[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
The MAIN reason people argue on PWI is because people don’t actually READ what is written. You inferred the above, it was not written.
It is not “rather implicit”
[/quote]
You haven’t argued anything. Make your position clear or it leaves one with little choice but to infer it. The short responses you posted made it fairly clear that you disagreed with the notion that the Civil War was not fought as a war to end slavery. Is that not the case?
[quote]NickViar wrote:
I think Lincoln’s war on the Confederate States ended what was created by the founding fathers.[/quote]
And thank God for that.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I’d say it end one of the founding fathers few mistakes.[/quote]
Do you believe the founding fathers merely forgot to ban secession in the Constitution?[/quote]
I was talking about slavery. [/quote]
That was legally abolished on December 6, 1865, by the Thirteenth Amendment. The Civil War began in 1861.[/quote]
Are you contending the civil war had nothing to do with slavery?[/quote]
He’s contending that contrary to popular belief, it was not “the war to free the slaves.” Just a consequence of it.[/quote]
Lol, okay.[/quote]
Do you believe otherwise? [/quote]
Ah, ya.[/quote]
Really? So the Civil War was fought primarily because the North wanted to liberate southern slaves and the South wanted to maintain the institution of slavery? What makes you believe this?[/quote]
Did I use the word primarily?
Did I say it was THE reason for the war?
Did I say it was the MAIN reason for the war?[/quote]
Me: He’s contending that contrary to popular belief, it was not “the war to free the slaves.” Just a consequence of it.
You: Lol, okay.
Me: Do you believe otherwise?
You: Ah, ya.
It’s rather implicit that you believe it was. Either that or you’re having a difficult time elucidating your position.[/quote]
Lol, whatever.[/quote]
Yes, another post that could have been taken from a transcript of a teenage girl’s text messages. Make an argument if you believe that I’m incorrect.
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Where did your hard on for the law go? The Confederate states were engaged in an unlawful insurrection against the legitimate government of the United States. Lincoln had every right to make war upon them.
Show me an instance in history in which it does not. As the Athenians told the Melians during the Melian dialogue, “the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.” Force is the ultima ratio in politics.[/quote]
The Confederate States had declared their independence from the United States, which they had a Constitutional right to do. The United States refused to end its occupation of the newly formed country, which then defended itself. By remaining in the Confederate States, the United States was the aggressor. All it(this is what the United States became as a result of Lincoln’s war-a singular “it”) had to do was end its occupation, and the Confederate States would have left it alone.
The fact that one can do something does not make it right. I’m not arguing that Hitler didn’t kill Jews, I’m arguing that it was not right.
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I’d say it end one of the founding fathers few mistakes.[/quote]
Do you believe the founding fathers merely forgot to ban secession in the Constitution?[/quote]
I was talking about slavery. [/quote]
That was legally abolished on December 6, 1865, by the Thirteenth Amendment. The Civil War began in 1861.[/quote]
Are you contending the civil war had nothing to do with slavery?[/quote]
He’s contending that contrary to popular belief, it was not “the war to free the slaves.” Just a consequence of it.[/quote]
Lol, okay.[/quote]
Do you believe otherwise? [/quote]
Ah, ya.[/quote]
Really? So the Civil War was fought primarily because the North wanted to liberate southern slaves and the South wanted to maintain the institution of slavery? What makes you believe this?[/quote]
Did I use the word primarily?
Did I say it was THE reason for the war?
Did I say it was the MAIN reason for the war?[/quote]
Me: He’s contending that contrary to popular belief, it was not “the war to free the slaves.” Just a consequence of it.
You: Lol, okay.
Me: Do you believe otherwise?
You: Ah, ya.
It’s rather implicit that you believe it was. Either that or you’re having a difficult time elucidating your position.[/quote]
Lol, whatever.[/quote]
Yes, another post that could have been taken from a transcript of a teenage girl’s text messages. Make an argument if you believe that I’m incorrect.[/quote]
Why would I even attempt to have a conversation with someone that just makes shit up?
I won’t make that mistake again. If that wasn’t clear enough, go fuck yourself.
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
I think Lincoln’s war on the Confederate States ended what was created by the founding fathers.[/quote]
And thank God for that.[/quote]
There were plenty at the convention that wanted to abolish slavery, but the slave states wouldn’t have joined the union if it happened.
Pretty sure they set up a “revisit” of sorts for 10 years later… something like that.
