[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< This means that you’ve made an unconscious decision and that it can take up to 6 seconds before you think you actually are making the decision.
So there’s decision making without you making a decision. Or, the decision is made prior to the thought of you making the decision.[/quote]That’s probably the providential, predestined manifestation of the decree of God. [quote]<<< I know, O LORD, that a man’s way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps. >>>[/quote] Jeremiah 10:23 =] [/quote]
It probably isn’t.
[/quote]I don’t know. I was jist playin with ya ol buddy. This kinda stuff is really interesting though.
This experiment is hard to understand because it never says how much time it took him to make the decision after the question was asked. When I think about decision-making experiments, I kind of assume that the experimenters are asking questions with a fast answer. There would maybe be 6 seconds TOTAL between the question being asked and the button being pushed, during which the person is processing the question. So that means the brain activity indicating a decision being made happened RIGHT when the questioned was asked and it took 6 seconds for the person to turn this into action.
How do they know that that first sign of the decision-making, though delayed from the moment when the person “figures it out”, is not a conscious decision? They already said that it’s known to be influenced by beliefs. That sounds like an intelligent, changeable process to me.
Maybe I’m not getting what they mean by “conscious”.[/quote]
So the six seconds was thinking about which decision to make? That’s plausible. It seems that the researchers assume that when you press the button that’s the moment you’ve decided what to do and not allow for contemplation.
If that is true then the experiment is flawed. I’ll watch the whole episode to see if this concern is raised.
Stay tuned.[/quote]
The problem is, both the wikipedia link and the video don’t give any real information about the exact timing of the questions to the pressing of the button. I’d like to see this experiment done with questions with fast answers like “Which do you like more, purple or blue”, something where a button will be pressed within 2 seconds of the question’s end. That would be really interesting.
My guess is that the initial decision making that they see going off in the brain is actually “free will” in that it is changeable. For instance, if you are hungry, but dieting, it knows that and will decide not to eat when the body is hungry. BTW, I personally think not eating is the most simple, perfect example of “free will” that there is.
But once again, I still feel like I’m not really getting what he means by “free will”.
Wait, so how do they know the final decision, up to 6 seconds later, coincides with the decision supposedly made 6 seconds earlier? Why isn’t the earlier activity simply measuring the processing of similar experiences (a shortcut ‘decision’) which can then be amended consciously in the presence of new information within what would otherwise be a similar experience?
Edit: Heck, the unconscious process could be providing a couple of shortcut decisions which can then be ‘picked’ from, or discarded entirely for a brand new reaction/decision.
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< This means that you’ve made an unconscious decision and that it can take up to 6 seconds before you think you actually are making the decision.
So there’s decision making without you making a decision. Or, the decision is made prior to the thought of you making the decision.[/quote]That’s probably the providential, predestined manifestation of the decree of God. [quote]<<< I know, O LORD, that a man’s way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps. >>>[/quote] Jeremiah 10:23 =] [/quote]
I just happened across this thread…Tirib, are you saying that that scripture references some form of predestination?
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< This means that you’ve made an unconscious decision and that it can take up to 6 seconds before you think you actually are making the decision.
So there’s decision making without you making a decision. Or, the decision is made prior to the thought of you making the decision.[/quote]That’s probably the providential, predestined manifestation of the decree of God. [quote]<<< I know, O LORD, that a man’s way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps. >>>[/quote] Jeremiah 10:23 =] [/quote]
I just happened across this thread…Tirib, are you saying that that scripture references some form of predestination?[/quote]
Hoo boy. Where have you been?! Not a knock on ya. I just know where this is going to end up now.
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< This means that you’ve made an unconscious decision and that it can take up to 6 seconds before you think you actually are making the decision.
So there’s decision making without you making a decision. Or, the decision is made prior to the thought of you making the decision.[/quote]That’s probably the providential, predestined manifestation of the decree of God. [quote]<<< I know, O LORD, that a man’s way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps. >>>[/quote] Jeremiah 10:23 =] [/quote] I just happened across this thread…Tirib, are you saying that that scripture references some form of predestination?[/quote]
Hoo boy. Where have you been?! Not a knock on ya. I just know where this is going to end up now.
[/quote] Nope. Honest Lifter is welcome to follow my very ample posting history and I will be glad to continue to demonstrate the truth of the almighty all sovereign creator God without whose universally efficacious decree not one atom in all the vast cosmos dare twitch. He can start with the freewill thread, but I am already well aware that this man worships the God of Arius of Alexandria in it’s modern incarnation in the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. I will not mention this in Ephrem’s thread again. Unless Ephrem takes it that way.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I will not mention this in Ephrem’s thread again. Unless Ephrem takes it that way.
[/quote]
Didn’t mean it like that, actually. Was more about needing to ask about your view of predestination. Just saying he missed some loong threads, heh.[/quote]No he didn’t =]
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Free Will is not a psychological phenomenon. It is praxeological – the using of means for the attainment of purposeful ends.
Man’s only tool to make choices is reason. Psychology only matters in the sense that a man’s mental state might affect how he reasons those choices – this is not to say he had no purpose behind his actions.
