[quote] NickViar wrote:
Of course not, TB. You have to back to 1861 to find its end.
[/quote]
This is dumb and wrong on a number of levels, but if you’re interested in exploring the topic, do a search. The corpses of the looneytarian claim that “1861 was the end of our liberty-lovin’ nation!” litter the fields of PWI.
Here’s the thing - in nearly every segment of the modern era, right-wingers have claimed that the Republic is days away from folding. It’s always the case. Doom is impending.
And yet. While libertarians wail about the “destruction” of the nation because of the Civil War, the era directly after is recognized by the same libertarians as a libertarian golden age of industrial expansion and wealth creation. FDR’s New Deal destroyed the country, but out of the midst of the world war, America became the shining city on a hill that provided the best opportunity at a good life in the 20th century.
Despite all the near-death experiences the Republic has faced, I am now typing on something that was science fiction not 40 years ago.
In short, rumors of her demise are greatly exaggerated.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Despite all the near-death experiences the Republic has faced, I am now typing on something that was science fiction not 40 years ago.
[/quote]
While I agree with much of what you wrote, Beans, I will still contend that life is quite good here in the US of A. Even though I woke up to five inches of fresh snow in the Pine Tree State on this April morning. That’s some bullshit right there.
I used to follow politics very closely, and was even something of an activist back when activism involved more than “sharing” a digital story or “liking” a facebook page. Checking out of that world and spending my time and efforts on things that made me happy has, well, made me a lot happier. My politics have changed quite a bit as well, and I now believe I have a better view of the world around me. Simply stated, I was a miserable prick when I spent a lot of time and energy worrying about things both big and small that shape my world and were totally out of my control.
It may sound like I’m advocating apathy, and I guess I am. To a degree, at least. I still try to stay informed enough to cast a meaningful vote in local elections and ballot measures. I will usually just vote 3rd party for presidential and congressional elections, which actually worked out well when we sent Angus King (I) to the Senate.
This has been a recipe for good mental health and I don’t have to feel compromised by voting for some stooge or getting bent out of shape when the stooge I decided to get emotionally invested in loses under shady circumstances. I also direct my limited time and energy into efforts that are more rewarding to me than being a “well-informed” citizen of the United States.
Maybe I’m part of the problem, but if becoming part of the solution means immersing myself in the bullshit world of national politics again, well, I guess I’m happy being part of the problem.
Take the pill!
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Despite all the near-death experiences the Republic has faced, I am now typing on something that was science fiction not 40 years ago.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Brilliant.
And completely true. So many are now like the Princess and the Pea - the slightest interruption from their ability to do whatever they want, whenever they want, immediately, is evidence that life is terrible and (politically speaking) our liberties have been flushed down the toilet and the Constitution shredded and the country isn’t going to last 48 hours.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
FWIW, I remember well the “national malaise” of 1979 - 1980.[/quote]
Are you talking about the global economic scare as a result of freezing Iranian assets followed by the threat of such freezes in the Soviet Union?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
4) Argued with an astonishing amount (to me) of intelligent people whom I have nothing but respect for that natural rights don’t exist, and rights are granted by government.
[/quote]
(Assuming this refers to me)
I never claimed rights are granted by government!
[/quote]
Who are they granted by?[/quote]
Something much bigger and more powerful than any of us. That’s about as far as it needs to be taken.
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
4) Argued with an astonishing amount (to me) of intelligent people whom I have nothing but respect for that natural rights don’t exist, and rights are granted by government.
[/quote]
(Assuming this refers to me)
I never claimed rights are granted by government!
[/quote]
I know, and it wasn’t just you.
[quote]jnd wrote:
However- why does it bug you so much? You seem to have some thick skin- why are you affected now?
jnd[/quote]
Combination of things. The main thing being it is the end of tax season, and I’m emotionally, intellectually and physically exhausted. Twenty days from today I’ll be much less… down, about it.
