The Iranian Situation

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]vroom wrote:
Wow, you mean there is no ability to conduct currency exchanges? That’s news to me.[/quote]

Currency exchange is not the point. Countries all over the world (especially ones that are growing and import a lot of oil) are encouraged to hold U.S. government securities for the simple reason that they are readily convertible to the currency that they buy their oil with. China is a perfect example. The U.S. cannot sell securities (and fund its deficit) if other countries aren’t willing to buy them. Countries like China only do so on a massive scale because they need oil so bad. Holding an assload of euros or other currency would be stupid for such a country because they would have to convert it before they could buy oil. Once they can buy oil in euros, they won’t have the inducement to hold U.S. dollars like they do now. That means that fewer countries around the world will be willing to buy U.S. securities. When that happens, it will be very difficult for our government to pay the bills and finance its debt because foreign nations won’t want to buy our debt.
We think we have so many friends and allies around the world because so many other nations are willing to trade with us and buy up our currency. Wait until the rest of the world can buy and sell their oil in euros and we’ll all get a wide-eyed look at how many friends around the world we really have. I think a lot of people in this country will be shocked when our economy is left to flap in the breeze. There will be a glut of dollars on the market as other countries start to unload them and convert to euros. When that happens, the value of the dollar will fall like a
stone. Like I said, currency exchange is moot in this context.

62

[quote]Magister Ludi wrote:
Vroom,
If this is a hijack, just say so & I’ll drop it. But this is the question that always comes to my mind whenever I contemplate the Iranian situation:

What right do we have to tell any sovereign nation that it’s OK for us to have nuclear weapons but not them?

Any justification I’ve ever heard essentailly boils down to some version of: We’re the good guys and they’re not.

As a rationale, that’s pretty weak. Does anyone really think that we wouldn’t be pissed as hell if the roles were reversed?

In reality, I think that the explanation is simply that it’s not in our national interest to let anyone else have nukes and we are going to exercise our power to protect those interests. Given the stakes, I am OK with being a bully. But I think we need to admit that’s what we’re doing.

[/quote]

The question about morality in denying another souvereign country the right to nuclear arms, is a valid point IMO.

On the other hand, prolifiration is not the way to go. We can’t really tolerate nucleair weapons in the hands of a fundamentalistic Iranian government, North-Korea and others.
Iranian leaders might be concerned about the well-being of their country and it’s citizens, and would be reluctant to deploy any such weapons, but it would only be a matter of time before a really psychotic leader would get his hands on some of these weapons. Think about what Poll Pot would have done, if he had such a weapon.

The solution?
Well, I dunno. Why does the US keep it’s stock of WMD up to cold war level? Why don’t they ditch A LOT of those nukes? It would certainly sent the right message to the world. Arming to the teeth does NOT make the world a safer place.

And it’s not like it would cost them anything on prestige or options. How many nukes do you need to take out every major city in Iran, China or Russia?

Also, the recent trend to introduce tactical nuclear weapons, really gets on most peoples nerves.

The money used on maintaing these out-dated nukes, could be spent more usefull on conventional weapons. But, on the contrary, more money is wasted on star wars and other foolish projects.

63

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
The money used on maintaing these out-dated nukes, could be spent more usefull on conventional weapons. But, on the contrary, more money is wasted on star wars and other foolish projects.[/quote]

Wreckless,

Spending money on a viable missle deffense system is not foolish IMO. As it stands right now, the nuclear game is totally an offensive game as their is zero defense for an ICBM. We can tell when one is inbound and send off a few of our own while we scramble a response to the expected devestation, but that’s it.

Think about how awesome it would be if we could shoot an ICBM out of the air in the defense of our nation. A viable missle defense system would almost force the world to return to more conventional warfare don’t you think?

Don’t you think in the world of nuclear proliferation, we could benefit from a missle defense system? I realize that this type of system wold not defend us from a dirty bomb, however, good old fashioned tough security can do this.

64

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

Everyone should know high school students are much wiser in the ways of the world than 40 year olds.[/quote]

zap is just upset because “turn em to glass” is in one of his post’s. let go of your sister/mother/uncle, long enough to realize that your kind is the problem.

also i don’t always blame America first, chode. i put responsability on those who create the situation. so you can blow me, and lick my big American balls.

who’s next?

i am not a high school student. i am 25, i have a bachelor degree in buisness managment from ucr, and an assoc. in culinary arts from the california culinary institue le cordon blue, pasadena. i currently manage the San diego office of my fathers 700 employee overnight frieght company, one of 8 offices in california alone. I am a citizen of both the United States, And the Republic of Iran. although i was born here, i have been granted dual citizenship, because of my father, and my families LONG LONG military history.

