Thank you!
From a recovery standpoint, I find that approach excellent because you reduce the loads a bit and there can some times almost a euphoric feel to the workout when you establish a good groove. There is more of an endurance aspect to it. Almost a rhythm with various exercises, sets, and reps while not draining yourself, but getting a really good ache, fatigue, and pump. Very ābodybuildingā in feel. I did notice I looked a bit more full and vascular from such training, although some argue maybe itās something more with capillaries engorgement, fluid retention, etc.
I will say, it was a breath of fresh air when feeling like I was overreaching with low volume and heavier load. His books offers almost a countless number of examples as heās a staunch believer that muscles adapt to a stimulus very, very quickly (within a few workouts) and you need to keep a constant change, yet maintain that kind of effect I mentioned. I havenāt done it in a while and I was actually thinking of breaking open the HDT book (PDF) and diving into it all again especially that I am at a different body weight now. If anything, variation or trying something completely different can be fun.
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Variety but with various intensity techniques from partial reps and various sequences to rest pause techniques, in formations I had not thought of. Cramming more into a shorter period.
I used to use 21s and dropsetsā¦he gave me more ideas to cycle through.
Bodybuilding focus versus strength. e.g. look like you lift more than be strong and not look like you lift.
yes I have gained size from his techniques. Quantifying is hardā¦I focused a lot on arms and it definitely moved the take measure.
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Yes, doing more contractions per unit of time is a key part of HDT. It helps achieve the desired effect.
I actually trained my legs this morning along these linesā¦used some full range, 1 1/4 reps, and some zones. Used the one leg squat (with DB) and leg press. Legs were pumped and felt like Jell-O afterward. lol Probably ended up with at least 7-8 āminiā sets. But definitely felt A LOT different compared to what I had been doing which was about 3 regular straight sets with longer rest and one movement.
Yeah, Johnstonās stuff was just what I needed when it came out . All I have is the Zone Training book / DVD but got tons of variation out of it.
You said it right about getting more contractions in the same unit of time ā¦ to me thatās the whole thing ; getting by that ā single set '/ full range being the only way ā mentality that I fell into over the years of training HIT and not being willing to listen to anything else.
I know Brian had another great book after Zone Training that I missed somehow and would like to get it. Anyone know where or if itās still available ? But even it not, the Zone Training really got me thinking and made all the difference in the world in my workouts.
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Have any Mentzer enthusiasts trialled the āmost productive routineā as outlined by John Little in an Iron Man article? I have outlined it below. Mike also added forced reps and negative (one a week on the latter). Frequency was every 72-96 hours. Is clearly more volume and frequency than he advocated for others. But it is talking about his personally most productive.
Workout 1 (Monday)
Legs
Superset
Leg extensions 1 x 6-8
Leg presses 1 x 6-8
Squats 1 x 6-8
Leg curls 2 x 6-8
Calf raises 2 x 6-8
Toe presses 1 x 6-8
Chest
Superset
Dumbbell flyes or pec deck 1-2 x 6-8
Incline presses 1-2 x 6-8
Dips 2 x 6-8
Triceps
Superset
Pushdowns 1 x 6-8
Dips 1 x 6-8
Lying triceps extensions 2 x 6-8
Workout 2 (Wednesday)
Back
Superset
Nautilus pullovers 2 x 6-8
Close-grip pulldowns 2 x 6-8
Bent-over barbell rows 2 x 6-8
Traps
Superset
Universal machine shrugs 2 x 6-8
Upright rows 2 x 6-8
Shoulders
Superset
Nautilus laterals 2 x 6-8
Nautilus presses 2 x 6-8
Rear-delt rows 2 x 6-8
Biceps
Standing barbell curls 1 x 6-8
Concentration curls 2 x 6-8
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That type of volume/frequency and split has been my most productive Heavy Duty routine.
Mark
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Same here ā¦ thatās not the split I do, but the whole idea of multiple sets in a split routine is along the same lines.
I couldnāt do legs with another major muscle group ā¦ I do abs with legs.
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It is the type of routine I aspire to but will work up to this with my simplified version meantime.
Some observations: doing two rounds (or cycles) on the supersets. It seems to me your option is to either drop the load quite significantly on the 2nd round or go to about 2 reps shy of failure on the 1st.
Would also be interested on your take on pre-exhaust. I love it because I can really feel the major muscle group on the main lift, e.g. bench = pecs; squat = quads, etc. But progression seems limited to the first, or isolation, exercise. Not both. Have you experienced this?
