The Killing Joke

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
701

With respect to your groupthink comment Gkhan, I know when I was getting into trouble, you become acclimatized to what normal people consider crime, and you think nothing of it after a certain time. As things escalate and time goes by, your (my) perception had been adjusted so as to not be thinking “Oh shit I’m breaking the law”. The environment that cultivates this is one reason, IMO, for higher rates of recidivism in certain communities.

People break the law with their similars, go to jail with their similars, are on parole with their similars, and are (generally) released to be around the same people as they were before. And the cycle continues…

702

Is it not always wrong to do to others what you would not want done to yourself? Is the fact that one is doing X to another instead of himself not an admission that it’s wrong?

703

[quote]NickViar wrote:
Is it not always wrong to do to others what you would not want done to yourself? Is the fact that one is doing X to another instead of himself not an admission that it’s wrong? [/quote]

I would think that in some brainwashed Jihadi’s mind that Allah says so = good.

704

I would agree with you both. The video Isis released yesterday, showing a young kid executing 2 Russians, as barbaric as it comes, but probably had that boy been at home with his family in his own country instead in an environment where such action is condoned, he wouldn’t have behaved that way. The adults in his current situation told him to kill with no repercussions and he did so. Yet Isis released the video knowing full well it would shock the world, indicating they probably had an inkling this action was universally unacceptable.

706

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

The murder of entire races is only acceptable when commanded by God.

[/quote]

Can you name one of these so called races that God commanded to be killed (other than the Great Flood in which there was only one race around)?

I don’t think you can.

In fact, I suspect you’re not sure what a race even is.

Help me out here.
[/quote]

My assumption is they are talking about the Canaanite clans who were living in the land of Israel.

The Cannanites were the Nazis of their day.

The Cannanites were exceptionally foul people, documented in multiple sources inside and outside the Bible, to be practitioners of child prostitution, child (and adult) sacrifice, ritual incest, boiling children and animals in their mother’s milk, thieves, and just generally bad people.

And it wasn’t some sudden judgment of the Cannanites. God had given them about 400 years to repent of their ways, looking back to Abraham. prior to Israelâ??s bondage in Egypt, God tells Abraham,

â??Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years. . . . And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites [one of the Canaanite clans] is not yet completeâ?? (Gen. 15. 13, 16).

There are multiple examples of God giving the various Canaanite clans chances to repent, and rejection, so it’s not like this came out of the blue.

And finally, the reason to get rid of them for the Jews (other than the obvious land dispute) was moral hazard. The Canaanites are to be destroyed â??that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the Lord your Godâ?? (Deut. 20.18).

So, yes, there are “just” wars, and one can review the natural law discussed above to see which ones.

WWII comes to mind as one.

The sadly incomplete destruction of Canaanite civilization is another.

707

The Hebrews were in an existential fight for survival. They couldn’t go back to Egypt. They would’ve been massacred. They wandered the Sinai(for 40 years apparently) and the next generation sent spies ahead into Canaan to scout the land. No one(particularly not the Canaanites) would let a foreign army/populace just waltz through their land. Besides, what the bible doesn’t reveal is that the Canaanite city states were subject vassal states of Egypt. The Canaanite “Kings” that the Hebrews killed were actually more akin to “Governors” or what the Persians called “Satraps”. They ruled on behalf of Kemet and were utterly subservient to Pharaoh. They provided the Egyptians with slaves from their own populace and raised troops for Kemet’s army.

708

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

The murder of entire races is only acceptable when commanded by God.

[/quote]

Can you name one of these so called races that God commanded to be killed (other than the Great Flood in which there was only one race around)?

I don’t think you can.

In fact, I suspect you’re not sure what a race even is.

Help me out here.
[/quote]

Yes, the Canaanites were not a “race” but rather a civilisation with a shared culture, pottery and metallurgy techniques, religion etc. They generally went by the name of the city state they were from. For example, the Jebusites who lived in Jerusalem. It is thought by some that Solomon’s temple was built on an old Canaanite site - ie, the “high places” around Jerusalem where the Canaanites built their temples can only be two or three places. When the crusaders captured Jerusalem they weren’t really interested in the temple and it wasn’t until the late 19th/early 20th century that excavations began but they’ve all but come to a standstill because of the Palestinians who claim the Jews are secretly undermining the al Aqsa mosque and also due to Jewish beliefs that the temple should not be entered.

709

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

So, yes, there are “just” wars, and one can review the natural law discussed above to see which ones.

[/quote]

The question – at least, my question – has nothing to do with whether or not any particular war was just. The question has to do with whether or not god decides what is just, and whether or not he decides what is natural law, and whether or not he does this in accordance with any stricture.

The believer’s answers – at least in the mainstream, Judeo-Christian West – are generally yes, yes, and no, respectively. But these answers dirty the neat, reductive “we have objective morality and you don’t” line that is so often paraded around.

Edited.

710

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
The question – at least, my question – has nothing to do with whether or not any particular war was just. The question has to do with whether or not god decides what is just, and whether or not he decides what is natural law, and whether or not he does this in accordance with any stricture.

[/quote]

Stricture? Faithful believe that God is “good” - that righteousness is essential characteristic of His being. If God does it that means it’s good. The Nixon doctrine.