The other major part of the issue is included in the response I’m going to post to TwoJars
[quote]twojarslave wrote:
While I agree with much of what you wrote, Beans, I will still contend that life is quite good here in the US of A. Even though I woke up to five inches of fresh snow in the Pine Tree State on this April morning. That’s some bullshit right there.
I used to follow politics very closely, and was even something of an activist back when activism involved more than “sharing” a digital story or “liking” a facebook page. Checking out of that world and spending my time and efforts on things that made me happy has, well, made me a lot happier. My politics have changed quite a bit as well, and I now believe I have a better view of the world around me. Simply stated, I was a miserable prick when I spent a lot of time and energy worrying about things both big and small that shape my world and were totally out of my control.
It may sound like I’m advocating apathy, and I guess I am. To a degree, at least. I still try to stay informed enough to cast a meaningful vote in local elections and ballot measures. I will usually just vote 3rd party for presidential and congressional elections, which actually worked out well when we sent Angus King (I) to the Senate.
This has been a recipe for good mental health and I don’t have to feel compromised by voting for some stooge or getting bent out of shape when the stooge I decided to get emotionally invested in loses under shady circumstances. I also direct my limited time and energy into efforts that are more rewarding to me than being a “well-informed” citizen of the United States.
Maybe I’m part of the problem, but if becoming part of the solution means immersing myself in the bullshit world of national politics again, well, I guess I’m happy being part of the problem.
Take the pill! [/quote]
I understand your position on this, but I would argue that the lower the engagement by the people, the lower the quality of life has become.
Years ago, government did not get away with the shit they do now because people stayed more informed, and there were nowhere near as many distractions. Today’s society has become castrated compared to how our parents reacted to this bullshit.
We had a recent local election, where the turnout was just 8.6%. Because of this, we now have laws that make possession of Rohypnol and theft of a gun under $950 a misdemeanor citation. We also have judges who think a man sodomizing a 3 year old girl would not cause to harm her, and reduced the sentence from a mandatory 25 years to 10 years feeling the punishment was too harsh.
The system favors the status quo, the bribes get larger, the hookers get dirtier, and the golf memberships get costlier. It became so hard for people to change the system, so people just give up.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
I know you take that view. What about him?
[/quote]
If rights do exist, then only a higher being (or if I don’t want to beat around the bush, God) can bestow it upon us.
But the concept that rights simply exist doesn’t make sense to me. Either they are given to us as absolute rights, or they’re simply things we made up, in which case they’d probably be defined as legal rights.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Despite all the near-death experiences the Republic has faced, I am now typing on something that was science fiction not 40 years ago.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Brilliant.
And completely true. So many are now like the Princess and the Pea - the slightest interruption from their ability to do whatever they want, whenever they want, immediately, is evidence that life is terrible and (politically speaking) our liberties have been flushed down the toilet and the Constitution shredded and the country isn’t going to last 48 hours.
[/quote]
Indeed…I was reminded of a thread some time ago where someone was lamenting all of the time wasted while waiting on the microwave to warm-up their meal.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
The Wall Street Journal publishes some really excellent Op Ed pieces. If you aren’t a subscriber, you’d love it. There are some smart, reasonable conservatives out there writing well thought out political pieces.
[/quote]
Read it everyday at lunch without fail. People don’t even bother to take it anymore because they know I’ll just stare them down if they take the A section lol. They read the Globe.
I got it on my phone too but need to renew.
I like it because I’m pissed off and disagree as much as I agree.
Their piece last week slaughtering Venture Capital is what started me down this path, lol. Ironically enough, today’s reply’s to the income equality piece too didn’t help.
It really is a great paper. Op Ed’s are in the editorial section, and the other articles are just news.
There is a facebook page “independent Voter” and it is just a bunch of astro turf bots, Sanders fans and disgruntled partisans… That page depresses me more than “being liberal” or “tea party network”.
