The Global Warming Myth?

Patrick,

If I was to quote you at all, I would quote you correctly. Rest assured, nobody mistook my characterization of your post as your words.

[quote]Patrick Williams wrote:
There are a couple of problems with interpretations of the temperature data sets of the 20th century, which is the data set that most CO2/Global Warming advocates reference, since that’s the century when our fossil fuel use had the greatest increase.
[/quote]
There are many questions and counter points to the arguments.

This could even be one of them. However, many cities are not in fact growing at any real discernable rate, and I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t be hard to account for this effect if it was able to be quantified.

I like this stuff. The administration best known for cherry-picking gets to accuse others of cherry-picking, because worrying about the environment is bad for big business and quite costly in economic terms.

I realize that there are questions of how much of the warming is manmade, but the melting of the glaciers, thawing of permafrost and so forth are not due to cities getting larger. Neither are the changing compositions of the gases in the atmosphere.

There aren’t just one or two things pointing in this direction…

And I really don’t like it being characterized as my side of the discussion. I’m not representing anything or anybody. I simply believe that mankind has an ongoing tradition of discovering that the things we do have effects we didn’t expect.

I trust that this will happen with respect to climate change as well, either sooner or later. I am not however predicting mass disasters or attempting to scare monger.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Maybe you should look a little deeper and use something approaching more authentic information before throwing out the “any questions” taunt?[/quote]

Oh boy vroom. Your last link is relying upon the IPCC report that Mann wrote. Come ON, man!

The links I threw up about Mann was just first hit google stuff that I thought told a story about this dude, and maybe I should have just left them off, seeing as how you are questioning their reliability.

So I give you this link, again:

Here is why I have a serious hate on for this asshole (relevant quote):

[i]… But it wasnt so. McIntyre and McKitrick obtained part of the program that Mann used, and they found serious problems. Not only does the program not do conventional PCA, but it handles data normalization in a way that can only be described as mistaken.

Now comes the real shocker. This improper normalization procedure tends to emphasize any data that do have the hockey stick shape, and to suppress all data that do not. To demonstrate this effect, McIntyre and McKitrick created some meaningless test data that had, on average, no trends. This method of generating random data is called Monte Carlo analysis, after the famous casino, and it is widely used in statistical analysis to test procedures. When McIntyre and McKitrick fed these random data into the Mann procedure, out popped a hockey stick shape! [/i]

So now matter what data you put into Mann’s program, the hockey stick happens.

Could the writing be any more on the wall than this? Come on buddy, this isn’t just “Oops!”, this is “Oh shit! they caught me!”

Mann is supposed to be a climate expert. As in smarter than most everybody else about this. His hockey stick is not even grad-level stuff. He is capable of WAYYY better shit than his submission to the IPCC – which caused so much bullshit.

It would be like Einstein fucking up some basic physics, which coincidentally enough, erroneously leads him to fame and fortune. I am just calling bullshit on a simple math “error” and assuming that Mann knew exactly what he was doing, and what he was getting himself into.

Circumstantial evidence? perhaps. But why would he not release his data or his algorithms for so long? What did he have to hide? Hmmmm… :slight_smile:

[quote]vroom wrote:
Patrick Williams wrote:
A bunch of crap…[/quote]

This was not a quote of mine.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Oh boy vroom. Your last link is relying upon the IPCC report that Mann wrote. Come ON, man!
[/quote]

What are you talking about? If you look at a graph of the recent years, without the handle of the hockey stick, it still rises sharply upward.

There is no need of a hockey stick or anything else, if you just look at current data you can see it.

[quote]Here is why I have a serious hate on for this asshole (relevant quote):

[i]… But it wasnt so. McIntyre and McKitrick obtained part of the program that Mann used, and they found serious problems. Not only does the program not do conventional PCA, but it handles data normalization in a way that can only be described as mistaken.