Don’t get me wrong, like i have stated anytime this subject comes up, my loyalty is with my country, the U.S. After traveling parts of the world i have come too see more clearly than ever the beauty of this country. I believe it is our compassion as a people that seperates us from the rest of the world. As a whole we are good people.

Maybe it is because we are still young and we have not had many real problems. with the obvious exception’s being WWI, WWII, and vietnam. that is not to take anything away from those who suffered through other small “conflicts”. Pound for pound, we have not seen shit compared to thousands of years of war and suffering. i hope our compassion for others will endure until the sun fades, or the oceans rise and swallow the world. i fear that the more we involve ourselves in the pains of war the more callous we will become, and we will lose that which makes us so special.

that was wayyyyy to long winded. and wayyyy off topic, sorry. back on topic.

65

Why would the world return to conventional warfare given the existence of missle defense systems?? Whoever is attacking us would just send over a bunch of dummy missles or just more. A few big ones would still get through so its not going to make the world any safer its just the next step in the arms race.

66

[quote]Wreckless wrote:

The solution?
Well, I dunno. Why does the US keep it’s stock of WMD up to cold war level? Why don’t they ditch A LOT of those nukes? It would certainly sent the right message to the world. Arming to the teeth does NOT make the world a safer place.

And it’s not like it would cost them anything on prestige or options. How many nukes do you need to take out every major city in Iran, China or Russia?

[/quote]

You were doing good up to here. Do you think if the U.S. cut down to enough missles to just blow up the world a single time, Iran would no longer want nukes?

67

[quote]Magarhe wrote:

vroom, “Wow, you mean there is no ability to conduct currency exchanges? That’s news to me.” … you’re kidding, right? it is the exchanging of currency that sets the exchange rate that will kill you. Your currency is currently being propped up by other countries that can - and are looking to - pull the plug at any moment. When they do, and your exchange rate plummets, suddenly everything will get more expensive. Everything.
[/quote]

Wow did I miss something. I thought vroom was in Canada. My bad.

The problem with your supposition wrt exchange rates: Unfortunately, USA is the biggest consumer in the world. Say the exchange rates go up, and things get more expensive. Then, USA will buy less. All that money going overseas will sputter. Foreign economies will constrict. What you’re talking about is a global depression, my good man.

That is the most probable result in other countries “pulling the plug.” I have a feeling that this will not happen. It’s in most foreign countries’ best interest to have a healthy USA economy. Especially when they own so much interest in it!

68

[quote]mazilla wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Everyone should know high school students are much wiser in the ways of the world than 40 year olds.

zap is just upset because “turn em to glass” is in one of his post’s. let go of your sister/mother/uncle, long enough to realize that your kind is the problem.

also i don’t always blame America first, chode. i put responsability on those who create the situation. so you can blow me, and lick my big American balls.

who’s next?

i am not a high school student. i am 25, i have a bachelor degree in buisness managment from ucr, and an assoc. in culinary arts from the california culinary institue le cordon blue, pasadena. i currently manage the San diego office of my fathers 700 employee overnight frieght company, one of 8 offices in california alone. I am a citizen of both the United States, And the Republic of Iran. although i was born here, i have been granted dual citizenship, because of my father, and my families LONG LONG military history.

Don’t get me wrong, like i have stated anytime this subject comes up, my loyalty is with my country, the U.S. After traveling parts of the world i have come too see more clearly than ever the beauty of this country. I believe it is our compassion as a people that seperates us from the rest of the world. As a whole we are good people.

Maybe it is because we are still young and we have not had many real problems. with the obvious exception’s being WWI, WWII, and vietnam. that is not to take anything away from those who suffered through other small “conflicts”. Pound for pound, we have not seen shit compared to thousands of years of war and suffering. i hope our compassion for others will endure until the sun fades, or the oceans rise and swallow the world. i fear that the more we involve ourselves in the pains of war the more callous we will become, and we will lose that which makes us so special.

that was wayyyyy to long winded. and wayyyy off topic, sorry. back on topic.
[/quote]

I never said “turn them to glass” or anything of the type.

69

Actually, Zap, vroom and a few others are very considerate in that they do not exhibit name calling antics, are thought provoking and are respectful to those that respect themselves. Act like a gentleman, be treated as a gentleman. Hot headed temper tantrums do not facilitate dialogue.