Pretty sure the only mistake the founders made in the regard was conceding abolition for unfettered slavery. Some sort of better brokered deal should have been put in place. A phase out if you will, over time. I don’t know, just something more creative than: the union is the most important thing, let them own these people we know (and clearly state) should be free.
One thing about Jefferson that makes me want to kick him in the teeth. Dickhead knew deep down, those men and women should have been free.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
I think Lincoln’s war on the Confederate States ended what was created by the founding fathers.[/quote]
And thank God for that.[/quote]
There were plenty at the convention that wanted to abolish slavery, but the slave states wouldn’t have joined the union if it happened.
Pretty sure they set up a “revisit” of sorts for 10 years later… something like that.
Pretty sure the only mistake the founders made in the regard was conceding abolition for unfettered slavery. Some sort of better brokered deal should have been put in place. A phase out if you will, over time. I don’t know, just something more creative than: the union is the most important thing, let them own these people we know (and clearly state) should be free.
One thing about Jefferson that makes me want to kick him in the teeth. Dickhead knew deep down, those men and women should have been free.
[/quote]
There is no way independence would of been possible (rather declared), at the time anyway, had slavery been anything other than 100% legal. At least from what I’ve read.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
There were plenty at the convention that wanted to abolish slavery, but the slave states wouldn’t have joined the union if it happened.
Pretty sure they set up a “revisit” of sorts for 10 years later… something like that.
Pretty sure the only mistake the founders made in the regard was conceding abolition for unfettered slavery. Some sort of better brokered deal should have been put in place. A phase out if you will, over time. I don’t know, just something more creative than: the union is the most important thing, let them own these people we know (and clearly state) should be free.
One thing about Jefferson that makes me want to kick him in the teeth. Dickhead knew deep down, those men and women should have been free.
[/quote]
Slaves could have been bought and freed by the Union, if that was what it wanted. The war wouldn’t have happened if the slave states had not left the United States.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I’d say it end one of the founding fathers few mistakes.[/quote]
Do you believe the founding fathers merely forgot to ban secession in the Constitution?[/quote]
I was talking about slavery. [/quote]
That was legally abolished on December 6, 1865, by the Thirteenth Amendment. The Civil War began in 1861.[/quote]
Are you contending the civil war had nothing to do with slavery?[/quote]
He’s contending that contrary to popular belief, it was not “the war to free the slaves.” Just a consequence of it.[/quote]
Lol, okay.[/quote]
Do you believe otherwise? [/quote]
Ah, ya.[/quote]
Really? So the Civil War was fought primarily because the North wanted to liberate southern slaves and the South wanted to maintain the institution of slavery? What makes you believe this?[/quote]
Did I use the word primarily?
Did I say it was THE reason for the war?
Did I say it was the MAIN reason for the war?[/quote]
Me: He’s contending that contrary to popular belief, it was not “the war to free the slaves.” Just a consequence of it.
You: Lol, okay.
Me: Do you believe otherwise?
You: Ah, ya.
It’s rather implicit that you believe it was. Either that or you’re having a difficult time elucidating your position.[/quote]
Lol, whatever.[/quote]
Yes, another post that could have been taken from a transcript of a teenage girl’s text messages. Make an argument if you believe that I’m incorrect.[/quote]
Why would I even attempt to have a conversation with someone that just makes shit up?
I won’t make that mistake again. If that wasn’t clear enough, go fuck yourself. [/quote]
What have I made up, exactly?
You have yet to make an argument, much less a cogent one.
[quote]NickViar wrote:
Slaves could have been bought and freed by the Union, if that was what it wanted. [/quote]
Sort of defeats the purpose, but even so, they likely wouldn’t have been able to afford it. Things like the cotton gin made slavery even more of an economic bullwhip from owner perspective.
And they never would have joined if abolishment passed.
It was only a matter of time.
If not for Abe…we would not be waging an almost 150 year war against Vampires…
Mufasa
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
One thing about Jefferson that makes me want to kick him in the teeth. Dickhead knew deep down, those men and women should have been free.
[/quote]
Yes indeed.
He’s by far my favorite Founder, but he got that shit wrong. And he really was a dickhead about it.
And yeah, he knew it. “Wolf by the ears.”
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Where did your hard on for the law go? The Confederate states were engaged in an unlawful insurrection against the legitimate government of the United States. Lincoln had every right to make war upon them.