When I was doing Heavy Duty training a few months ago, I found that I really progressed on the isolation movement in the pre-exhaust really well. For example, moved from 85 to 110 lb dumbbells on flyes in just a few months. However, my incline bench improved at a snailās pace and was hard to improve workout to workout (ie more reps or weight) without having to resort to eeking out a few more reps via Rest pause. Iām obsessive and want to beat what I did last time on every exercise. So to sum up, I think youāre right on the money about making better progress on the first movement than the second and people who are obsessed with progressive overload like me, may have to do a drop set or Rest pause in order to increase the stimulus on the second exercise from what was done in the previous workout.
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Iāve done that routine before for a contest prep back in 2014 and around that for a year or two off and on. Results were fine as any other routine, it wasnāt some magical routine by any means. I shied away from it over time simply because I got tired of the super setting and having to always hustle between 2 machines for most workouts. The workout with legs/chest/triās were also a bear. By the time I got through with legs the last thing I usually had adequate energy for was to train chest and triceps very well.
The split I switched from that to was an intermediate split Dorian used and I liked it best out of any splits or full body I ever used while I trained HIT was -
Day 1 - Chest & Arms
Day 2 - Legs
Day 4 - Off
Day 5 - Back & Delts
Day 6 - Off
Day 7 - Start cycle over
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James ;
Without a doubt to do two sets or cycles āhardā I have two reduce the weight for that second set or cycle. If not then, youāll have two stop short of failure and/or increase rest between sets , which I do not like doing. My rest between sets are 15-20 seconds.
Youāre using the Pre-Ex just the way they were intended ā¦ to really feel the muscle working , not to build strength. You wouldnāt see a power lifter try and increase his bench press by pre-exhausting the chest.
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Same here , but for me thatās with with any major muscles. I cant do two ābigā groups in one workout and feel Iām doing justice to them. Thatās the main reason I got away from full body workouts ā¦ too much.
My split is Legs/Abs ; Chest/Shoulders/Triceps ; Back/Biceps. There of course is still some spill over, especially with shoulders but for me this split seems to keep most groups pretty fresh for their individual workouts.
And even though doing multiple sets totals around 15-18 sets may seem too break all the HIT rules, I still am finished those workouts at about thirty minutes ā¦ about 10 minutes per muscle group. I canāt call that āvolume trainingā.
Volume training is not about time
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In all actuality, even if you are simply maintaining the weight/reps on that second exercise of a pre-exhaust, you are really making progressā¦assuming you are progressing on your first movement. That first exercise is placing more demands as you increase weight and reps on itā¦so simply maintaining the second exercise performance is good.
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How about double pre-exhaust, compound/isolation/compound, which I have seen in Ellington books, or reverse pre-exhaust, not sure where I got that, but flys still involve the deltoids, so they are not a pure isolation movement. By doing presses first and moving to flyes, you can continue when the presses have exhausted your triceps, and then the presses become the movement that progresses instead of the flyes. Decline presses or dips followed by flyes may leave the deltoids fresh for flyes, as I think they involve the deltoids to a lesser degree than incline presses. Not to question the original routine or say itās not better to progress in flyes, just if you would rather progress in the press.
Iām doing the routine from the New HIT currently, and I like the pre exhaust and double pre exhaust cycles Darden created in his advanced specialization routines. I was able to make great progress in a short period of time, and REALLY brought my lats up with his lats specialization routine that featured a pre exhaust and a double pre exhaust for a total of 5 exercises specifically for lats and then a few exercises for the rest of the body. Lats were one of my weak points before and that routine really helped me make better progress on my lats in just two weeks than Iāve probably made in the last couple of years.
Thatās been referred to as Post-Exhaust by some, following the compound immediately with an isolation exercise. I think it also has some merit. I have found the same result in not being able to progress both exercises in a pre-exhaust cycle. What I have done is alternately progressing one or the other. 2 or 3 weeks progressing the isolation (still taking the compound to failure). Then, 2 or 3 weeks of taking the isolation 1 rep short of failure (NTF-keeping the weight the same for that time period) and attempting to progress the reps or weight on the compound. I found some success doing that.
Appreciate the reply. I suppose I was trying to gauge opinion on how folks judge āprogressā on supersets, given the constraints discussed regarding progressive overload. By way of example (using chest and load in KG):
WEEK 1
A1) Flyes 50 x 9
A2) Incline Press 100 x 7
WEEK 2
A1) Flyes 50 x 10
A2) Incline Press 100 x 7
WEEK 3
A1) Flyes 52.5 x 9
A2) Incline Press 100 x 6
After 3 weeks, you have progressively overloaded on the isolation movement but the compound is static, or even tailed off slightly by week 3. Iām not sure Mike ever covered this.
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I see where youāre coming from there.
What I do is something gleaned from Mike where he spoke about rotating the ātypeā of repetition on the isolation move, namely using a static contraction. For example, on chest, I will rotate flyes with a static contraction (in this case squeezing a Swiss ball to failure - as if I were at the top of a pec dec rep). I find this little bit of variety helps when the load/reps arenāt moving.