[quote]

The believer’s answers – at least in the mainstream, Judeo-Christian West – are generally yes, yes, and no, respectively. But these answers dirty the neat, reductive “we have objective morality and you don’t” line that is so often paraded around.

Edited.[/quote]

Not sure how anything is “dirt[ied]”. You lack faith in any kind of transcendental metaphysical system. That worldview entails certain logical conclusions; namely, existential nihilism. What I’ve come to learn about certain aspects of liberalism, is that they are a consequence of a kind of denial about the dark nature of man and existence and the nihilist is unequipped to deal with such realities. I’m always hearing people going on about God killing people. My answer is, so what? Look at all the evil we see going on today in parts of the world. God wiped out evil people. That is what believers believe. They don’t need any moralising and judgement from the perspective of some postmodernist radical egalitarian observer.

711

I don’t think the existential nihilism is a strong argument.
“I don’t know” is an answer too. I think most people would fall in to this camp.

712

Shit is goin down in Belgium right now. 3 killed in anti-terror raid.

715

http://nypost.com/2015/01/13/dutch-mayo … y-f-k-off/

Dutch Mayor is telling muslim immigrants “You don?t like democracy FUCK OFF”.
What a rude arsehole.

The Moroccan-born mayor of the Dutch city of Rotterdam has some tough love for his fellow Muslim immigrants who don?t like the freedoms and tolerance of their adopted countries.

?It is incomprehensible that you can turn against freedom,? Mayor Ahmed Aboutaleb told Dutch news program ?Newshour.?

?But if you don?t like freedom, for heaven?s sake pack your bags and leave. If you do not like it here because some humorists you don?t like are making a newspaper, may I then say you can ​f? off!?

Aboutaleb, 53, the s​​on of a Moroccan imam who arrived in the Netherlands at age 15, spoke out in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo attack in Paris last week, The Daily Mail reported.

The former journalist, who was appointed mayor of the city of 610,000 in 2008, is known for his straight-shooting stance on ​​integration.

?This is stupid, this is so incomprehensible. Vanish from the Netherlands if you cannot find your place here. All those well-meaning Muslims here will now be stared at,? Aboutaleb said.

And he won the enthusiastic backing of London Mayor Boris Johnson by blasting Muslims who move to the West but refuse to accept its way of life and resort to violence to vent their rage.

?That is the voice of the Enlightenment, of Voltaire,? Johnson wrote in The Telegraph.

?If we are going to win the struggle for the minds of these young people, then that is the kind of voice we need to hear ? and it needs above all to be a Muslim voice,? said Johnson, calling his Dutch counterpart ?my hero.?

716

It would be nice if more american politicians would have that same opinion.

717

Sorry, messed up the link.

Anyway I hope the King of the Netherlands fire this guy. What kind of politician talks like this about people?

718

[quote]Aggv wrote:
It would be nice if more american politicians would have that same opinion. [/quote]

Kind of ironic considering that the US isn’t connected to Islamic shitholes by lands, while Netherlands is.

719

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
The question – at least, my question – has nothing to do with whether or not any particular war was just. The question has to do with whether or not god decides what is just, and whether or not he decides what is natural law, and whether or not he does this in accordance with any stricture.

[/quote]

Stricture? Faithful believe that God is “good” - that righteousness is essential characteristic of His being. If God does it that means it’s good. The Nixon doctrine.[/quote]

Yes, this being the point.

[quote]

[quote]

The believer’s answers – at least in the mainstream, Judeo-Christian West – are generally yes, yes, and no, respectively. But these answers dirty the neat, reductive “we have objective morality and you don’t” line that is so often paraded around.

Edited.[/quote]

Not sure how anything is “dirt[ied]”.[/quote]

I’ve explained it two or three times over the last two pages. Often in a post directly aimed at someone – a post invariably ignored. With Push, for example.

[quote]
You lack faith in any kind of transcendental metaphysical system.[/quote]

Not really. But I do lack certainty, and everything approaching it. Without which deficiency I would be greatly diminished.

You can go back and figure out what I’m saying. None of the above follows – at all – from my words. I’m not complaining about god’s allegedly having killed people.

720

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
The question – at least, my question – has nothing to do with whether or not any particular war was just. The question has to do with whether or not god decides what is just, and whether or not he decides what is natural law, and whether or not he does this in accordance with any stricture.

[/quote]

Stricture? Faithful believe that God is “good” - that righteousness is essential characteristic of His being. If God does it that means it’s good. The Nixon doctrine.[/quote]

Yes, this being the point.

[quote]

[quote]

The believer’s answers – at least in the mainstream, Judeo-Christian West – are generally yes, yes, and no, respectively. But these answers dirty the neat, reductive “we have objective morality and you don’t” line that is so often paraded around.

Edited.[/quote]

Not sure how anything is “dirt[ied]”.[/quote]

I’ve explained it two or three times over the last two pages. Often in a post directly aimed at someone – a post invariably ignored. With Push, for example.

[quote]
You lack faith in any kind of transcendental metaphysical system.[/quote]

Not really. But I do lack certainty, and everything approaching it. Without which deficiency I would be greatly diminished.

You can go back and figure out what I’m saying. None of the above follows – at all – from my words. I’m not complaining about god’s allegedly having killed people.[/quote]

I think he agrees the answers are yes, yes, no.