Now comes the real shocker. This improper normalization procedure tends to emphasize any data that do have the hockey stick shape, and to suppress all data that do not. To demonstrate this effect, McIntyre and McKitrick created some meaningless test data that had, on average, no trends. This method of generating random data is called Monte Carlo analysis, after the famous casino, and it is widely used in statistical analysis to test procedures. When McIntyre and McKitrick fed these random data into the Mann procedure, out popped a hockey stick shape! [/i]

So now matter what data you put into Mann’s program, the hockey stick happens.

Could the writing be any more on the wall than this? Come on buddy, this isn’t just “Oops!”, this is “Oh shit! they caught me!”

Mann is supposed to be a climate expert. As in smarter than most everybody else about this. His hockey stick is not even grad-level stuff. He is capable of WAYYY better shit than his submission to the IPCC – which caused so much bullshit.
[/quote]
I think you are letting your own feelings get in the way of your thinking. I don’t see anyone else making the claims you do. Even the people you quote above do not go so far as to make any accusations.

The guy fucked up. Fine. Throw the hockey stick out. Fine. Now, time to look at the remaining evidence without the hockey stock and stop worrying about the fucking hockey stick. You are focused on this one issue like it actually matters… it doesn’t.

Well, if you want to, fine, but that doesn’t mean it was so. Neither does it make any difference with respect to basic details concerning recent trends or atmospheric composition. What the hockey stick did was provide an alarmist visual cue.

Again, you can throw the hockey stick out, but that doesn’t invalidate the trends currently being seen. Who cares about the hockey stick, it’s over, gone, done with.

I don’t care one way or the other about this guy. This seems more like politics than anything else, criticize the person making the claim, and then the whole concept must be invalidated.

I’m willing to throw away the hockey stick dude, it’s not signficant as anything other than a visual aid. Did you bother to read the EPA site, which certainly did not require a hockey stick graph to provide a nice and reasonable discussion of known and uncertain issues.

[quote]vroom wrote:
I like this stuff. The administration best known for cherry-picking gets to accuse others of cherry-picking, because worrying about the environment is bad for big business and quite costly in economic terms.[/quote]

I agree there is politicizing of this topic by both main parties. I also agree that “big industry” and their friends in office largely don’t want to see the Global Warming Theory proven correct. I also know that environmental activists, most of Hollywood, the mainstream media, and liberally-minded academicians don’t want to see it disproven correct. And none of the above really base their opinions on good science. So cherry-picking all around? Probably.

My bad, no offense/disrespect intended.

To all, the lasts few posts have been much better. Less rhetoric, more lucid substance. This is the kind of dialogue I can respect.

Well done.

[quote]Patrick Williams wrote:
vroom wrote:
Patrick Williams wrote:
A bunch of crap…

This was not a quote of mine.[/quote]

You think?

It’s common around here from time to time to make a joke out of what someone feels is a poor post.

Nobody things you literally said “a bunch of crap”. Do you think people around here were going to mistake it as your own words?

If it will unbunch your skivvies, you’ll see I quoted you when you actually said something worth discussing above.

Please.

This is the politics forum, we don’t always play nice here.

Oh well, enough for one day. I’m sure the furious typing and head scratching I’m doing is contributing to global warming… and if I don’t get some sleep soon I’ll probably dream about it.

Yech.

Good luck with the hurricane season Loth!

[quote]vroom wrote:
What are you talking about? If you look at a graph of the recent years, without the handle of the hockey stick, it still rises sharply upward.

There is no need of a hockey stick or anything else, if you just look at current data you can see it.[/quote]

Dude, Mann made that whole thing, and it’s all wrong. Basically, I am blaming one guy for the Global Warming myth… probably because he is responsible for it.

Fun Fact: it was warmer during the times of Chaucer, as we see in his writings… here is a fun link which mentions this:

http://www.open2.net/sciencetechnologynature/worldaroundus/frying_freezing.html

Conclusion: 1998 was not the warmest it has ever been, which is supposedly shown by Mann. That is retarded.