When a man makes a mistake in action at best we might say he acted incorrectly to attain the desired means; or he was confused about which desired ends he really wished to attain. Free Will is still the agent he used for making those choices, for whatever reason he made them.
Honestly I think this guy is off his rocker a bit to suggest that "intention comes after the fact". If I am hungry, I eat. Also, if it is supposedly an unconscious phenomenon how could he know about it?
Psychology is a totally bullshit science.
edited.[/quote]
If you had watched, or understood, the video you'd realise that areas of the brain that govern decision-making show activity [b]before[/b] there's a conscious effort.
This means that you've made an unconscious decision and that it can take up to 6 seconds before you think you actually are making the decision.
So there's decision making without you making a decision. Or, the decision is made prior to the thought of you making the decision.[/quote]
Just because I do not know that I have decided before it shows up at a brain scanner hardly means that I did not make the decision.
Plus, I doubt that a brain scanner can show you what decision you are going to make, it might just show that you are ramping up to make one.
[quote]orion wrote:<<< Just because I do not know that I have decided before it shows up at a brain scanner hardly means that I did not make the decision. >>>[/quote] He’s not saying you didn’t.[quote]orion wrote:<<< Plus, I doubt that a brain scanner can show you what decision you are going to make, >>>[/quote]That’s not what he’s saying either.[quote]orion wrote:<<< it might just show that you are ramping up to make one. >>>[/quote]That IS what he’s saying. The trouble is, this is EXACTLY the type of thing where our scientists pop the cork hollerin “YAAAAAY, look what we found” only to have some other later research pee their bed for em. This may or may not be accurate. I don’t know one way or the other. Jist sayin.
I hope they keep studyin though. Nobody supports discovery more than I do. I’d much prefer my tax dollars going to research like this than to further destroy our families with social welfare spending.
The problem is, both the wikipedia link and the video don’t give any real information about the exact timing of the questions to the pressing of the button. I’d like to see this experiment done with questions with fast answers like “Which do you like more, purple or blue”, something where a button will be pressed within 2 seconds of the question’s end. That would be really interesting.
My guess is that the initial decision making that they see going off in the brain is actually “free will” in that it is changeable. For instance, if you are hungry, but dieting, it knows that and will decide not to eat when the body is hungry. BTW, I personally think not eating is the most simple, perfect example of “free will” that there is.
But once again, I still feel like I’m not really getting what he means by “free will”.[/quote]
I still wasn’t able to find the episode but I’ll have more time tomorrow.
The video did suggest that the choice made consciously had been made unconsciously splitseconds earlier. The idea of a “free will” that allows a person to make an independent decision is negated if the brain makes the decision for us without us even able to deliberate that decision.
But as was pointed out, it can’t be established whether this actually happened or not because we don’t have sufficient data to come to that conclusion solely based on the video.
This experiment was not expressed in enough detail to make any real statement. The man behaves as though his world is shaken, but what does the fact that a computer recognizes right or left in his brain signify in the real world? Is this man now going to sit and be totally inactive because his brain is deciding things without his conscious awareness- yet even that choice would be predetermined. Right or left is a simple choice, much different than the decisions that we make that matter. The choice of killing a person is not a simple left or right hand choice and neither are even simpler decisions: what we will choose for dessert or the flavor of coffee in the morning. We do things constantly where our brain causes the action to take place, but we are still in control of that decision. As I type these words, no one would be able to look in my brain six seconds earlier and know exactly the words I would write, the mistakes I would make, the speed of my typing. Many choices that we make are made in a split second, with no possible way to determine the outcome beforehand. In the world of racing, how can you consciously make a choice six seconds beforehand when you’ve already passed a few hundred yards during that time? I call bullshit.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Wait, so how do they know the final decision, up to 6 seconds later, coincides with the decision supposedly made 6 seconds earlier? Why isn’t the earlier activity simply measuring the processing of similar experiences (a shortcut ‘decision’) which can then be amended consciously in the presence of new information within what would otherwise be a similar experience?
Edit: Heck, the unconscious process could be providing a couple of shortcut decisions which can then be ‘picked’ from, or discarded entirely for a brand new reaction/decision.[/quote]I just saw this and must say that it is a very valid consideration. I was thinking even more fundamentally than this though. How does anybody in the first place know for certain (there’s that word again) the content of the previous brain activity so as to know that it’s correlated to the coming decision at all? Maybe they do. I’m certainly no expert in this area. I’m guessing they must be assuming on the basis of the person’s report concerning what they were thinking about, and the activity they observe. that the latter produces the former. I didn’t actually watch the video. I was taking your guy’s word for what was in it. Maybe I should watch it huh?
Free will is purely a philosophical conceit though used to determine moral responsibility. Absolutely everyone acts as if they completely agree with free will.
Probably a better way of saying what the TS wanted to say may be that we have much less conscious control of what appears to be choices in behavior than was ever thought. Though what brings about this state is such a collection of genetics and environment that largely in the end it makes little difference.
Okay, here’s where I’m confused- why is an unconscious decision making process NOT considered free will given that it’s making decisions that reflect personal belief systems and it can override basic physical impulses, like hunger. I don’t get why the fact that it’s unconscious automatically excludes it from being free will.
