The Legacy of Abraham Lincoln

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

…The Confederate states were engaged in an unlawful insurrection against the legitimate government of the United States. Lincoln had every right to make war upon them…

[/quote]

But ultimately might made right in this particular dark chapter of history.
[/quote]

I wonder if the British have the same attitude about us? We were also engaged in an unlawful insurrection against the British, and might made right in that case as well. Why is this different? Both occurred ultimately to end injustice and restore personal freedoms.

62

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

Slaves could have been bought and freed by the Union, if that was what it wanted.

[/quote]

There were proposals to that effect but no guarantees it would’ve averted war. Sorry, Nick.

In fact, I don’t think it would’ve worked. Well, for at least a few more decades. The pro-slavery sentiment was very, very strong in the South. It was still somewhat strong even in the North in the years leading up to the war for that matter.[/quote]

I didn’t say that I believed war could have been avoided by buying and freeing the slaves-I said that the Union could have done that, if freeing slaves was what it really wanted. If the Confederates States seceded, there would still have been a war. If the United States’ leaders had any desire to cooperate with, and to stop occupying, the Confederate States the war likely would not have occurred.

I don’t think America’s recent wars in the middle east could have been avoided by all Americans converting to Islam, either-not if we continued to occupy those countries. The class bully usually won’t beat up kids who give him whatever he wants, but he’s going to try to hurt the kid who sticks up for himself.

63

[quote]pushharder wrote:
I know one thing, if I see one ding-dong pro legal abortion advocate on here deploring legalizing slavery I’m going to laugh him right out of his saddle.

Nothing can be more comically hypocritical than one ranting and raving about legalized slavery in America’s past and supporting legalized abortion in the present.[/quote]

Planning your Sophistry in advance this time, eh? Another suggestion from the last time this issue came up: familiarize yourself with primary sources this time.

64

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

They created a union in which slavery persisted, despite the fact that some of them spread the rumor that they believed that men were created equal.

[/quote]

People sure are good at looking back in time with the benefit of hindsight and making value judgments.

[/quote]

It doesn’t take hindsight to understand the irony in writing that all men are created equal while, at that very same instant, owning men. It cheapens and reduces the Founders, to excuse their faults by adding “context.” They weren’t Neanderthals. They were smart people. Their sins are their sins and they don’t get to hide from them.

Again, they created a union in which slavery persisted, despite the fact that some of them spread the rumor that they believed that men were created equal. Thank God this union no longer exists.

Edit: Note that you’re flirting with the role of moral relativist here. The Founders were products of their environments–yeah, so? We all are. Fred West was. They were, many of them, geniuses. They could have figured it all out. And some did.

65

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
though it could have happened sooner and without so much blood.[/quote]

Sooner? Sure.

Less bloodshed? I don’t know.

We’re talking about people’s livelihood here, and a practice that was accepted as “what you did” by just about every civilization, big or small, since the dawn of man.

Even if the Union ended up being two, they would have fought, and the European powers that wanted their colonies back would have pounded on the separate states.

This all assuming the issue of slavery was the “red line” of ratification. [/quote]

I say “less bloodshed” simply because it has happened at times and in places, not because I want to engage in some kind of comprehensive counter-factual.

66

“From a persuasion that equal liberty was originally the Portion, It is still the Birthright of all men, & influenced by the strong ties of Humanity & the Principles of their Institution, your Memorialists conceive themselves bound to use all justifiable endeavours to loosen the bounds of Slavery and promote a general Enjoyment of the blessings of Freedom. Under these Impressions they earnestly entreat your serious attention to the Subject of Slavery, that you will be pleased to countenance the Restoration of liberty to those unhappy Men, who alone, in this land of Freedom, are degraded into perpetual Bondage, and who, amidst the general Joy of surrounding Freemen, are groaning in Servile Subjection, that you will devise means for removing this Inconsistency from the Character of the American People, that you will promote mercy and Justice towards this distressed Race, & that you will Step to the very verge of the Powers vested in you for discouraging every Species of Traffick in the Persons of our fellow men.”

They could write it, they could read it, they could understand it. But if you say that it’s a damn good thing we corrected their error in not living by it, you’re a Monday morning, hindsight quarterback? No. You’re just saying something that’s correct.

67

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Hey guys, I’m from Canada, so American history was never a substantial part of my curriculum, what books or sources would you consider recommending?[/quote]

I thought Revolutionary Summer was pretty good.

72

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Hey guys, I’m from Canada, so American history was never a substantial part of my curriculum, what books or sources would you consider recommending?[/quote]

I thought Revolutionary Summer was pretty good.

[/quote]

Thanks usmc

73

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

Do you believe that American history would have had a better outcome had the Confederacy been allowed to establish itself as a sovereign state?
[/quote]

Define better outcome. It’s tough to do.[/quote]

Nick demonizes power, the pursuit of which defines politics. It’s very doubtful that America would have achieved great power status and regional hegemony at the end of the 19th century had the CSA been permitted to exist. An important component of America’s position in the distribution of power has been its geography. The Atlantic and the Pacific oceans pose almost insurmountable obstacles to any potential invader. Contiguous geography is a paramount security consideration. Recall Germany’s historical anxieties regarding its neighbors to the west and east.

