Uh-huh. And who will pay off the debt, the taxes, and all the obligations already made? It won’t be the longer lived, but not necessarily capable of working, seniors.
And where will your young able-bodied/sound of mind workers come from for labor starved business, since domestically you’re no longer producing (reproducing) them? Yup.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Uh-huh. And who will pay off the debt, the taxes, and all the obligations already made? It won’t be the longer lived, but not necessarily capable of working, seniors.
And where will your young able-bodied/sound of mind workers come from for labor starved business, since domestically you’re no longer producing (reproducing) them? Yup.[/quote]
There’s more people than there are jobs. A labor shortage is a nice problem to have, when the alternative is perpetual unemployment rates around 10% (and that doesn’t even take into account the amount of people who have simply stopped looking).
The debt will be easier to pay off if we aren’t hemorrhaging money in all the areas that we currently do. About half of our budget goes toward various social reform programs. Many of those programs are only necessary because there are more people than resources and too many low-end jobs go to illegal immigrants.
Like I stated earlier, the reduction in population isn’t something that happens in a vacuum. There are other peripheral actions that would also have to be put into motion. The fact is that the problems you anticipate would only be problems if the ONLY thing that happened was a reduction in the population or the birth rate. The addition of the other actions I have previously proposed would actually lessen the potential for the problems you anticipate, not make them more likely.
And I would also like to point out that this is in no way a short-term solution. Sure, things might get a little messy at first. But it’s our pathological avoidance of such short-term malaise that keeps us from ever even undertaking the long-term solutions that are really necessary if we want to leave something for our grandchildren. Nobody wants to make the sacrifices that must be made if we want our children and grandchildren to enjoy quality lives, despite pretty much everyone claiming to want to do so. And we do want to do so (provide for future Americans), it’s just that we all want everyone else to make those sacrifices.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
The debt will be easier to pay off if we aren’t hemorrhaging money in all the areas that we currently do. [/quote]
Who will pay it off? The entitlements the elderly and affirm rely on the most will consume our entire budget alone. No money for the military, nothing. Just entitlement obligations and interest on the ever rising debt. You won’t have nowhere near enough young able body worker/taxpayers. The pyramid, with the young as the wide supporting base, is being/has been inverted.
Do you also imagine the majority (the elderly and nearing), what few kids they did manage to have, and their even fewer grandchildren are going to allow any meaningful cuts in those entitlements? Nope.
Oh, and these observable natural rights, what scientific instrument should I use to measure them?
Another thing, who exactly is going to vote to “get rid of those illegals.” The soon to be white/western-cultured gray-headed and wrinkled minority-majority that isn’t exactly unanimous on the issue amongst themselves? If you haven’t done it yet, you won’t be doing it tomorrow when there’s even less of you, relatively speaking.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Natural Rights are observable in nature. It doesn’t really matter from whom they came; they exist the second we are born. Whatever it is that you feel has put you on this planet, at that moment of conception you have the Natural Right to life, liberty, property, and to defend these things.[/quote]
The way I see it, you’re taking natural instincts (or something similar to it) and deciding to define them as “natural rights”. I don’t think that works, and it requires something similar to circular logic to work.
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Natural Rights are observable in nature. It doesn’t really matter from whom they came; they exist the second we are born. Whatever it is that you feel has put you on this planet, at that moment of conception you have the Natural Right to life, liberty, property, and to defend these things.[/quote]
The way I see it, you’re taking natural instincts (or something similar to it) and deciding to define them as “natural rights”. I don’t think that works, and it requires something similar to circular logic to work.
[/quote]
In the end believing in natural rights is like believing in God. Faith. No more observable, nor empirical.
This thread is one shining example of what I consider to be generational narcissism.
If you think that people are more stupid than ever, it’s only because you invite them into your home via social media.
If you think that our politicians today are the worst bunch ever, it’s only because you’ve forgotten about the past Machines and Tammany Hall.
If you’re tired of being called a racist for (rightfully) objecting to BHO’s policies, then find more intelligent people to debate with.
Do you (in the general sense) not think that EVERY generation has thought that they were witnessing the turning point of civilization? Jesus tap-dancing Christ, 150 years ago our Republic was being split at the seams yet you think that NOW, because some SJW posts bumper-sticker aphorisms on Tumblr, we’re at a societal inflection point? Get a fucking grip.
Fifty years ago, a wed interracial couple had their house raided in the middle of the night because they were “cohabiting as man and wife, against the peace and dignity of the Commonwealth” and sentenced to a year in prison, but it’s only now that society needs to have a flamethrower taken to it, because why? Oh, yeah, because when you (general) argue with idiots, sometimes idiotic things get said.