So if the climate fluctuates all by itself (no industrial revolution required!), how much influence do we really have over it, especially since we have pumped more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere since 1900?

My contention, which is upheld by the data we have so far, is that it is not as much as many think. My hypothesis is that the earth’s climate system is far more adaptive than we give it credit for. There is a complex interplay of many different forces at work in our climate, and increasing one variable will not have disastrous effect – it will have to be adapted to, and WILL be adapted to – as we see in volcanic activity releasing enormous CO2 which is absorbed by the earth’s natural processes – no human intervention required.

And as a side note, I think that I am safe in my assertions that Mann is most likely an asshole. He didn’t just fudge some data, he made sure that the IPCC would see a disaster coming.

Anyway, what does he care? He’s on the speaking circuit now…

[quote]vroom wrote:
Oh well, enough for one day. I’m sure the furious typing and head scratching I’m doing is contributing to global warming… [/quote]
LOL No way man! The friction of your head-scratching is uptaken by the “Molson Ice pre-cooling factor”, so it’s cancelled out.

I don’t need luck, dude… I’ve got skill! No, waitaminute… damn… these are some good mushrooms!

First of all, let’s not get our facts from watching movies. Erin Brockovich had less reality then Star Wars did. Brockovich was nothing but a shyster lawyer who blackmailed a company with fraud and lies, and made a killing.

Second, while nobody considers Love Canal a positive event, the event is so overblown that it is now a complete myth. Cancers, birth defects, people dying left and right, and none of it ever happened. Research has found no health defects whatsoever.

Does anyone realize this is the same paranoia associated with ephadra and pro-hormones? A health care practitioner tried to talk me out of taking ephadra, not knowing that the Tylenol in her medicine cabinet was 9 times more dangerous.

There are a lot of issues where people hear one word, and their position is solidified. Opinions cannot be made just because something sounds right, or is popular. If you are going to cost people hundreds of billions of dollars, put people out of business, and cause the death of millions, you had better be right.

One thing people do not know is that there is a very large group of scientists who disagree with the idea that humans cause global warming, or that global warming is even bad.

Here is a good link about the subject, and a good reason do dislike the PEW statements on the issue which were quoted to state that change usually only happens over centuries or millennia.

Tree rings, sediment samples, and ice cores, have been used to study Earth’s ancient climate record. These proxy records have revealed that history has seen more severe temperature swings than modern times. Researchers have found that, over the course of the millennia, overall temperatures have swung as much as 10 degrees Fahrenheit or more in one decade.

http://www.weather.com/newscenter/specialreports/hotplanet/index.html

vroom. Stop. Stop now. You are embarassing yourself here. You are using proven junk science as your basis, and everyone knows it.

I am even feeling a little sorry for you.

So please - just stop.

[quote]vroom wrote:
LOL.

Look, the ozone layer was a catastrophe in the making, but we took action and now the Earth is recovering.[/quote]

It’s worse now than when the Montreal Protocol went into force:

or we’re “on the cusp”:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/aozone

or even better, the chemicals we use to combat ozone depletion are strong greenhouse gases:

http://www.earthsky.com/shows/show.php?date=20040702

or we don’t really know:

http://toms.gsfc.nasa.gov/news/news.html

18-November-2004

TOMS Calibration Error: The Version 8 algorithm is now used for all TOMS data. For data beginning in year 2000, the calibration has been stabilized relative to NOAA-16 SBUV/2 in the equatorial zone. Because of continuing changes in the optical properties of the front scan mirror that are not well understood, we are now seeing a latitude dependent error that cannot be corrected by a simple calibration correction. The calibration appears to be stable near the equator. But by 50 degrees latitude, there is now a -2% to -4% error in TOMS, a bit larger in the northern hemisphere than in the southern hemisphere. Because of this error, data since 2002 should NOT be used for trend analysis.(emphasis theirs)

But then, I’m cherrypicking to support the preconceived notions that ‘it’s not getting better’, ‘it’s starting to get better’, ‘fixing it might not have been the best idea’, and ‘we don’t know’.