74

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

…The Confederate states were engaged in an unlawful insurrection against the legitimate government of the United States. Lincoln had every right to make war upon them…

[/quote]

But ultimately might made right in this particular dark chapter of history.
[/quote]

I wonder if the British have the same attitude about us? We were also engaged in an unlawful insurrection against the British, and might made right in that case as well. Why is this different? Both occurred ultimately to end injustice and restore personal freedoms.[/quote]

Yes, force is the ultima ratio in politics. Right and wrong is a matter of perspective. You fall into one normative camp or the other depending on what you stood to lose (or win) in the fight. Considering the United States special relationship with the U.K. now, I doubt they hold much enmity towards the event.

75

[quote]Bismark wrote:
Yes, force is the ultima ratio in politics. Right and wrong is a matter of perspective. You fall into one normative camp or the other depending on what you stood to lose (or win) in the fight. Considering the United States special relationship with the U.K. now, I doubt they hold much enmity towards the event.[/quote]

So right and wrong do not exist? If one is killed, then he is wrong? If a murder is never discovered, then the murderer is right?

76

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

They created a union in which slavery persisted, despite the fact that some of them spread the rumor that they believed that men were created equal.

[/quote]

People sure are good at looking back in time with the benefit of hindsight and making value judgments.

[/quote]

It doesn’t take hindsight to understand the irony in writing that all men are created equal while, at that very same instant, owning men. It cheapens and reduces the Founders, to excuse their faults by adding “context.” They weren’t Neanderthals. They were smart people. Their sins are their sins and they don’t get to hide from them.

Again, they created a union in which slavery persisted, despite the fact that some of them spread the rumor that they believed that men were created equal. Thank God this union no longer exists.

Edit: Note that you’re flirting with the role of moral relativist here. The Founders were products of their environments–yeah, so? We all are. Fred West was. They were, many of them, geniuses. They could have figured it all out. And some did.[/quote]

I agree with you. Don’t get me wrong.

Thing is, and this is necessarily directed at you, folks will use the “relative context” angle on abortion too.

Slavery was wrong on all counts then. It’s wrong today.

Abortion was wrong on all counts when Roe v Wade came down. It’s wrong today. [/quote]

I agree with you almost completely, Push. However, I’m not sure that, in the future, people will look back and marvel that it was legal. I’m afraid people might look back and marvel that there were those who wanted to stop it.

77

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

They created a union in which slavery persisted, despite the fact that some of them spread the rumor that they believed that men were created equal.

[/quote]

People sure are good at looking back in time with the benefit of hindsight and making value judgments.

[/quote]

It doesn’t take hindsight to understand the irony in writing that all men are created equal while, at that very same instant, owning men. It cheapens and reduces the Founders, to excuse their faults by adding “context.” They weren’t Neanderthals. They were smart people. Their sins are their sins and they don’t get to hide from them.

Again, they created a union in which slavery persisted, despite the fact that some of them spread the rumor that they believed that men were created equal. Thank God this union no longer exists.

Edit: Note that you’re flirting with the role of moral relativist here. The Founders were products of their environments–yeah, so? We all are. Fred West was. They were, many of them, geniuses. They could have figured it all out. And some did.[/quote]

I agree with you. Don’t get me wrong.

Thing is, and this is necessarily directed at you, folks will use the “relative context” angle on abortion too.

Slavery was wrong on all counts then. It’s wrong today.

Abortion was wrong on all counts when Roe v Wade came down. It’s wrong today. [/quote]

I agree with you almost completely, Push. However, I’m not sure that, in the future, people will look back and marvel that it was legal. I’m afraid people might look back and marvel that there were those who wanted to stop it.[/quote]

need a like button :slight_smile:

78

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
I know one thing, if I see one ding-dong pro legal abortion advocate on here deploring legalizing slavery I’m going to laugh him right out of his saddle.

Nothing can be more comically hypocritical than one ranting and raving about legalized slavery in America’s past and supporting legalized abortion in the present.[/quote]

Planning your Sophistry in advance this time, eh? Another suggestion from the last time this issue came up: familiarize yourself with primary sources this time.[/quote]

Go to hell, Bert.

;-)[/quote]

I’m already in PWI.

79

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
“From a persuasion that equal liberty was originally the Portion, It is still the Birthright of all men, & influenced by the strong ties of Humanity & the Principles of their Institution, your Memorialists conceive themselves bound to use all justifiable endeavours to loosen the bounds of Slavery and promote a general Enjoyment of the blessings of Freedom. Under these Impressions they earnestly entreat your serious attention to the Subject of Slavery, that you will be pleased to countenance the Restoration of liberty to those unhappy Men, who alone, in this land of Freedom, are degraded into perpetual Bondage, and who, amidst the general Joy of surrounding Freemen, are groaning in Servile Subjection, that you will devise means for removing this Inconsistency from the Character of the American People, that you will promote mercy and Justice towards this distressed Race, & that you will Step to the very verge of the Powers vested in you for discouraging every Species of Traffick in the Persons of our fellow men.”

They could write it, they could read it, they could understand it. But if you say that it’s a damn good that we corrected their error in not living by it, you’re a Monday morning, hindsight quarterback? No. You’re just saying something that’s correct.[/quote]

You completely missed my point. Again, I agree with you.

My point is EVERY single point you make can be made about abortion today.

SOME folks – some – will look back on legalized abortion and say “Deep down inside I knew it was wrong but I did not support it’s abolition to the extent that I should have.”

Savvy?[/quote]

Yes, because the earth isn’t currently having difficulties supporting a growing population. Luckily, there will always be plenty of resources to go around equably, just like there is today.

80

[quote]florelius wrote:
Here is the marxist perspective

Excellent post 2 competing labor forces , you could even make the jump that slavery suppressed wages for the northern labor force . Competition in labor between the Irish and the Black , poor white vs black . Call it the Emancipation of Labor