The Killing Joke

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
You can just as easily have people that want murder and write (or don’t write) their secular laws to reflect that. Secularity doesn’t lead to any specific laws. You haven’t added anything to the observation of what already is and isn’t.
[/quote]

How can you just as easily have people who want murder not written in their laws? It goes against the chemical reactions in our brains that help survival. Its not true that you can “just as easily” have something when our natural laws tend to go away from it. [/quote]

The fact that there are countless societies that have and continue to do exactly that would seem to damper your claim.[/quote]

Example?[/quote]

Abortion?
[/quote]

My original point was anti-murder laws exist for the safety of the individual whos interest is rooted in their natural desire to survive, not some supernatural moral code. Abortion does not threaten your existence so it can be an exception to the anti-murder laws in a secular society.[/quote]

Fine.

But how would you organize who your laws apply to and who they don’t? In this situation I’m obviously protected, phew, but other people aren’t.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
You can just as easily have people that want murder and write (or don’t write) their secular laws to reflect that. Secularity doesn’t lead to any specific laws. You haven’t added anything to the observation of what already is and isn’t.
[/quote]

How can you just as easily have people who want murder not written in their laws? It goes against the chemical reactions in our brains that help survival. Its not true that you can “just as easily” have something when our natural laws tend to go away from it. [/quote]

The fact that there are countless societies that have and continue to do exactly that would seem to damper your claim.[/quote]

Example?[/quote]

Most of the Middle East.

Lots of old dictatorships.

Nazi Germany.

Soviet Communist Russia.

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

So human progress (including enlightened thinking) and high living standards probably have more to do with Christians easing up on the killing than actually gaining dominance. [/quote]

I think you have it backwards. My understanding is that the church was very much okay with the population not being educated, and resisted, because when hey were the source of educated minds, they had the power.

(I mean, ask a Mason why they are excommunicated upon receiving their first degree. At least all the explanations I’ve heard. Mason’s educated the people.)

I think the Church lost it’s total power as education grew, so evil men went to institutions where the power was. You know, back to Government…

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
You can just as easily have people that want murder and write (or don’t write) their secular laws to reflect that. Secularity doesn’t lead to any specific laws. You haven’t added anything to the observation of what already is and isn’t.
[/quote]

How can you just as easily have people who want murder not written in their laws? It goes against the chemical reactions in our brains that help survival. Its not true that you can “just as easily” have something when our natural laws tend to go away from it. [/quote]

The fact that there are countless societies that have and continue to do exactly that would seem to damper your claim.[/quote]

Example?[/quote]

Most of the Middle East.

Lots of old dictatorships.

Nazi Germany.

Soviet Communist Russia.[/quote]

Who makes the laws in these places? And could someone kill them in public without any consequences?

.

.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
You can just as easily have people that want murder and write (or don’t write) their secular laws to reflect that. Secularity doesn’t lead to any specific laws. You haven’t added anything to the observation of what already is and isn’t.
[/quote]

How can you just as easily have people who want murder not written in their laws? It goes against the chemical reactions in our brains that help survival. Its not true that you can “just as easily” have something when our natural laws tend to go away from it. [/quote]

The fact that there are countless societies that have and continue to do exactly that would seem to damper your claim.[/quote]

Example?[/quote]

Abortion?
[/quote]

My original point was anti-murder laws exist for the safety of the individual whos interest is rooted in their natural desire to survive, not some supernatural moral code. Abortion does not threaten your existence so it can be an exception to the anti-murder laws in a secular society.[/quote]

Fine.

But how would you organize who your laws apply to and who they don’t? In this situation I’m obviously protected, phew, but other people aren’t. [/quote]

Doesn’t matter as long as I’m protected, then at least one specific law exists in this theoretical society which proves the point in the first post I was replying to.

