pandemic which was born of the war and would otherwise never have reached global distribution or mutated to such an extent as to be so lethal. If you’d like to remove WWI my point still stands.[/quote]

…nazi germany is chirtendom…?

And I’m confused are yall contending that these wars happened in places that were christian or that Christianity was part of the conflict?[/quote]

As I said, the relationship between the Nazi party and religion was a complex one and its something I’m not going to get into now.

Germany, though, was primarily Christian, regardless of the Nazi party’s cognitive dissonance with regard to belief. Hitler was elected by a Christian nation and the people who waged the war–the troops that did the actual killing–were overwhelmingly Christian on both the Allied and Axis sides.

The war took place in Christendom, yes.

Perhaps there are better examples, like every war in Europe for the entirety of the Early and High Middle Ages.

The claim that Christianity has blood–tons of fucking blood–on its hands is not seriously disputed by rational people.

100

Christianity defined the nations that waged these wars. Many were overtly religious, some were not. My point is simply that, regardless of the original intention of a religion’s founders, vicious man will bend any powerful institution into a weapon. That, to me, is what has mattered most in history.

To paraphrase my boy Mark Twain, Christianity is a wonderful idea and its a shame no nation has ever tried it.