At least there was a cheap and viable alternative to CFCs and no ‘fully halogenated organics’ lobby.

And before bring your ever-so-caustic wit and razor-sharp analytical gray matter to bear on me. Know that I’m in favor of greater fuel efficiency, cleaner vehicles, and independent energy, as well as against ozone holes, just not because of made up things like the “bloody fingerprint of global warming”:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060613/ap_on_sc/polar_bear_cannibalism

“Scientists have an independent obligation to respect and present the truth as they see it,” Al Gore sensibly asserts in his film “An Inconvenient Truth”, showing at Cumberland 4 Cinemas in Toronto since Jun 2. With that outlook in mind, what do world climate experts actually think about the science of his movie?

Professor Bob Carter of the Marine Geophysical Laboratory at James Cook University, in Australia gives what, for many Canadians, is a surprising assessment: “Gore’s circumstantial arguments are so weak that they are pathetic. It is simply incredible that they, and his film, are commanding public attention.”

But surely Carter is merely part of what most people regard as a tiny cadre of “climate change skeptics” who disagree with the “vast majority of scientists” Gore cites?

No; Carter is one of hundreds of highly qualified non-governmental, non-industry, non-lobby group climate experts who contest the hypothesis that human emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2) are causing significant global climate change. “Climate experts” is the operative term here. Why? Because what Gore’s “majority of scientists” think is immaterial when only a very small fraction of them actually work in the climate field.

Even among that fraction, many focus their studies on the impacts of climate change; biologists, for example, who study everything from insects to polar bears to poison ivy. “While many are highly skilled researchers, they generally do not have special knowledge about the causes of global climate change,” explains former University of Winnipeg climatology professor Dr. Tim Ball. “They usually can tell us only about the effects of changes in the local environment where they conduct their studies.”

This is highly valuable knowledge, but doesn’t make them climate change cause experts, only climate impact experts.

So we have a smaller fraction.

But it becomes smaller still. Among experts who actually examine the causes of change on a global scale, many concentrate their research on designing and enhancing computer models of hypothetical futures. “These models have been consistently wrong in all their scenarios,” asserts Ball. “Since modelers concede computer outputs are not “predictions” but are in fact merely scenarios, they are negligent in letting policy-makers and the public think they are actually making forecasts.”

We should listen most to scientists who use real data to try to understand what nature is actually telling us about the causes and extent of global climate change. In this relatively small community, there is no consensus, despite what Gore and others would suggest.

Here is a small sample of the side of the debate we almost never hear:

Appearing before the Commons Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development last year, Carleton University paleoclimatologist Professor Tim Patterson testified, “There is no meaningful correlation between CO2 levels and Earth’s temperature over this [geologic] time frame. In fact, when CO2 levels were over ten times higher than they are now, about 450 million years ago, the planet was in the depths of the absolute coldest period in the last half billion years.” Patterson asked the committee, “On the basis of this evidence, how could anyone still believe that the recent relatively small increase in CO2 levels would be the major cause of the past century’s modest warming?”

Patterson concluded his testimony by explaining what his research and “hundreds of other studies” reveal: on all time scales, there is very good correlation between Earth’s temperature and natural celestial phenomena such changes in the brightness of the Sun.

Dr. Boris Winterhalter, former marine researcher at the Geological Survey of Finland and professor in marine geology, University of Helsinki, takes apart Gore’s dramatic display of Antarctic glaciers collapsing into the sea. “The breaking glacier wall is a normally occurring phenomenon which is due to the normal advance of a glacier,” says Winterhalter. “In Antarctica the temperature is low enough to prohibit melting of the ice front, so if the ice is grounded, it has to break off in beautiful ice cascades. If the water is deep enough icebergs will form.”