Show me an instance in history in which it does not. As the Athenians told the Melians during the Melian dialogue, “the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.” Force is the ultima ratio in politics.[/quote]
The Confederate States had declared their independence from the United States, which they had a Constitutional right to do. The United States refused to end its occupation of the newly formed country, which then defended itself. By remaining in the Confederate States, the United States was the aggressor. All it(this is what the United States became as a result of Lincoln’s war-a singular “it”) had to do was end its occupation, and the Confederate States would have left it alone.
The fact that one can do something does not make it right. I’m not arguing that Hitler didn’t kill Jews, I’m arguing that it was not right.[/quote]
Do you believe that American history would have had a better outcome had the Confederacy been allowed to establish itself as a sovereign state?
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Really? So the Civil War was fought primarily because the North wanted to liberate southern slaves and the South wanted to maintain the institution of slavery? What makes you believe this?[/quote]
The secession occurred because of issues caused primarily by slavery.
This is undeniable. The vast majority of the Southern claims of state rights rose largely from perceived (both real and imaginary) attacks towards slavery.
And even the issues that weren’t directly from slavery, such as the unequal development of industry and the imbalance of trade and the negative influence of tariffs on the South as compared to the North, came largely because of the fact that the Southern economy depended almost entirely on slavery.
As such, any claim that the secession of the South, and the resulting war from it, had nothing to do with slavery, or even to claim that slavery wasn’t a major part of it, is disingenuous.
Said claims largely come from the fact that the North initially fought because they thought the South were assholes for seceding. Which is true; the war itself didn’t begin in an attempt to end slavery or to repudiate the South for having slavery.
But, again, to claim that the secession, and the war itself, had nothing to do with slavery is just plain bullshit.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Pretty sure the only mistake the founders made in the regard was conceding abolition for unfettered slavery. Some sort of better brokered deal should have been put in place. A phase out if you will, over time. I don’t know, just something more creative than: the union is the most important thing, let them own these people we know (and clearly state) should be free.
One thing about Jefferson that makes me want to kick him in the teeth. Dickhead knew deep down, those men and women should have been free.
[/quote]
My understanding is that Jefferson and his pals (I have no idea what the Federalists thought) thought that slavery would just disappear on its own as the economic scene in the South changed.
And it probably would have- if it weren’t for the cotton gin.
(Though, to be fair, Jefferson was idealistic beyond the extreme.)
So, either hurray for the development of U.S. industry (and honestly Britain and a lot of other countries as well) through the cotton gin and the clothing industry!
And the resultant fact that the U.S. Civil War was more or less guaranteed since slavery picked up again around the 1820s.
Or
FUCK YOU COTTON GIN.
And the resultant fact that the IR would have been much smaller in scale, or much delayed in its ascendance.
On-topic-
I think we’ll never know what Lincoln’s true legacy would have been. The man obviously had different ideas than his colleagues in the Republican party about how reconstruction would go. And it’s no guarantee that he would have kept them all in line.
Yet, Lincoln was a bloody masterful politician and I honestly have no doubt that he would have gotten what he wanted. The man pushed through the 14th Amendment for crying out loud.
Really, I think it would be fair to say that Booth literally changed history for the worse when he assassinated Lincoln. He may be one of the most important figures of the 19th cen. U.S. (if not world) history.
Here is the marxist perspective
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
Slaves could have been bought and freed by the Union, if that was what it wanted. [/quote]
Sort of defeats the purpose, but even so, they likely wouldn’t have been able to afford it. Things like the cotton gin made slavery even more of an economic bullwhip from owner perspective. [/quote]
-Sort of defeats what purpose? I imagine the Union could afford it-it could afford to allow somewhere around 360,000(or more) of its people to die, and The Economic Costs of the Civil War - Foundation for Economic Education .
[quote]It was only a matter of time.
[/quote]
-Maybe, but why was that any of the other states’ concern? Secession was legal.
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Do you believe that American history would have had a better outcome had the Confederacy been allowed to establish itself as a sovereign state?
[/quote]
Yes. I also think American history would have had a better outcome without FDR and Woodrow Wilson, without the Patriot Act, etc.
[quote]magick wrote:
My understanding is that Jefferson and his pals (I have no idea what the Federalists thought) thought that slavery would just disappear on its own as the economic scene in the South changed.
[/quote]
Your post is my understanding too. However, it was a big gamble on the part of the abolitionist, and they ended up losing, and it was a big pot to lose.