[quote]farmerson12 wrote:
Lol. I love how discussions that deal within the realm of Christianity or for that matter, any religion, get pricks who dont believe in it at all. And supposively Christians are closeminded bigots and racists. Silly me, I should know that its ok for Christians to be ridiculed. [/quote]
Welcome to the internet.
I’d have more sympathy if this was a Christianity forum. But it’s not.
[quote]haney1 wrote:
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]haney1 wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
LOL - you’ve stumped them Joab!
Sorry for the brain-strain fellows, but what he is asking about is the various versions of the end of time/end of days prior to the final judgement of Christ.
There are 3 main groups (but a myriad of subgroups and overlaps)
post-millennialists - no rapture/time of tribulation(7 years) prior to the 1,000 year reign
A-millennialists - no rapture, no thousand year reign and no tribulation (figurative, not literal)
pre-millennialists - rapture of the faithful prior to the tribulation and 1,000 year reign
At least that’s what my tired old brain remembers of the various POV’s[/quote]
that isn’t quite true about the a-millennialists. We actually do hold that the thousand year rain is figurative, and it is currently on going since Jesus is seated in Heaven.
for a really great discource on all of the perspectives I highly recommend Steve Greg’s website
http://www.thenarrowpath.com/
look up his topical lectures > the when shall these things be.
By far the best presentation on all three views I have heard.
edit
and yes we do believe in the tribulation we just believe it happened during the sacking of Jerusalem in the first century.
We also believe in a second coming and a Judgement day.[/quote]
Cool ill check it out, I always enjoy presentations that look at the main sides on a topic.[/quote]
So what do you struggle with the a-mil position?
And seriously you think the post mil is believable? I find that one the hardest to accept.
I am all for being positive, but I mean the concept that the world will get better only because of an increased Spirit of God is really hard to accept.[/quote]
I would certainly have to look into it more but as Ive read through the book of Ezekiel about the Messiah ruling the nations with a rod of iron for a thousand years and the angel Gabriel telling mary in luke that he will sit or take the throne of david which is a earthly or national throne. Haven’t check out the presentation yet been a bit occupied with errands and homework.
I think the committee made an error to let Revelations (and Daniel) into the Bible in the first place;-)
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]haney1 wrote:
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]haney1 wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
LOL - you’ve stumped them Joab!
Sorry for the brain-strain fellows, but what he is asking about is the various versions of the end of time/end of days prior to the final judgement of Christ.
There are 3 main groups (but a myriad of subgroups and overlaps)
post-millennialists - no rapture/time of tribulation(7 years) prior to the 1,000 year reign
A-millennialists - no rapture, no thousand year reign and no tribulation (figurative, not literal)
pre-millennialists - rapture of the faithful prior to the tribulation and 1,000 year reign
At least that’s what my tired old brain remembers of the various POV’s[/quote]
that isn’t quite true about the a-millennialists. We actually do hold that the thousand year rain is figurative, and it is currently on going since Jesus is seated in Heaven.
for a really great discource on all of the perspectives I highly recommend Steve Greg’s website
http://www.thenarrowpath.com/
look up his topical lectures > the when shall these things be.
By far the best presentation on all three views I have heard.
edit
and yes we do believe in the tribulation we just believe it happened during the sacking of Jerusalem in the first century.
We also believe in a second coming and a Judgement day.[/quote]
Cool ill check it out, I always enjoy presentations that look at the main sides on a topic.[/quote]
So what do you struggle with the a-mil position?
And seriously you think the post mil is believable? I find that one the hardest to accept.
I am all for being positive, but I mean the concept that the world will get better only because of an increased Spirit of God is really hard to accept.[/quote]
I would certainly have to look into it more but as Ive read through the book of Ezekiel about the Messiah ruling the nations with a rod of iron for a thousand years and the angel Gabriel telling mary in luke that he will sit or take the throne of david which is a earthly or national throne. Haven’t check out the presentation yet been a bit occupied with errands and homework.[/quote]
I see. well I would probably say that you may be a little too literal in your reading of those passages. The number 1000 is used through the Bible as a term to describe alot or to include all.
For instance God owns the cattle on 1000 hills, or peters description of a day being like a 1000 years with regard to God’s view.
I would also say that the same rule applies to David’s thrown, while it literally existed, it is used to convey a greater meaning than a physical thrown.
OP stated,
“Now I don’t believe one’s position on this subject will determine if one is saved or not but I find this subject interesting since I am not quite sure how it will fold out. There those who hold to a amillennial position, and pre-tribulational or post-tribulational position. I don’t hold to a amillennial position but find the pre-tribulational or post-tribulational positions more tenable and am curious how the millennial kingdom will fit in with the everlasting kingdom.”