Dr. Wibj?rn Karl?n, emeritus professor, Dept. of Physical Geography and Quaternary Geology, Stockholm University, Sweden, admits, “Some small areas in the Antarctic Peninsula have broken up recently, just like it has done back in time. The temperature in this part of Antarctica has increased recently, probably because of a small change in the position of the low pressure systems.”

But Karl?n clarifies that the ‘mass balance’ of Antarctica is positive - more snow is accumulating than melting off. As a result, Ball explains, there is an increase in the ‘calving’ of icebergs as the ice dome of Antarctica is growing and flowing to the oceans. When Greenland and Antarctica are assessed together, “their mass balance is considered to possibly increase the sea level by 0.03 mm/year - not much of an effect,” Karl?n concludes.

The Antarctica has survived warm and cold events over millions of years. A meltdown is simply not a realistic scenario in the foreseeable future.

Gore tells us in the film, “Starting in 1970, there was a precipitous drop-off in the amount and extent and thickness of the Arctic ice cap.” This is misleading, according to Ball: “The survey that Gore cites was a single transect across one part of the Arctic basin in the month of October during the 1960s when we were in the middle of the cooling period. The 1990 runs were done in the warmer month of September, using a wholly different technology.”

Karl?n explains that a paper published in 2003 by University of Alaska professor Igor Polyakov shows that, the region of the Arctic where rising temperature is supposedly endangering polar bears showed fluctuations since 1940 but no overall temperature rise. “For several published records it is a decrease for the last 50 years,” says Karl?n

Dr. Dick Morgan, former advisor to the World Meteorological Organization and climatology researcher at University of Exeter, U.K. gives the details, “There has been some decrease in ice thickness in the Canadian Arctic over the past 30 years but no melt down. The Canadian Ice Service records show that from 1971-1981 there was average, to above average, ice thickness. From 1981-1982 there was a sharp decrease of 15% but there was a quick recovery to average, to slightly above average, values from 1983-1995. A sharp drop of 30% occurred again 1996-1998 and since then there has been a steady increase to reach near normal conditions since 2001.”

Concerning Gore’s beliefs about worldwide warming, Morgan points out that, in addition to the cooling in the NW Atlantic, massive areas of cooling are found in the North and South Pacific Ocean; the whole of the Amazon Valley; the north coast of South America and the Caribbean; the eastern Mediterranean, Black Sea, Caucasus and Red Sea; New Zealand and even the Ganges Valley in India. Morgan explains, “Had the IPCC used the standard parameter for climate change (the 30 year average) and used an equal area projection, instead of the Mercator (which doubled the area of warming in Alaska, Siberia and the Antarctic Ocean) warming and cooling would have been almost in balance.”

Gore’s point that 200 cities and towns in the American West set all time high temperature records is also misleading according to Dr. Roy Spencer, Principal Research Scientist at The University of Alabama in Huntsville. “It is not unusual for some locations, out of the thousands of cities and towns in the U.S., to set all-time records,” he says. “The actual data shows that overall, recent temperatures in the U.S. were not unusual.”

Carter does not pull his punches about Gore’s activism, “The man is an embarrassment to US science and its many fine practitioners, a lot of whom know (but feel unable to state publicly) that his propaganda crusade is mostly based on junk science.”

In April sixty of the world’s leading experts in the field asked Prime Minister Harper to order a thorough public review of the science of climate change, something that has never happened in Canada. Considering what’s at stake - either the end of civilization, if you believe Gore, or a waste of billions of dollars, if you believe his opponents - it seems like a reasonable request."

Y’know, I’m not trying to argue that we are facing an impending disaster. Some of you folks need to seperate what you dislike from what you think other people are talking about.

I do realize that there are adaptive processes, and that things can adjust somewhat. However, it would be foolish to assume there is no danger, just as it would be foolish to assume a calamity is going to happen tomorrow.

That is the biggest takeaway point. Another takeaway point is that there are big money groups that are lined up against the global warming concept, and they are pumping out “studies” of there own to cloud the issue.