Give me a fucking break. Whether Hillary gets elected or not, we live in the greatest country during the greatest period of human history. And frankly, it doesn’t fucking matter who gets elected any more than it mattered that Cleveland beat Garfield, then Harrison beat Cleveland, then Cleveland beat Harrison 130 years ago.
And if you* could let Sloth and I know how exactly we should measure these natural rights (or at least by what mechanism they’re imbued into us) that would be great.
Edited because I veered into being insulting and that wasn’t my intention.
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
And if you* could let Sloth and I know how exactly we should measure these natural rights (or at least by what mechanism they’re imbued into us) that would be great.
[/quote]
When you answer the last question you dodged when we spoke of it, you’ll have your answer.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Oh, and these observable natural rights, what scientific instrument should I use to measure them?[/quote]
A) why do you think we’ve come to understand all the scientific instruments the universe offers us?
b) To help illustrate, let me ask you a question. For the sake of this question let’s assume your name is Jake.
Me and my government cronies pass a constitutional amendment that all people named Jake are now slaves. You specifically have been assigned to my front porch. Do you report tomorrow morning?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
The debt will be easier to pay off if we aren’t hemorrhaging money in all the areas that we currently do. [/quote]
Who will pay it off? The entitlements the elderly and affirm rely on the most will consume our entire budget alone. No money for the military, nothing. Just entitlement obligations and interest on the ever rising debt. You won’t have nowhere near enough young able body worker/taxpayers. The pyramid, with the young as the wide supporting base, is being/has been inverted.
Do you also imagine the majority (the elderly and nearing), what few kids they did manage to have, and their even fewer grandchildren are going to allow any meaningful cuts in those entitlements? Nope. [/quote]
Did you not catch in an earlier post where I referenced lessening the amount that is spent on entitlement programs, in conjunction with several other LONG-TERM solutions? You’re continually harping on the short-term problems that I have repeatedly stated prevents this country from enacting long-term solutions. Quite frankly, your insistence on looking no further than the immediate malaise that would occur is exactly the attitude that I have continually referenced in my last several posts.
People will suffer today so that the rest of America does not suffer tomorrow. It’s no different than the current situation anyways. People suffer, and politicians with short-term outlooks always try to use the potential to end that suffering to get elected.
By paying out massive entitlements so that the elderly don’t suffer only guarantees that another demographic WILL suffer.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Oh, and these observable natural rights, what scientific instrument should I use to measure them?[/quote]
How about your eyeballs and a history book or three?
Natural rights are really not any different than any other Natural Law, like the laws of physics.
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Edited because I veered into being insulting and that wasn’t my intention.
[/quote]
No, your intent was to insult me, and that’s fine. This is politics and I don’t take it personal.
You can pretend it all away and try and justify with “have some perspective”, and that’s fine. It’s likely where my own thoughts on the matter will be in a couple of weeks.
But insulating yourself from the world around you, and whitewashing everything with “but yesterday was pretty bad too”, isn’t exactly going to positive progression of the species.
“What kind of fucking narcissist is mad about a tax on Tea? Shit, when we were back in England they would hang us for not believing the right God. Get a fucking grip man.” - Said all the Founding Fathers.
“You don’t like Jim Crow? Get a fucking grip, 50 years ago you would have been a slave.”
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
This thread is one shining example of what I consider to be generational narcissism.
If you think that people are more stupid than ever, it’s only because you invite them into your home via social media.
If you think that our politicians today are the worst bunch ever, it’s only because you’ve forgotten about the past Machines and Tammany Hall.
If you’re tired of being called a racist for (rightfully) objecting to BHO’s policies, then find more intelligent people to debate with.
Do you (in the general sense) not think that EVERY generation has thought that they were witnessing the turning point of civilization? Jesus tap-dancing Christ, 150 years ago our Republic was being split at the seams yet you think that NOW, because some SJW posts bumper-sticker aphorisms on Tumblr, we’re at a societal inflection point? Get a fucking grip.
Fifty years ago, a wed interracial couple had their house raided in the middle of the night because they were “cohabiting as man and wife, against the peace and dignity of the Commonwealth” and sentenced to a year in prison, but it’s only now that society needs to have a flamethrower taken to it, because why? Oh, yeah, because when you (general) argue with idiots, sometimes idiotic things get said.
Give me a fucking break. Whether Hillary gets elected or not, we live in the greatest country during the greatest period of human history. And frankly, it doesn’t fucking matter who gets elected any more than it mattered that Cleveland beat Garfield, then Harrison beat Cleveland, then Cleveland beat Harrison 130 years ago.
And if you* could let Sloth and I know how exactly we should measure these natural rights (or at least by what mechanism they’re imbued into us) that would be great.
Edited because I veered into being insulting and that wasn’t my intention.
