Of course it wasn’t.
Out of curiosity, which part of the Trump/Zelensky phone call do you think is cut and dried proof of Trump’s guilt? That’s what this all goes back to after all, and is more relevant than what the carefully chosen Democrat witness have to say who almost all have an axe to grind with Trump. Sorry but I’m not impressed with them swearing under oath. Telling the truth has been the least of their concerns since Trump got elected.
There were many conversations between Trump or people acting on his behalf and the Ukrainians. The transcript summary you’re referring to represents one such conversation. Unfortunately, we don’t have have transcripts from the other conversations because the Trump administration refuses to comply with congressional subpoenas. What we do have are the testimonies of Bill Taylor, Marie Yovanovitch, Gordon Sondland and others I’m forgetting. You’re implying these people committed perjury. If you’re going to make an accusation like that, you need to back it up with evidence.
Don’t forget these are all people Trump chose for these positions (even Yovanovitch). Sonland donated $1M to Trump’s inaugural fund, and Trump gave him the EU ambassadorship in return. Trump chose Bill Taylor to replace Yovanovitch.
The Trump administration is fighting the release of documents at every turn, and literally no one is willing to say Trump did nothing wrong under oath. It’s also telling how Trump’s defense has changed. How many times did we hear, “no quid pro quo” when this was breaking? Now, the defense is, “abuse of power is not impeachable”. Even Trump’s Republican defenders have moved away from the “he did nothing wrong” defense.
Try to be objective here. Would you be defending Obama if it were him in this situation?
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lolz…
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The transcript I’m referring represents THE conversation. The only one that matters, because that’s what started the whole impeachment shit show. The supposed whistleblower said Trump, IN THAT CALL, demanded investigations into Biden in exchange for military aid. Read the transcript, there’s no such demand. They talk about aid. They talk about investigations. But not once did Trump make the aid contingent upon the investigations. So no quid pro quo, but he did ask Zelensky to move forward with investigations of Crowdstrike, Biden’s and corruption, WHICH IS NOT A CRIME. It’s not even unprecedented, many presidents have asked foreign leaders to look into various issues.
Trump did not appoint Marie Yovanavich, Obama did and she served into Trump’s administration. She was recalled because the Ukrainians had numerous problems with her, Zelensky didn’t like her, and she was bad mouthing Trump to Ukrainian officials. As I said, she had an axe to grind. And she contradicted herself during her testimony.
Gordon Sondland testified that Trump explicitly told him no quid pro quo when asked what he wants from Ukraine.
Bill Taylor testified he basically knew nothing, heard nothing, saw nothing.
Professor Jonathan Turley, another self professed liberal, who also testified during Clintons impeachment hearings, points out how the HOUSE has been committing abuse of power.
This is not proof of guilt. I’d wager any president would fight every step of the way of they were bring impeached.
The defense hasn’t changed. The quid pro quo was at issue during the house investigations, we’re in the Senate trial now where the decision has to be made if the articles presented from the house warrant a crime and/or removal from office. What has changed, multiple times during the impeachment proceedings, is what they were impeaching him for. It started with a quid pro quo, and when they couldn’t prove that it changed to abuse of power.
Well respected LIBERAL lawyer Allen Dershowitz says abuse of power is not a crime.
The GAO decision essentially means nothing, since the congressional deadline to release the funds to Ukraine was the end of September. Trump released them September 12th. With no quid pro quo I might add.
That objective enough for you? It’s not about Trump the man. It’s about a political party that decided to impeach a duly elected president BEFORE he was even sworn in, and has been looking for a reason ever since, whether real or imagined is irrelevant to them. I didn’t like Obama, but if the situation was identical? Yes I would feel the same way. When Obama won, he won. I wasn’t like the libs running around pulling my hair out screaming he’s not my president. I never hoped he would be impeached. I just hoped the country would benefit.
This is coming from someone who voted for Bill Clinton twice, not a Trumpkin like people like to label on here. I voted for Clinton, then supported impeachment, because it was PROVEN that he was guilty. If it was a sham like we’ve been seeing here? I would have opposed it.
I thought you didn’t do what-about-ism? Or is that only when someone points to Obama?