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
People offend us, snear at us, insult us, and persecute us all the time, no terrorism results from it.[/quote]

Because that’s how the religion was founded. It was persecuted and if you were persecuted, you were made a martyr. In Islam, dying in battle against the infidel makes you a martyr. That’s why it’s non-comparable, evil pasts or no evil pasts. Christianity=/=Islam.[/quote]

I thought Islam was different because it is based on the uncorrupted word of the one true god as expressed through the Qur’an and every other religion isn’t. [/quote]

That’s true, but I’m talking about how it’s adherents act.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]Brett620 wrote:

I think it’s fair to say that the President’s risk-adverse posture prohibts him from calling evil by it’s true name: Radical Islam. It may go deeper than that also. He’s very thin-skinned and hates confrontation. He prefers to fight from afar (think drones). He’s not the roll-up-your-sleeves type. That is why he despises our shirtless Russian friend. Further, the President firmly believes the U.S. and many of the West are the problem, that they oppose and inflame these poor dissidents who inturn are forced to acts of rebellion. We should share the blame.

How do you see Mr. Obama’s worldview Bismark? [/quote]

I believe that President Obama’s Weltanschauung is that of a hopeful realist. If the idealism expressed in the 2008 Democratic primary and presidential campaign was sincere, it has been tempered by the realities of his office. Given the political climate at the time, it may have been exaggerated. I would say that his view of the world is most closely aligned with that of the English school of international relations, which represents a middle ground between realism and liberalism. Simply put, he would prefer to exert American influence through diplomacy and international political or economic regimes, but has no qualms with the use of force if those tools of foreign policy are exhausted or would be impractical. I believe the open source record affirms this position. I will now address your post.

I don’t believe that he is “risk-adverse” as much as he is a practitioner of cost-benefit analysis. If the potential costs of an action exceed or are not equal to the potential benefits, it would be irrational to take that course of action. What benefits would be gained by calling yesterday’s barbaric attack “Radical Islam”? Remember, the POTUS is his country’s chief diplomat. Public speech acts constitute public diplomacy.

“He prefers to fight from afar (think drones).”

I disagree. While is true that the use of drone strikes increased seven fold under President Obama, conventional and special operations also increased dramatically. The 2009 surge introduced over 30,000 additional troops into the Afghan theater. When Obama assumed office, the Pentagon increased the use of special operations raids (i.e., kill/capture missions) from 675 in 2009 to roughly 2,200 in 2011.

The raid in Abbottabad is about as “roll-up-your-sleeves” as military operations get. It was far from certain the UBL was the resident of the targeted compound. Despite what officials described as an extraordinarily concentrated collection effort leading up to the operation, no U.S. spy agency was ever able to capture a photograph of bin Laden at the compound before the raid or a recording of the voice of the mysterious male figure whose family occupied the structure’s top two floors. President Obama could have ordered a drone strike, sent fixed wing aircraft to bomb the facility, or refrained from acting at all. Instead, he sent a special operations force to conduct a clandestine kill/capture mission a mere 61 miles from the capital of a sovereign state, and authorized them to fight their way out if engaged by Pakistani forces. To that end, close air support and a quick reaction force were authorized to support the assault element. Robert Gates, reflecting on the raid in a 60 minutes interview, stated that “I’ve worked for a lot of these guys and this is one of the most courageous calls - decisions - that I think I’ve ever seen a president make.”

“. . . he despises our shirtless Russian friend.”

What evidence is there that Obama despises Putin?

“Further, the President firmly believes the U.S. and many of the West are the problem, that they oppose and inflame these poor dissidents who inturn are forced to acts of rebellion. We should share the blame.”

What evidence is there that Obama subscribes to such a world view? If he does, it certainly hasn’t affected his authorization of numerous kill/capture missions in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia, and Yemen. The scope of John Brennan’s disposition matrix may very well be revealed to be larger than the aforementioned states in the future.[/quote]

That is a pretty good analysis of the President. I don’t necessarily agree with some of your assertions, but you make some fair points. I think he’s more than a realist. Sure, some of his decisions are pragmatic, but I think it’s more than that. I think that is convenient cover for what I feel is his worldview:

You are correct in his preference for coalitions/diplomacy. I think it’s a strength. But I think he squanders America’s leverage as the lone Superpower. I think he despises it. He prefers a equal playing field, with a body such as the UN as the arbitrar. This is especially true with military might.

