The problem is, both the wikipedia link and the video don’t give any real information about the exact timing of the questions to the pressing of the button. I’d like to see this experiment done with questions with fast answers like “Which do you like more, purple or blue”, something where a button will be pressed within 2 seconds of the question’s end. That would be really interesting.
My guess is that the initial decision making that they see going off in the brain is actually “free will” in that it is changeable. For instance, if you are hungry, but dieting, it knows that and will decide not to eat when the body is hungry. BTW, I personally think not eating is the most simple, perfect example of “free will” that there is.
But once again, I still feel like I’m not really getting what he means by “free will”.[/quote]
I still wasn’t able to find the episode but I’ll have more time tomorrow.
The video did suggest that the choice made consciously had been made unconsciously splitseconds earlier. The idea of a “free will” that allows a person to make an independent decision is negated if the brain makes the decision for us without us even able to deliberate that decision.
But as was pointed out, it can’t be established whether this actually happened or not because we don’t have sufficient data to come to that conclusion solely based on the video.
I’ll come back to this tomorrow.[/quote]
So what if you aren’t aware of part of the deliberating process?
[quote]Oleena wrote:
Okay, here’s where I’m confused- why is an unconscious decision making process NOT considered free will given that it’s making decisions that reflect personal belief systems and it can override basic physical impulses, like hunger. I don’t get why the fact that it’s unconscious automatically excludes it from being free will.[/quote]
I can’t find the episode anywhere, sadly enough.
Free will indicates a conscious agent that’s able to decide without bias.
If the brain deliberates unconsciously and chooses, or guides the choice at the very least, based on factors present in the subconscious, it totally negates the concept of free will.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
Okay, here’s where I’m confused- why is an unconscious decision making process NOT considered free will given that it’s making decisions that reflect personal belief systems and it can override basic physical impulses, like hunger. I don’t get why the fact that it’s unconscious automatically excludes it from being free will.[/quote]
I can’t find the episode anywhere, sadly enough.
Free will indicates a conscious agent that’s able to decide without bias.
If the brain deliberates unconsciously and chooses, or guides the choice at the very least, based on factors present in the subconscious, it totally negates the concept of free will.
[/quote]
I really am not getting what the difference here is between “conscious” and “free will”. It seems like you’re using them interchangeably and thus they are the same thing? Also, when do we EVER make a conscious decision that’s unbiased? I am so confused. What if the factors present in the subconscious are the EXACT SAME as the ones in the conscious mind and the conscious decision is first deliberated on an unconscious level that’s EXACTLY the same as the conscious level, but faster, and then it takes a second for the process to complete and for us to materialize action from it? What if this subconscious place is in fact our deepest level of free will in that it makes decisions like a free-willed being.
Are you truly unbiased, or do you have preferences you are not aware of?
[/quote]
Where did “unbiased” come from in this conversation?
What if the preferences in the subconscious level discussed are the SAME as the ones on the conscious level, as it would seem from everything that’s been said about how this subconscious level seems to “know” the preferences and values of the conscious level. Honestly, it sounds like they are the same thing! Just different steps of the same process which allows people to make decisions aligned with their goals and values.
Free will is a concept used in philosophy. It really doesn’t have much meaning in the context of this thread.
Its used in ethics. In order for someone to have moral culpability they need to have free will. If there is no free will there is no moral responsibility. How can you hold someone responsible for their actions if they have no free will?
So there are a few positions and a ton of arguments on it. It more or less starts out with whether free will is compatible with determinism and goes from there not to get bogged down in a ton of details. You can search out determinism and compatibilist and incompatibilist positions on free will.
To take a pragmatic view like I said absolutely everyone believes in the concept of free will. From parents to the criminal justice system everyone acts as if people have a moral responsibility for their actions.
You might get your guys like Trib say who will say everything is predetermined but when push comes to shove I’d imagine he’s onboard with holding murderers and rapists responsible for their actions and not simply letting things go because people have no free will.
People have a problem with experiments like the one in this thread because almost all of them show that we have much less conscious control over our decisions. This is of course unpalatable for all of us who like to think we are in control when in fact all of our biology and environment we have grown up in make our decisions foregone conclusions much of the time. However there are so many factors involved its not going to be all that obvious to anyone what these choices are.