No, it’s not a literal transcript, it’s a WH summary of the call they put together believing it would help their case. The fact that their biased summary is damning for themselves is pretty telling.
Crowdstrike in an US company based in California, founded by, among others, a Russian-born American citizen. It provides cyber security for GOP among others. It has no connection to Ukraine. There have no “servers” there.
So basically Trump was calling on Zelensky to launch a fake investigation into an American company based on a Russian conspiracy theory.
No, members of an organized criminal group complained to Parnas and Guiliani, including Yuri Lutsenko, because they believed her public statements against corruption thwarted their schemes. They made up the “badmouthing” part because they knew that will trigger Trump. Also they lied about her not hanging Trump’s portrait on the embassy grounds.
Yes, after the news became public and quid-pro-quo accusations became public, Trump decided to hold a call in which he decided to explicitly say “no quid-pro-quo”. Pretty convenient? Also, Ukraine aid was released only after the story broke.
This liberal? On Trump’s legal team?
Why didn’t you guys lock her up?
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But…but…what about Obama?
…
So the fact that the Whitehouse put hold on Ukranian military aid 91 minutes post phone call isn’t odd at all… right?
It’s very strange how even when knowing the history of this man (his previous endeavours have been steeped in corruption, the Trump University scandal comes to mind), his supporters will continually give him the benefit of the doubt… almost as if they’re so devoted to him they’ll blindly believe/follow whatever ideology they can that entails clearing the presidents name/getting him off the hook.
The TRUTH is, Donald Trump is NOT a good person… he’s a businessman, and in my opinion pathological liar and textbook narcissist. You can support this man, you can like some of the things he does… but to continually say all the revelations made against him are fake news… come on… In my opinion the man represents a threat to world peace/trade relations and more, he’s deeply unstable, erratic and displays the attitude of an extreme megalomaniac who needs to be right about everything… all the time… even when he’s wrong (in which case he WILL double down), the Orlando hurricane forecast comes to mind here
It is of my opinion, crime or not (which there def HAS been a crime committed here, even the senate trial looks to be a sham with Mitch Mcconell having a large hand in how the trial goes down) that Donald Trump is not fit to be president. The president of the United States should be voted in because he/she represents the moral fibre of the nation, views of the populace. I can guarantee you the REAL Donald Trump (the person he is) doesn’t represent the views or beliefs of the populace at all. Perhaps he was voted in due to the systemic manipulation of a certain demographic he targeted, however he doesn’t represent the American populace
Donald Trump, since these revelations has been acting like the guiltiest man alive. When Clinton was impeached (in which I think he should have been removed from office, not acquitted), he was hush hush, kept running the presidency, doing his job etc… Donald Trump spent a LOT of time tweeting during his impeachment trials, the majority being incoherent rambles about the “do nothing dems” and “lies from the radical left”… considering his stance could be considered as “radically right wing” I think this is humorous but whatever… Trump appears to hit new Twitter record with impeachment tweets | Donald Trump | The Guardian
Imagine how many hours it takes to come up with and put out over one hundred tweets daily. Donald Trump has been in power for what… three years, yet has played golf/visited gold courses 258 times since his induction as president… thats almost 1/3 days he spends playing golf
Furthermore, as more witnesses come forward (John Bolton for one) willing to testify, more revelations of the call, other people who were involved, people who were involved coming forward, the evidence becomes more and more damning.
There IS a very strong case with this one, and had the same mentality about trump existed with Nixon, he would’ve probably gotten away with the Watergate scandal… so I must ask, WHY do people keep supporting him. You should see the attitude towards trump here in Aus (and most of Europe where I visited) we view the entire notion of this man serving as president to be absurd, granted that’s not a good comparison as Nanny State Australia is currently somewhat of the worlds laughing stock for it’s retarded rules/regulations
If he’s acquitted (which he will probably be, to the dismay of the MAJORITY of the American populace) I unfortunately believe voter suppression, manipulative tactics, smear campaigns and conspiracy theories/propaganda will play a HUGE role in the November 2020 election, which may lead to him winning another term… then another term… then another term and another… and another… and another (you see where I’m getting at, democracy will no longer exist)
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What? You’re saying the other conversations between the Trump administration and Ukraine on this issue don’t matter because no one formally complained about them? That’s not how investigations work.