Am I to understand that I can wake up tomorrow morning to see smoke billowing out of a nuclear facility in Iran? From a foreign warhead? Would this not be worse than Iraq invading Kuwait? Epsecially with the tensions between the Middle East and, well, most everywhere els? The thought is chilling. The next world war? This year? More speculation, please.

70

After the Iraq debacle it is clear that the American military can’t sustain another invasion and occupation. If Iran is gonna get dealt with then there has to be a real coalition. The burden should be shared equally by Europe and America. Not mostly American and then a few troops sent by Bush asskissers.

What I don’t understand is why Iran seems to take priority over North Korea or Osama Bin Laden. Not to mention domestic issues that effect Americans immensely more than some whack job nation across the planet.

71

Its like the big dog marking its territory, America wants to remain the big dog, so its reaching out and marking new boundaries. The other countries are even more messed up than ours so we know they wont do what were doing, and also as soon as Castro is gone , America will absorb Cuba in some way, whether it be by making it the 51st state, or by sending a large contingency of people down there to occupy the country, thus expanding the big dogs territory even more. I don`t think America really wants another confrontation with another country, but then again, this is all part of the Axis of Evil that has previously been theorized.

72

i am all for Cuba, the cigars are damn good, and so are the women. i am tired of going to mexico to get my cuban’s.

73

[quote]kroby wrote:
Magarhe wrote:

vroom, “Wow, you mean there is no ability to conduct currency exchanges? That’s news to me.” … you’re kidding, right? it is the exchanging of currency that sets the exchange rate that will kill you. Your currency is currently being propped up by other countries that can - and are looking to - pull the plug at any moment. When they do, and your exchange rate plummets, suddenly everything will get more expensive. Everything.

Wow did I miss something. I thought vroom was in Canada. My bad.

The problem with your supposition wrt exchange rates: Unfortunately, USA is the biggest consumer in the world. Say the exchange rates go up, and things get more expensive. Then, USA will buy less. All that money going overseas will sputter. Foreign economies will constrict. What you’re talking about is a global depression, my good man.

That is the most probable result in other countries “pulling the plug.” I have a feeling that this will not happen. It’s in most foreign countries’ best interest to have a healthy USA economy. Especially when they own so much interest in it![/quote]

kroby, that is correct, and one of the reasons China is propping up your currency, to maintain their own growth. However that doesn’t make other countries dependant on America. And certainly doesn’t stop it slipping by, say, 20% against you - how would you like everything to suddenly be 20% more expensive in real terms? How many people could cope with that in the US? Maybe you could, but most couldn’t.

It will make American goods more attractive. Your dollar has already plunged vs mine and I have been buying American like no tomorrow. So cheap! So get your manufacturing up to speed, I say.

I am all for EVERY country having a healthy economy. That is the real key to world peace and tolerance - when people have no money, food, water, security etc… they go fanatic and want to blame others / kill / get revenge. When they get rich, prosperous, they get fat and want a new car.

vroom it is supply and demand but the system has many self interests operating as well, especially in trying to control that supply and demand, or set it up for a favourable move.

I am all for a Star Wars program if it can actually work. It doesn’t, it is crap. They can’t even hit a missile that has a transponder in it. That program is going nowhere for now.

I don’t want nukes to proliferate but there may be an upside to Iran having some - counties might treat Iran with more respect, and they might feel less need to prove themselves. I DO NOT THINK THEY WOULD USE IT, that would be utter stupidity.

In Syria, when someone finds oil on their land, they set it up and head off to live in Saudi Arabia. All the profits from that oil goes to them in another country. Guess who cops the blame - the USA. The locals blame the USA for this. It isn’t the USA’s fault, it’s the rich Syrian who took off with the money to live in a more developed country. My point to this is, if Syria instead had that money staying in the country and the place was developing, they would be less unhappy and not looking for someone to blame.

In my opinion, economic development and prosperity is the solution, not military action. Especially if it leaves a country in a big mess. All that does is create a tonne of blame and anger.

74

Why, thank you, Magarhe. That 20% rise in cost of goods: inflation? What’s the next logical step from inflation? Market constriction. The people of the USA would freak out. All of a sudden, people will stop buying, from a risk of running out of money to pay bills. Coincide this with the increased spending by the government, and disaster!

I agree that greed and it’s counterpart - the ability to deny prosperity is the root cause for international strife. Prosperity across the board would alleviate much pain in the world. The problem is that most of the “powers that be” really see this as opposite their interests. War and death make money. Take away the need for want, and you take away their power.

Iran wants respect through power. Respect out of danger is not respect. It’s threatened posturing.