I’m not gonna do it, tough as it is. Nuthin to do with the mention of my name by Groo. I can hardly stand it. Great stuff here now, but Ephrem I will keep my word and refrain.
Free will indicates a conscious agent that’s able to decide without bias.
If the brain deliberates unconsciously and chooses, or guides the choice at the very least, based on factors present in the subconscious, it totally negates the concept of free will.
[/quote]
I really am not getting what the difference here is between “conscious” and “free will”. It seems like you’re using them interchangeably and thus they are the same thing? Also, when do we EVER make a conscious decision that’s unbiased? I am so confused. What if the factors present in the subconscious are the EXACT SAME as the ones in the conscious mind and the conscious decision is first deliberated on an unconscious level that’s EXACTLY the same as the conscious level, but faster, and then it takes a second for the process to complete and for us to materialize action from it? What if this subconscious place is in fact our deepest level of free will in that it makes decisions like a free-willed being.[/quote]
First of all, I don’t believe in free will as it’s usually defined.
That means that I don’t think we are able to make an unbiased decision; our decision-making is based on factors like experience, fears, upbringing and so on.
The subconscious can’t be at the deepest level of free will simply because the subconscious consists of [supressed or forgotten] memory. Also, the brain processes so much more information than we are aware of, so there’s information in our subconscious we might not even know is there.
The way our brains and minds work leads me to conclude that free will cannot exist.
Are you truly unbiased, or do you have preferences you are not aware of?
[/quote]
Where did “unbiased” come from in this conversation?
What if the preferences in the subconscious level discussed are the SAME as the ones on the conscious level, as it would seem from everything that’s been said about how this subconscious level seems to “know” the preferences and values of the conscious level. Honestly, it sounds like they are the same thing! Just different steps of the same process which allows people to make decisions aligned with their goals and values.[/quote]
In order to make a free will decision you must be able to make that decision in an unbiased way or else it won’t be a free will decision.
As explained in the previous post, we usually aren’t aware of what’s part of the subconscious, so the deliberation part in the subconscious is not the same as the conscious process when we choose between the options that arise after the deliberation process.
Free will indicates a conscious agent that’s able to decide without bias.
If the brain deliberates unconsciously and chooses, or guides the choice at the very least, based on factors present in the subconscious, it totally negates the concept of free will.
[/quote]
I really am not getting what the difference here is between “conscious” and “free will”. It seems like you’re using them interchangeably and thus they are the same thing? Also, when do we EVER make a conscious decision that’s unbiased? I am so confused. What if the factors present in the subconscious are the EXACT SAME as the ones in the conscious mind and the conscious decision is first deliberated on an unconscious level that’s EXACTLY the same as the conscious level, but faster, and then it takes a second for the process to complete and for us to materialize action from it? What if this subconscious place is in fact our deepest level of free will in that it makes decisions like a free-willed being.[/quote]
First of all, I don’t believe in free will as it’s usually defined.
That means that I don’t think we are able to make an unbiased decision; our decision-making is based on factors like experience, fears, upbringing and so on.
The subconscious can’t be at the deepest level of free will simply because the subconscious consists of [supressed or forgotten] memory. Also, the brain processes so much more information than we are aware of, so there’s information in our subconscious we might not even know is there.
The way our brains and minds work leads me to conclude that free will cannot exist.[/quote]
Well if “unbiased” is the pre-req for free will I have to say that’s one of the stupidest ideas I’ve ever heard of and the reason I was having trouble grasping the definition this thread was aimed at was because I don’t think that can possibly exist. I thought the point was just to figure out how biases play into decision-making and what that whole process consists of. I wasn’t thinking for a second that perhaps the decision-making processes were separate from all previous biases. Of course there’s information stowed away in our brains we aren’t even be consciously aware of. Just look at relationship decisions.
First of all, I don’t believe in free will as it’s usually defined.
That means that I don’t think we are able to make an unbiased decision; our decision-making is based on factors like experience, fears, upbringing and so on.
The subconscious can’t be at the deepest level of free will simply because the subconscious consists of [supressed or forgotten] memory. Also, the brain processes so much more information than we are aware of, so there’s information in our subconscious we might not even know is there.