The annexation of Crimea is a prime example. I think Putin bullied him. Just like Assad did. Sure, I know nothing what’s really happening behind the scenes, but I want visible, vocal leadership for liberty.

So the President’s reliance on being a part of coalition as opposed to leading lends him to be “risk-averse”. He does not want to name what is a greater threat to the world than communism: Radical Islam. He does not want to inflame the Arabs. Look at his leadership in Gaza!!

My evidence is a combination of his statements and actions.

And you are right on about Abbottabad. But, how much was the President involved in this, other than to say “go”. I think Hillary and Panetta and the network being built years prior deserve the real credit. The President just wanted the feather in the cap.

Instead of being baited by responding to every single poster in this thread who claims I “hate” christianity, I spent some time reading about islam. It seems to me that islam wouldn’t exist without mecca. Two of the five pillars of islam involve worshiping that rock. Today, observant muslims believe that it would be impossible for “infidels” to destroy the “kaaba” which is literally the physical manifestation on earth of their “greatest god”.

Turn mecca into a crater. No mecca, no islam. Problem solved.

Their whole world view would crumble. After fourteen centuries their mantra of, “our god is greater” won’t become, “we USED to think our god was greater”… mecca is simply the glass jaw of islam. We don’t even have to nuke it, conventional warheads would work just fine. Although I think nuking it would lend a nicer touch of “finality” that conventional weapons lack. The mushroom cloud above what was once their holiest of holy sites would be downright picturesque…

Now THAT would certainly get their attention more than a fucking cartoon.

Of course we would give them every opportunity to stand down first. But if those fuckers decided to keep blowing shit up, then they can reap what they have sown.

[quote]pat wrote:
Your history lacks, first of all. Second, what the hell does what Christians did in the middle ages have shit to do with right now?[/quote]

Middle-age history is not my forte. I would be happy if you took the time to educate me on my shortcomings.

And you misunderstood the point. I’m saying the religion doesn’t matter at all. It’s more about threatened your culture appears to be at that point in time.

Many Muslim terrorists turned to terrorism and waging war on the West because they felt that the West is a serious threat to their lands and way of life. I believe people are entirely right when they say we’re at war with Islam. But not necessarily because of violence being fundamental to Islam or anything, but rather because Islam and its culture is radically different from any culture that the West currently espouses or can tolerate.

Essentially, I disagree with the assertions that religion is responsible. Most of the time, geopolitical issues and the pure concept of power explains things much better. People will frequently use religion to achieve power, but claiming religion is responsible is just making a scapegoat out of it and avoiding the real issue at hand- That if you got rid of religion people will just use something else to gain power with.

You can’t get rid of two of the many fundamental realities of being human- Our desire for wealth and our desire to belong.

[quote]Brett620 wrote:
The annexation of Crimea is a prime example. I think Putin bullied him.
[/quote]

It just doesn’t work like this. Putin knows that as long as there isn’t a madman in Washington, there is a certain amount of localized misbehavior with which he can get away. He knows that nobody is going to risk total war if he, for example, invades South Ossetia. Note that when that happened, the occupant of the White House was one George W. Bush. Did you know that now, closing in on a decade later, the Russian military continues to occupy an enormous chunk of what everybody else still considers Georgian territory? Most Americans don’t know that. Think about it: this was one of the first times a world power invaded a neighboring country since World War II, and it is still going on today.

Why? Because war between Russia and the West is essentially off the table. Nobody is blocking out the sun over a small-scale border scuffle/military occupation in Eastern Europe. There is very little that can be done. (Here is where somebody pivots to Obama and brings up missile defense in Poland [which was about Iran and would have done nothing vis-a-vis Russian deterrence], and here, also, is where I ask that somebody if he has read, to take one of many examples, Gates’ book – which is happy to criticize Obama whenever and wherever it sees fit – on that particular subject.) Hate these realities if you want, but do yourself the favor of thinking hard about them. There were millions of platitudes tossed around the Beltway during the Ukrainian crisis – always gooey, always undefined, always having something vague to do with “weakness” and “toughness.” It is not coincidental that these platitudes almost never became actual criticisms. Their purpose was simply political (see my previous post about Americans being, at heart, bickering old ladies full only of bias and doublethink).