[/quote]
You’re taking the thread title waaaaaaayyyy too literally, Dr.
Of course we live in great times. Great times occur when problems are acknowledged and addressed. I think the general point that Beans is making is that he worries about our ability to continue addressing problems when he sees people who are otherwise seemingly intelligent repeatedly exercise basic errors in critical thinking.
And despite the factualness of your post, you did not mention that the level of education in this country is going down. I agree that these are great times, and I’d like to maintain them.
Quite frankly, I think the comment about narcissism is inappropriate and holds no place in an otherwise civil discussion. I think you’re being equally narcissistic to think that because things are better than they were centuries ago, we may be able to continue progressing forward in perpetuity.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
“You don’t like Jim Crow? Get a fucking grip, 50 years ago you would have been a slave.”[/quote]
I would also argue that Dr.'s argument falls pretty flat in other parts of the world, such as Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Ethiopia, Somalia, Iran, North Korea, parts of Russia, the Ukraine, Venezuela, Greece, Saudi Arabia, Kenya, Sudan, South Sudan, Uganda, Rwanda, parts of India, and Tibet.
And for most of those countries, if you don’t have a cock swinging around between your legs then you’re doubly fucked.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Natural Rights are observable in nature. It doesn’t really matter from whom they came; they exist the second we are born. Whatever it is that you feel has put you on this planet, at that moment of conception you have the Natural Right to life, liberty, property, and to defend these things.[/quote]
The way I see it, you’re taking natural instincts (or something similar to it) and deciding to define them as “natural rights”. I don’t think that works, and it requires something similar to circular logic to work.
[/quote]
In the end believing in natural rights is like believing in God. Faith. No more observable, nor empirical. [/quote]
I don’t hold the same religious views as you, so I won’t pretend to have a lot of knowledge in this area. However, I can assume that there are several things you experience on a daily basis that reaffirms your faith.
Do you know the difference between right and wrong? Do you know that stealing is bad? Do you know that killing someone or imprisoning them without cause is bad? And do you know these things “naturally”, or did you have to have it taught to you?
Was your first instinct as a child, before you could even understand your parents, to kill small animals? Did you ever try to severely injure another child, or perhaps even kill one? Were you ever okay with a toy being taken away from you?
Can you name a situation in which death with no cause, enslavement, and a loss of property is met without any resistance whatsoever? And if you say “the United States”, then this conversation is over.
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Do you (in the general sense) not think that EVERY generation has thought that they were witnessing the turning point of civilization? [/quote]
In one respect or another, they were. Each and every one. Big or small, material to the whole or individually, they were.
And at the time one could have pointed to the ills that encompassed other areas of the world, or even said “150 years ago we were all slaves to the British, but you think NOW because some uncivilized northerners want to free these negros, we’re at a societal inflection point? Get a fucking grip.”
You’re right, and those damn inbreeders should have been happy one of them wasn’t still a slave and gotten a grip, right?
Seeing as you’ve largely contradicted yourself the entire time, because non of America’s greatness came from “getting grips” and being content with the status quo, in fact it was notions like these, hard introspections personified across the vast land of individualism that has lead us beyond our previous short comings and into a significantly better world today, than yesterday.
I’m not saying this thread is some profound stating point of some social or cultural revolution, far from it. In fact you’ve all but called it garbage, others chicken little fantasy. That’s fine, and your opinions may be more valid than mine, I don’t know.
But I do know that the ashlar’s holding up the building are far, far from perfect, the building itself could use some renovations, which may or may not be minor in comparison to previous work, but irrelevant, wondering if we have the right working tools isn’t narcissistic. In fact I’d say trying to make a more perfect collection of ashlar’s, each as perfect as they can get, is the most American thing, an American can do.
Maybe I’m wrong, and you can let me know when is the appropriate time for a narcissist like me to question things?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
And if you* could let Sloth and I know how exactly we should measure these natural rights (or at least by what mechanism they’re imbued into us) that would be great.
[/quote]
When you answer the last question you dodged when we spoke of it, you’ll have your answer. [/quote]
Remind me, was yours the question that involved transporting me to an uninhabited planet or the one where - overnight - an Amendment to the Constitution was passed reducing the status of everyone named “Pangloss” to a slave?
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
You’re taking the thread title waaaaaaayyyy too literally, Dr.[/quote]
That’s entirely possible.
If you interpreted my quote to mean “This generation is full of narcissists”, that wasn’t my intent.
Just like my mom thinks music begins and ends with the Beatles, and you might think the same about the RHCP, every generation believes that history begins or ends with them. Our athletes are the best ever and our politicians are the worst ever but history will show that the past 10 years or so will be entirely forgettable, much like most 10 years periods during US history. But because we’re the one’s experiencing it, we feel it must be important.