Have you read the call summary? It’s obviously not a word for word transcript. Trump’s dialogue in the summary is not consistent with how the guy actually speaks. The point is, we don’t know what liberties his people took with that summary and therefore don’t really know what was actually said. In any case, that particular interaction is just one puzzle piece.
Not supposed. He’s a real American citizen. Trump actually shared a tweet that named the man, breaking federal whistle-blower protection laws.
It’s clear that neither of us is going to convince the other of anything. I do think there are details you’re conveniently overlooking. @loppar does a good job pointing them out. Regardless, don’t you think we would have a better shot at coming to the same conclusion if all the facts were made public? I don’t think I’m going out on a limb when I say the side trying to cover up the facts generally has something to hide.
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I don’t think anyone is giving Trump the benefit of the doubt. Even his supporters know he’s a cheat. They’re just convinced that Democrats are equally corrupt. So, if you have to chose between two corrupt politician, at least choose YOUR corrupt politician. The Republican message is essentially - Yea, we’re corrupt, but so are the Democrats, at least we don’t take away your guns. The irony being Trump has done more to limit gun rights with his bump stock EO than Obama every did.
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“That’s some really nice aid you have there. It would be a shame if something happened to it. Also, I want you to look into the Biden’s, and announce that you are doing so.”
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Ehhh, I don’t believe the democrats are all corrupt, I actually believe AT THE MOMENT there is far more corruption openly present within the Republican Party (with all the senators openly backing a con-man lol)… Mitch McConnell in general…
However that being said during last election, I didn’t like Hillary Clinton either…
Ukraine has a history of corruption. I don’t find it odd at all that Trump wanted to feel out how the BRAND NEW president of Ukraine was going to be before handing over more money or weapons. I’m pretty sure there’s a lot more to these decisions than a bunch of nobodies on T-nation see. Give me a break man, if he gave them the aid no questions asked and Zelensky turned out to be corrupt, the Dems would be impeaching him over that saying he was part of the scam with Zelensky or something.
I sure hope I’m given the benefit of the doubt if I’m accused of crimes. Or character assassination for that matter.
I find this hilarious. This is not the TRUTH, this is your OPINION. Which your entitled to of course, but unless you’ve met the man, and correct me if you have, then you have NO WAY of knowing this. Public image, no matter what it looks like to you, does not belie what’s in a persons heart and soul. A Public persona is meant for…the Public.
Funny how so many people who actually HAVE met him say what a wonderful person he is. Piers Morgan of all people is friends with Trump, he’s not exactly a conservative ass kisser is he?
Hey, Trump may be the biggest prick to walk the planet, I don’t know. But neither do you.
you just described 95% of all politicians, celebrities, CEO’s, professional athletes… do you hate all of them as well? (Maybe you do, just curious)[quote=“unreal24278, post:573, topic:262431”]
the man represents a threat to world peace/trade relations and more
[/quote]
Oh please.
I agree with this. However you act like Trump ushered in the era of lies, narcissism and ego. Dig a little deeper into how the rest of the US politicians act, what they say, their Public persona and private lives. Trump is just another drop in a very large ocean.
-lowered taxes (yes, they actually affected average Americans like myself)
-lowest unemployment rate in decades, more job openings than people to fill them (apparently he found the magic wand Obama was talking about because manufacturing jobs have been on the rise)
-lowest Black and Hispanic unemployment in history
- over 3 million households off food stamps
-trade deals with Mexico, Canada, Japan, South Korea, China, UK. We’ll see how beneficial these are to the US, but I don’t think that narcissistic prick would accept a deal that was worse than we already had.
-stock market still booming
-economy still booming (yea yea it’s still bleeding over from Obama, right?)
Plus much more, and he’s done this while being attacked non stop from the left and apparently golfing 300 times.
Yea, I can’t think of a single American who agrees with anything on that list.