More depression:
Net Neutrality. We just celebrated that last bastion of freedom we have being handed over to the same government the didn’t press Google’s anti-trust suit because they lobbied to the tune of 16-30 million dollars. People don’t think the google’s, Netflix and yahoo’s of the world, who are the only winners in “net neutrality” didn’t buy that take over? But you know, fuck Comcast…
We’re done, just done. [/quote]
Regarding the WSJ - no need to renew Beansie. If you want to read a subscription only article online just copy the headline and paste into Google, click the WSJ link and BOOM free article. Its worked without fail for me for the past 2 yrs.
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
I know you take that view. What about him?
[/quote]
If rights do exist within a vacuum, then only a higher being (or if I don’t want to beat around the bush, God) can bestow it upon us.
But the concept that rights simply exist doesn’t make sense to me. Either they are given to us as absolute rights, or they’re simply things we made up, in which case they’d probably be defined as legal rights.[/quote]
Natural Rights are observable in nature. It doesn’t really matter from whom they came; they exist the second we are born. Whatever it is that you feel has put you on this planet, at that moment of conception you have the Natural Right to life, liberty, property, and to defend these things.
Legal rights are generally rights conferred upon you by the government. They tend to deal with things that strictly human constructs, and in many ways exist as a way to further protect your Natural Rights. Also, the term “liberty” is quite vague. Legal rights are created to protect the fundamental aspects of liberty, as observed through common law. Although the Constitution does not explicitly protect the right to privacy, for instance, the 9th Amendment states that the rights listed in the first 8 Amendments are not the only rights individuals enjoy. Upon examination, privacy has always been treated as a fundamental aspect of liberty. Hence, the right to privacy.
That isn’t a right that is granted by any temporal authority. It is discovered and then protected by a temporal authority. Legal rights, in a very basic sense, only exist AFTER people come together to form some sort of legislative/governing entity to protect their Natural Rights first. Natural Rights are conferred at birth by whatever it is you think put you here; all other rights emanate from the ostensible protection of our Natural Rights first.
edit: sorry for cutting in line, Push. Just can’t resist.
[quote]twojarslave wrote:
Take the pill! [/quote]
I can’t. I did for the longest time, but my career requires I am plugged in if I want to reach my goals. Now I don’t need to be as plugged into politics as I am, but culture and economics… Yeah I do. Then seeing as the three are so intertwined I’m sucked right in.
Plus bullshitting about this stuff is rather fun and intellectually stimulating.
Then I look at my kids. I already provide them a better life than I could have dreamed of as a kid, albeit with different priorities and perspective than I was given, but much, much better.
My boy is just like his mother, except more pleasant. Which means he could survive nuclear Armageddon and come out the other side not only fine, but smiling and well adjusted. The damn kid is rock fucking solid, and I’m jealous at times how easy he assess, adapts and adjusts to things.
My daughter on the other hand is just like me, and her passion, emotional will and innate and uncompromising independence will be a blessing and a curse.
So as I sit here and look out at the economic horizon they are facing, I worry. I should always be able to make a living and put food in their mouths, but they face a landscape significantly different than I did at their age. I ask partners here about what they saw when they were at my stage of their career… Let’s just say, things have changed.
I have literally fought against odds stacked against me, greatly in some respects, for every inch, for every achievement and at times even for things as simple as an average result I’ve ever gotten. I’m tired. And this whole lamentation of a thread is really just the acknowledgement that not only is the path ahead going to get more difficult, but the fear that I won’t even be able to clear a good enough path for my kids to help their struggle.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Here’s the thing - in nearly every segment of the modern era, right-wingers have claimed that the Republic is days away from folding. It’s always the case. Doom is impending.
And yet. While libertarians wail about the “destruction” of the nation because of the Civil War, the era directly after is recognized by the same libertarians as a libertarian golden age of industrial expansion and wealth creation. FDR’s New Deal destroyed the country, but out of the midst of the world war, America became the shining city on a hill that provided the best opportunity at a good life in the 20th century.
Despite all the near-death experiences the Republic has faced, I am now typing on something that was science fiction not 40 years ago.