I, as stated in a reply above, consider myself to be of the “…pre-millennialists - rapture of the faithful prior to the tribulation and 1,000 year reign…” persuasion. During the Rapture, both the resurrected (dead) believers and the transfigured (alive) believers will be “caught up together” (I Thes. 4:16-17) to meet Christ in the air, that is, in the atmosphere between earth and heaven.
They will be removed from all distress (II Cor. 5:2,4; Phil. 3:21), from all persecution and oppression (Rev. 3:10), from the entire sphere of sin and from death (I Cor. 15:51-57); the rapture delievers them from the wrath to come (I Thes. 1:10; 5:9), that is, from the great tribulation.
The thousand-year reign of Christ (Rev. 20:4) is sometimes called the millennium, meaning a thousand years (mille is a Latin word meaning thousand, and annus a Latin word meaning year). The characteristics of this reign are the following: (1) It was predicted in the O.T. (Is. 9:6; 65:19-25; Dan. 7:13-14; Mic. 4:1-8; Zech. 14:1-9 cf. Rev. 2:25-28).
(2) Satan will be bound (rev. 20:2-3).
(3) Christ’s reign will be shared by the faithful of His churches(Rev. 2:26-27; 3:21; 5:10; 20:4), and possibly also by the resurrected O.T. saints (Ezek. 37:11-14; Eph. 2:14-22; 3:6; Heb. 11:39-40) and martyred tribulation saints (Rev. 6:9; 12::17).
(4) The people ruled by Christ will consist of those on earth who were faithful to Christ during the tribulation and who survived until the Lord’s coming and those born during the millennium (Rev. 14:12; 18:4; Is 65:20-23; Mat. 25:1).
(5) No unsaved will enter the kingdom (I Cor. 6:9-11; cf. Gal. 5:19-21).
(6) Those reigning with Christ stand far above all the nations, for they will minister to and rule both Israel and the other nations (Rev. 3:21; 5:10; 20:6; Mat. 19:28; Zeph. 3:9-20).
(7) There will be peace, safety, prosperity, and righteousness throughout the earth (Is. 2:2-4; Zech. 9:10).
(8) Nature will be restored to its original order, perfection, and beauty (Is. 65:17-25; Rom. 8:18-23).
(9) The nations during this reign are obliged to continue in faith in and obedience to Christ and His rule. However, some will choose the way of rebellion and disobedience and will be punished (Rev. 20:7-10).
(10) At the end of the thousand years, the kingdom will be delivered up by Jesus to the Father (I Cor. 15:24); then will begin the final and everlasting kingdom of God and the Lamb (Rev. 21:1-22:5).
[quote]TQB wrote:
I think the committee made an error to let Revelations (and Daniel) into the Bible in the first place;-)[/quote]
The committee never included a book by the name of Revelations into the Bible. There is a book called Revelation. Daniel is a great book of History of the people of Israel in Babylon so why should it not be in the Bible?
[quote]blacksheep wrote:
OP stated,
“Now I don’t believe one’s position on this subject will determine if one is saved or not but I find this subject interesting since I am not quite sure how it will fold out. There those who hold to a amillennial position, and pre-tribulational or post-tribulational position. I don’t hold to a amillennial position but find the pre-tribulational or post-tribulational positions more tenable and am curious how the millennial kingdom will fit in with the everlasting kingdom.”
I, as stated in a reply above, consider myself to be of the “…pre-millennialists - rapture of the faithful prior to the tribulation and 1,000 year reign…” persuasion. During the Rapture, both the resurrected (dead) believers and the transfigured (alive) believers will be “caught up together” (I Thes. 4:16-17) to meet Christ in the air, that is, in the atmosphere between earth and heaven.
They will be removed from all distress (II Cor. 5:2,4; Phil. 3:21), from all persecution and oppression (Rev. 3:10), from the entire sphere of sin and from death (I Cor. 15:51-57); the rapture delievers them from the wrath to come (I Thes. 1:10; 5:9), that is, from the great tribulation.
The thousand-year reign of Christ (Rev. 20:4) is sometimes called the millennium, meaning a thousand years (mille is a Latin word meaning thousand, and annus a Latin word meaning year). The characteristics of this reign are the following: (1) It was predicted in the O.T. (Is. 9:6; 65:19-25; Dan. 7:13-14; Mic. 4:1-8; Zech. 14:1-9 cf. Rev. 2:25-28).
(2) Satan will be bound (rev. 20:2-3).