The lower classes of America are economically better under Trump regardless of what the leftists say, I see it every day, I know these people. That’s what matters to me. Are average Americans better off, and if he wins in 2020 that’s the proof that we are. Because the average person doesn’t give a shit what Trump tweets, or how great he says he is, or what Nancy Pelosi says about him. They care about their paycheck getting bigger. Their taxes getting smaller. Their investments growing ( if they have any). Real stuff that affects their tiny portion of the world. And they’re the ones who can vote him in again.
This is kind of my point, it’s dependant on where you’re looking at it from. I link to articles saying the democrats were the ones hiding things during the investigation, someone links to something saying otherwise.
I’m saying that call was the Genesis of the whole impeachment debacle. I’d at least like there to be some substantial degree of guilt in that call to justify everything that came afterward.
And the whole notion that the transcript is bs because things were left out blah blah blah is weak bullshit. Be honest, If there was undeniable guilt in that transcript then the dems would be touting it as Holy scripture.
True he’s an American citizen. The rest is false. The IG is prohibited from naming a whistleblower. Doesn’t apply to anyone else from what I can tell. And I won’t get into the fact that a whistleblower is supposed to have first hand knowledge of the issue he’s blowing the whistle on. This person did not. So he’s not even really a whistleblower afforded whistleblower protections anyway is he?
Of course not, but I do enjoy debating these issues with my limited knowledge, and I respect and appreciate your opinions.
Absolutely.
It is just a non-starter for me that trump cares about corruption. His businesses have a long track record of ripping people off, and generally being corrupt.
This is a non starter. Congress approved that money. He went in and blocked it. He is expected to have no actions in this.
The problem is the man has lost numerous court cases because of his corrupt business dealings. The man was forced to pay out a huge amount of money due to his fraudulent university (and a fake children’s charity).
Well, on the question of is somebody a good or bad person, it is always subjective. I think a person who rips people off, runs a fake children’s charity, and brags about un-welcomed touching (sexual assault) of women is not a good person. That is just my opinion though. I am open to you convincing me that these are the traits of a good person.
Does not change the actions of trump. Trump has lied more than any other modern president. What others do, does not impact the morality of his actions. I am so tired of this logic. It needs to die.
Why should he get credit for these things? I give you lowering taxes. The problem with that is I believe that he gave away our future for his current approval ratings. We no longer have the ability to use as large of a tax cut in the event of a recession.
I am missing something here. How does him winning in 2020 prove that average Americans are better off?
Have people ever done worse over a presidential term and then voted in the incumbent? The answer is yes, so your logic above is invalid.
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I’m not even disagreeing with this. It’s just that people keep making this about what an asshole Trump is instead of whether he actually committed a crime or not.
My point is that facts are twisted one way or the other to fit a narrative
So if you’re guilty once you’re guilty forever? Listen I know it’s a stretch, and I actually hate defending Trump sometimes, cause I get it. But being objective as possible means he’s innocent until proven otherwise, regardless of how many times in the past he’s done f’d up shit.
Again, I’m not defending his actions as much as just pointing out how people are acting like he’s so much worse than any other politician. Maybe he is, whatever, but let’s stop acting like he’s the anti-Christ. It’s a little over the top.
Why SHOULDN’T he get credit for those things? We’re in the 4th year of his presidency. Are we really going to say it’s still Obama?
Because if Average Joe is happy with the way the country is under Trump they will vote for him in 2020. If all our lives are so horrible these last 3 years then I doubt he’ll win the election. No?
Too late…
Christian Conservatives already gave that title to President Obama.
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My response was in regards to people judging his character. In that context, I should be skeptical of any of his actions. This is different than a court determining if one is guilty or not guilty.
To start, you made the claim. The burden of proof that he should get credit is on you, not me.
I will say however, that most economists will say that the state of the economy should not be credited to the president. There are too many variables at play to give credit.
It could be that a president makes terrible decisions, but the global economy is favorable, so the stocks go up, unemployment goes down, etc.
All presidents will try to take credit for a good economy, and say that they are not responsible when the economy goes south.
People being happy is separate from doing better economically. Trump winning doesn’t necessary mean that most people approve of him. Most people did not approve of him, and he won due to Republican voting district advantages, voter suppression, and an antiquated electoral college system (not because he got the most votes).