The way our brains and minds work leads me to conclude that free will cannot exist.[/quote]
Well if “unbiased” is the pre-req for free will I have to say that’s one of the stupidest ideas I’ve ever heard of and the reason I was having trouble grasping the definition this thread was aimed at was because I don’t think that can possibly exist. I thought the point was just to figure out how biases play into decision-making and what that whole process consists of. I wasn’t thinking for a second that perhaps the decision-making processes were separate from all previous biases. Of course there’s information stowed away in our brains we aren’t even be consciously aware of. Just look at relationship decisions. [/quote]
Well, once you start accepting that perhaps the self doesn’t, or can’t, exist seperately from the brain you eventually come to a point where you realise that the self is a mirage conjured-up by the brain/the senses.
[“You” as the general you]
This is difficult to understand, and to accept, for many people, let alone religious people. That does not mean there aren’t many things we still don’t understand about consciousness and the brain but sometimes a cigar is a cigar.
[quote]groo wrote:
Free will is a concept used in philosophy. It really doesn’t have much meaning in the context of this thread.
Its used in ethics. In order for someone to have moral culpability they need to have free will. If there is no free will there is no moral responsibility. How can you hold someone responsible for their actions if they have no free will?
So there are a few positions and a ton of arguments on it. It more or less starts out with whether free will is compatible with determinism and goes from there not to get bogged down in a ton of details. You can search out determinism and compatibilist and incompatibilist positions on free will.
To take a pragmatic view like I said absolutely everyone believes in the concept of free will. From parents to the criminal justice system everyone acts as if people have a moral responsibility for their actions.
You might get your guys like Trib say who will say everything is predetermined but when push comes to shove I’d imagine he’s onboard with holding murderers and rapists responsible for their actions and not simply letting things go because people have no free will.
People have a problem with experiments like the one in this thread because almost all of them show that we have much less conscious control over our decisions. This is of course unpalatable for all of us who like to think we are in control when in fact all of our biology and environment we have grown up in make our decisions foregone conclusions much of the time. However there are so many factors involved its not going to be all that obvious to anyone what these choices are.
[/quote]
Well said.
Paradoxally, the only ‘free will’ we might have, in my opinion, is making the choice not to act on a decision or impulse.
Paradoxally, the only ‘free will’ we might have, in my opinion, is making the choice not to act on a decision or impulse.
[/quote]
Spoken like a true Social Conservative.
[/quote]
Spoken like someone without any knowledge of the mechanism of decision making.
Oh well, I kind of concede the point that that sounds like a true conservative but what makes you stop and ponder is your frontal cortex and how developed it is.
If I damaged yours you would not be able to resist any kind of temptation no matter how small.
Incidentally you have very little influence how your frontal cortex might develop but your ability to resist temptation as a child is an excellent predictor of where you will end up in life.
First of all, I don’t believe in free will as it’s usually defined.
That means that I don’t think we are able to make an unbiased decision; our decision-making is based on factors like experience, fears, upbringing and so on.
The subconscious can’t be at the deepest level of free will simply because the subconscious consists of [supressed or forgotten] memory. Also, the brain processes so much more information than we are aware of, so there’s information in our subconscious we might not even know is there.
The way our brains and minds work leads me to conclude that free will cannot exist.[/quote]
Well if “unbiased” is the pre-req for free will I have to say that’s one of the stupidest ideas I’ve ever heard of and the reason I was having trouble grasping the definition this thread was aimed at was because I don’t think that can possibly exist. I thought the point was just to figure out how biases play into decision-making and what that whole process consists of. I wasn’t thinking for a second that perhaps the decision-making processes were separate from all previous biases. Of course there’s information stowed away in our brains we aren’t even be consciously aware of. Just look at relationship decisions. [/quote]
Well, once you start accepting that perhaps the self doesn’t, or can’t, exist seperately from the brain you eventually come to a point where you realise that the self is a mirage conjured-up by the brain/the senses.
[“You” as the general you]
This is difficult to understand, and to accept, for many people, let alone religious people. That does not mean there aren’t many things we still don’t understand about consciousness and the brain but sometimes a cigar is a cigar.[/quote]