In short, rumors of her demise are greatly exaggerated.[/quote]
One of my favorite articles is from the backstory of newsweek in March 2010. I liked it so much I printed it off. Here’s some quotes from it:
How Big A National Debt Can We Stand? “The truth of the matter is we do not know whether we have gone as far as we can in debt…a lot of people are sure we are bankrupt already.” Jan. 27, 1952
Partisanship and Patriotism: "The charges and countercharges of partisanship that have been hurled in the Senate this week have disengaged a good deal of heat. March 29, 1918
Sharp Cut in Burning of Fossil Fuels Is Urged to Battle Shift in Climate:
“The earth has been warmer in the first five months of this year than in any comparable period.” June 24, 1988
Tea Party Meeting Fights New Taxes: “Charges of taxation without representation, confiscation, and unwarranted waste rang in the old South Meeting House this afternoon.” July 30, 1935
Inquiry Into High Salaries Pressed By the Government: “Since last May the Federal Reserve Board has inquired into possibly excessive compensation paid to officers of member banks.” Oct. 29, 1933
Cost of Education Rising In Colleges: “The cost of education for college students has risen. An index of a general rise in educational prices that has continued for the last five years with acceleration in the last year or two.” Feb. 22, 1916
We’ve been arguing about the same shit for a LONG time.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
but out of the midst of the world war, America became the shining city on a hill that provided the best opportunity at a good life in the 20th century.[/quote]
Yeah, however you don’t get the latter without the former. I’m sure you understand this, but without the rest of the advanced industrial world either getting bombed back to the stone age, or completely destroyed by the inherent flaws of collectivism and Marxist fallacy, America doesn’t shine quite as bright.
[quote]
Despite all the near-death experiences the Republic has faced, I am now typing on something that was science fiction not 40 years ago.[/quote]
And we just handed the regulation of that information over to the same government that ignores the Bill fo Rights and collects our data and tracks our lives in a way that was also science fiction 40 years ago.
Sure, but honestly answer the following:
Would MLK have a voice today?
Keep in mind that he was a rather large fan of that Jesus fellow and all that entails, and there are (apparently) a fair number of educated and intelligent people that don’t believe in natural rights.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Here’s the thing - in nearly every segment of the modern era, right-wingers have claimed that the Republic is days away from folding. It’s always the case. Doom is impending.
And yet. While libertarians wail about the “destruction” of the nation because of the Civil War, the era directly after is recognized by the same libertarians as a libertarian golden age of industrial expansion and wealth creation. FDR’s New Deal destroyed the country, but out of the midst of the world war, America became the shining city on a hill that provided the best opportunity at a good life in the 20th century.
Despite all the near-death experiences the Republic has faced, I am now typing on something that was science fiction not 40 years ago.
In short, rumors of her demise are greatly exaggerated.[/quote]
One of my favorite articles is from the backstory of newsweek in March 2010. I liked it so much I printed it off. Here’s some quotes from it:
How Big A National Debt Can We Stand? “The truth of the matter is we do not know whether we have gone as far as we can in debt…a lot of people are sure we are bankrupt already.” Jan. 27, 1952
Partisanship and Patriotism: "The charges and countercharges of partisanship that have been hurled in the Senate this week have disengaged a good deal of heat. March 29, 1918
Sharp Cut in Burning of Fossil Fuels Is Urged to Battle Shift in Climate:
“The earth has been warmer in the first five months of this year than in any comparable period.” June 24, 1988
Tea Party Meeting Fights New Taxes: “Charges of taxation without representation, confiscation, and unwarranted waste rang in the old South Meeting House this afternoon.” July 30, 1935
Inquiry Into High Salaries Pressed By the Government: “Since last May the Federal Reserve Board has inquired into possibly excessive compensation paid to officers of member banks.” Oct. 29, 1933
Cost of Education Rising In Colleges: “The cost of education for college students has risen. An index of a general rise in educational prices that has continued for the last five years with acceleration in the last year or two.” Feb. 22, 1916
We’ve been arguing about the same shit for a LONG time. [/quote]
Yes, which shows that the experiment failed long ago.