The best response is to tighten sanctions and wait. That’s what happened. The most recent trade sanctions signed by Obama are less than 3 weeks old. The price of oil drops, we alleviate nothing, and Putin faces a series of unenviable choices: that’s what we want. It isn’t perfect, but then neither is the real world.

Edited.

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
Mr. Obama just referred to this as workplace violence.

I will bet a great swath in Paris support this. Paris has turned into a multiculturalism shithole.

Australia, Canda, France… “Muslims Acting Badly”, coming to a theater near you. [/quote]
Well, Europeans are racist as hell. So, I expect the citizens to act out and burn down a few mosques over this. [/quote]

Good. Give them a taste of their own medicine. The “moderate” muslims are just as guilty as the crazy ones. They KNOW who the crazy ones are. But they turn a blind eye to the craziness. Next thing you know, people are getting killed.

We need to have a ZERO TOLERANCE policy towards radical RELIGION (christians blowing up abortion clinics are JUST as fucked up as muslims blowing shit up).

RELIGION is not a reason to KILL people. We need to move towards a more secular society and place significant restrictions on religion. [/quote]

I’ve been thinking this way recently but more specifically toward Islam (surprise). Since more than three quarters of the world is not Muslim we should all demand that parts of the Koran be changed, outlawed and of course no longer taught.

I really think the only way to stop terrorism though is if we had a real asshole of a POTUS who would politely explain to the Islam world that if there is another organized terrorist attack anywhere in the world X city would disappear from the map. The city could rotate. One month we could announce the nukes are aimed at Tehran, the next month it could be Kabul. A nice little monthly announcement like “People of Islam, this month the citizens of Istanbul are counting on you to put an end to terrorism”. Make all of Islam our unwilling allies in the fight against terror.

Sigh… one can fantasize, right?[/quote] that idea seemed to work quite well in japan…

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]hmm87 wrote:

You’re just arguing in circles. [/quote]

No, you’re just ignoring any point I make.

lol, no. You’re attacking people that lived hundreds of years ago in order to call any Christian today that condemns the actions of Muslims as a hypocrite. You admit so yourself in this very thread.

The rub is that what Christians did or didn’t do 800 or so years ago isn’t fucking relevant to what radical Muslims are doing today. You refuse to see this, and at this point I’m convinced it is because you don’t like Christians. [/quote]

You’re still missing the point. you seem too narrow minded to get it. We’re both wasting our time.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Instead of being baited by responding to every single poster in this thread who claims I “hate” christianity, I spent some time reading about islam. It seems to me that islam wouldn’t exist without mecca. Two of the five pillars of islam involve worshiping that rock. Today, observant muslims believe that it would be impossible for “infidels” to destroy the “kaaba” which is literally the physical manifestation on earth of their “greatest god”.

Turn mecca into a crater. No mecca, no islam. Problem solved.

Their whole world view would crumble. After fourteen centuries their mantra of, “our god is greater” won’t become, “we USED to think our god was greater”… mecca is simply the glass jaw of islam. We don’t even have to nuke it, conventional warheads would work just fine. Although I think nuking it would lend a nicer touch of “finality” that conventional weapons lack. The mushroom cloud above what was once their holiest of holy sites would be downright picturesque…

Now THAT would certainly get their attention more than a fucking cartoon.

Of course we would give them every opportunity to stand down first. But if those fuckers decided to keep blowing shit up, then they can reap what they have sown.[/quote]

If we tried this, every Muslim in the world would radicalize.

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Second, what the hell does what Christians did in the middle ages have shit to do with right now?[/quote]

There is like 4 posters hung up on this and they can’t seem to explain how it is at all relevant.

I know what AC does it… [/quote]

It serves the purpose of allowing them to think that all religions and religious people are ultimately evil, therefore confirming their biases and allowing them to put their fingers in their ears and stop their feet while screaming “HYPOCRIT, Christians Suck”. Pretty much the only purpose.
[/quote]

I never once said religion was evil. I said the texts can be manipulated for the purpose of evil and this is true for all religions. I said this more than once.