(3) Christ’s reign will be shared by the faithful of His churches(Rev. 2:26-27; 3:21; 5:10; 20:4), and possibly also by the resurrected O.T. saints (Ezek. 37:11-14; Eph. 2:14-22; 3:6; Heb. 11:39-40) and martyred tribulation saints (Rev. 6:9; 12::17).
(4) The people ruled by Christ will consist of those on earth who were faithful to Christ during the tribulation and who survived until the Lord’s coming and those born during the millennium (Rev. 14:12; 18:4; Is 65:20-23; Mat. 25:1).
(5) No unsaved will enter the kingdom (I Cor. 6:9-11; cf. Gal. 5:19-21).
(6) Those reigning with Christ stand far above all the nations, for they will minister to and rule both Israel and the other nations (Rev. 3:21; 5:10; 20:6; Mat. 19:28; Zeph. 3:9-20).
(7) There will be peace, safety, prosperity, and righteousness throughout the earth (Is. 2:2-4; Zech. 9:10).
(8) Nature will be restored to its original order, perfection, and beauty (Is. 65:17-25; Rom. 8:18-23).
(9) The nations during this reign are obliged to continue in faith in and obedience to Christ and His rule. However, some will choose the way of rebellion and disobedience and will be punished (Rev. 20:7-10).
(10) At the end of the thousand years, the kingdom will be delivered up by Jesus to the Father (I Cor. 15:24); then will begin the final and everlasting kingdom of God and the Lamb (Rev. 21:1-22:5). [/quote]
What I find astonishing (if the general outline is true) is number 9. Is this what causes the millennial kingdom to end? What was the purpose of the millennial kingdom? Are people still sinning(Isn’t number 5 referring to the final kingdom) and die during this time period?
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]blacksheep wrote:
OP stated,
“Now I don’t believe one’s position on this subject will determine if one is saved or not but I find this subject interesting since I am not quite sure how it will fold out. There those who hold to a amillennial position, and pre-tribulational or post-tribulational position. I don’t hold to a amillennial position but find the pre-tribulational or post-tribulational positions more tenable and am curious how the millennial kingdom will fit in with the everlasting kingdom.”
I, as stated in a reply above, consider myself to be of the “…pre-millennialists - rapture of the faithful prior to the tribulation and 1,000 year reign…” persuasion. During the Rapture, both the resurrected (dead) believers and the transfigured (alive) believers will be “caught up together” (I Thes. 4:16-17) to meet Christ in the air, that is, in the atmosphere between earth and heaven.
They will be removed from all distress (II Cor. 5:2,4; Phil. 3:21), from all persecution and oppression (Rev. 3:10), from the entire sphere of sin and from death (I Cor. 15:51-57); the rapture delievers them from the wrath to come (I Thes. 1:10; 5:9), that is, from the great tribulation.
The thousand-year reign of Christ (Rev. 20:4) is sometimes called the millennium, meaning a thousand years (mille is a Latin word meaning thousand, and annus a Latin word meaning year). The characteristics of this reign are the following: (1) It was predicted in the O.T. (Is. 9:6; 65:19-25; Dan. 7:13-14; Mic. 4:1-8; Zech. 14:1-9 cf. Rev. 2:25-28).
(2) Satan will be bound (rev. 20:2-3).
(3) Christ’s reign will be shared by the faithful of His churches(Rev. 2:26-27; 3:21; 5:10; 20:4), and possibly also by the resurrected O.T. saints (Ezek. 37:11-14; Eph. 2:14-22; 3:6; Heb. 11:39-40) and martyred tribulation saints (Rev. 6:9; 12::17).
(4) The people ruled by Christ will consist of those on earth who were faithful to Christ during the tribulation and who survived until the Lord’s coming and those born during the millennium (Rev. 14:12; 18:4; Is 65:20-23; Mat. 25:1).
(5) No unsaved will enter the kingdom (I Cor. 6:9-11; cf. Gal. 5:19-21).
(6) Those reigning with Christ stand far above all the nations, for they will minister to and rule both Israel and the other nations (Rev. 3:21; 5:10; 20:6; Mat. 19:28; Zeph. 3:9-20).
(7) There will be peace, safety, prosperity, and righteousness throughout the earth (Is. 2:2-4; Zech. 9:10).
(8) Nature will be restored to its original order, perfection, and beauty (Is. 65:17-25; Rom. 8:18-23).
(9) The nations during this reign are obliged to continue in faith in and obedience to Christ and His rule. However, some will choose the way of rebellion and disobedience and will be punished (Rev. 20:7-10).
(10) At the end of the thousand years, the kingdom will be delivered up by Jesus to the Father (I Cor. 15:24); then will begin the final and everlasting kingdom of God and the Lamb (Rev. 21:1-22:5). [/quote]
What I find astonishing (if the general outline is true) is number 9. Is this what causes the millennial kingdom to end? What was the purpose of the millennial kingdom? Are people still sinning(Isn’t number 5 referring to the final kingdom) and die during this time period? [/quote]
that is one of the many reasons why I rejected the Pre-mil position.
I also reject the following
gap theory in daniel concerning the weeks
explination for generation in matt 24
dual fulfillment of old testamanet prophets that predicted a third temple instead of them referring to only a second temple.
the idea that temple sacrifices will be resumed for those who made it through the tribulation.
and many others
Stated,
“What I find astonishing (if the general outline is true) is number 9. Is this what causes the millennial kingdom to end? What was the purpose of the millennial kingdom? Are people still sinning(Isn’t number 5 referring to the final kingdom) and die during this time period?”
The book of Revelation gives no further details of the Millennium, probably because previous prophecies are sufficient. For example, after revealing there will be a new heaven and a new earth Isaiah goes on to say the present Jerusalem will first have its fulfillment in a time of peace and joy (Is. 65:17-25).
After the thousand years Satan will be loosed. Why he must be loosed can only be surmised. One reason may be that it is a final vindication of the justice of God. Also in every age man has been given the power to choose whom he will serve. This will be mankind’s final test. Will he choose God or Satan? Some might say that surely since people know how wonderful Christ’s reign will be they would all accept Him. But here it is clear that after a thousand years of Christ’s glorious reign, some will follow Satan at their first opportunity. This shows they are rebels at heart. In justice, God can do nothing but separate them from His blessings forever in the outer darkness.
Satan will probably deceive himself into believing he can yet defeat God. As the great deceiver he will be allowed to go out and successfully deceive those who still want to exalt themselves against Christ and His righteous rule and reign.
This will be Satan’s final attempt to deceive, and those who follow him will take part in his final defeat. Never again will there be any rebellion against God and His love.
Once again many will take the broad way of rebellion. Like so many during the ages of the past, they will reject God and His Word. They will refuse to learn from the examples of God’s judgments on Adam and Eve, on the world of Noah’s day, on Sodom and Gomorrah, on Egypt, on Israel, on Assyria, Babylon, Rome, and so many others.
As for sin and death during the Millennium Age, Scripture states that only the righteous will enter (I Cor. 6:9-11), yet, understandably, there will be births during this time. Also, death will exist in the Millennial kingdom and life spans will be much longer than they are now. No babies will die and old people will not die prematurely.
A person dying at 100 years of age will be like a baby dying today. There will still be habitual sinners, however. God will be patient, but by the time they reach the age of 100 they will be declared cursed (Is. 65:20). This means death, as Psalms 37:22 says, “those He declares cursed will be cut off.”
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]TQB wrote:
I think the committee made an error to let Revelations (and Daniel) into the Bible in the first place;-)[/quote]
The committee never included a book by the name of Revelations into the Bible. There is a book called Revelation. Daniel is a great book of History of the people of Israel in Babylon so why should it not be in the Bible?[/quote]
Well Daniel isn’t a prophet in the Jewish canon. As for revelation, a slip of the keyboard.
[quote]TQB wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]TQB wrote:
I think the committee made an error to let Revelations (and Daniel) into the Bible in the first place;-)[/quote]
The committee never included a book by the name of Revelations into the Bible. There is a book called Revelation. Daniel is a great book of History of the people of Israel in Babylon so why should it not be in the Bible?[/quote]
Well Daniel isn’t a prophet in the Jewish canon. As for revelation, a slip of the keyboard.[/quote]
Just giving you a hard time. It happens all the time.
I thought Daniel was a book in the Jewish Cannon? Is there something I am missing?
LOL - i was sitting here getting ready to post a long winded post about pre and post and all that good stuff, and then it hit me, you know what, this ia a great topic, and I don’t mean to sound offensive to anyone, and maybe I’m just a little tired today, but all I really care about is that I have accepted Christ as my savior and I know he is coming back for me at the Resurrection and I am going to be with God for all of eternity .
. . that’s good enough for me right now . . . what occurs after that is fascinating and all that, but really, it’s not not going to change a thing . . . like I said - no harm or offense intended. Good topic and worthy of disucssion to be sure, but just not that high on my list right now 
Yeah I know how you feel, and accepting Christ as our savior and having a relationship with him is indeed the most important thing; even though there are fascinating aspects that are fun to discuss about.