It has become a political issue, which makes it hard to see things clearly. And I’ve agreed to that as well, but just realize political issues get played from both sides.

However, I really don’t buy the fact that dumping barrels of chemicals into the ground never happened, or that it never caused problems.

The fact that some things are very hard to prove, as it may take decades for the substances to leak into the water table, does not mean it isn’t dangerous to do such things.

Of course, all lawyers are shysters and no company has ever played fast and loose with dumping practices which have caused issues with public health.

Yeah.

Look, here’s a group claiming that the IPCC is too cautious in there estimates, and they go on to talk about why.

I’m not saying that this is true or that we are in great danger, just that there are a lot of viewpoints out there right now.

Picking a viewpoint because you want it to be true is just as stupid as anything any of you are arguing against.

If you do read the above, they do discuss the weak points of their work, for the various groups performing the studies, the likely arguments and so forth.

This thing isn’t as over as you’d like it to be… but people have been sent back to the drawing boards to get more information and to work on the weaknesses critics have attacked so far.

[quote]vroom wrote:

However, I really don’t buy the fact that dumping barrels of chemicals into the ground never happened, or that it never caused problems.

The fact that some things are very hard to prove, as it may take decades for the substances to leak into the water table, does not mean it isn’t dangerous to do such things.

Of course, all lawyers are shysters and no company has ever played fast and loose with dumping practices which have caused issues with public health.

Yeah.[/quote]

Love Canal and many other sites have been dumping sites for nasty chemicals.

Some have higher rates of sickness, cancer, etc. associated with them and some do not. Love Canal did not have statistically significant rates of disease associated with it.

Clean up of Love Canal has cost a fortune. Dumping that crap was wrong and it should have been handled better.

We need oversight of corporations or that shit will happen everytime.

Unfortunately there are cottage industrys built up by exaggerating these threats.

All the info is not in yet but demonizing CO2 appears to be the worst one yet.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Y’know, I’m not trying to argue that we are facing an impending disaster. Some of you folks need to seperate what you dislike from what you think other people are talking about.
[/quote]

And you should learn how to comprehend the topic being discussed by the title of the thread.

It has nothing to do with like or dislike - although that is a safe little floatie you try and carve out for yourself when in mid-retreat.

The truth is Global warming has not come about by man’s over production of CO2. That is a myth. Another myth is that anyone knows dick about mean global temperature changes. We have only been keeping such records for what - 150 years tops?

You and the rest of the doom and gloomers can sit around and bemoan the evils of man’s destruction of the earth’s sustainability if you want. I have to fuel up my SUV, and drive around looking for a place to dump a bunch of out-dated freon.

Heavythrower,

I am amazed that an article with that viewpoint came out of Canada. Thought most of Canada leaned left. I guess I am clearly ignorant of the political atmosphere “down there”. I can say that, I’m Alaskan. Very interesting.

Thanks.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I have to fuel up my SUV, and drive around looking for a place to dump a bunch of out-dated freon.
[/quote]

Save the gas, the freon’s a vapor at ambient temp. just bleed off the tank slowly in an open space to avoid freeze-burn and/or suffocation.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

It does not take a rocket scientist to know that continuing to pollute the earth will have some consequence, even if that consequence is a lower quality of life for all of us. I for one don’t what to live on a trash heap. I want to see blue skies and not smog. I want to swim in the ocean and not have to get a penicillin shot afterwards because of the pollution.

Just wanting to live in a world that is worth living in should be motivation enough to deal with pollution in a responsible manner.

So why have some people turned this into some kind of pollitical issue where they completely disregard the health of the planet simply because it might be a position held by someone in another party? You would think this would be the one area we all would agree that something needs to be done. That isn’t “fearmongering”. It’s common sense.

It is a political issue. Global warming - or at least man’s role, particularly the U.S.'s role - is nothing but a political issue.

When there is real proof that the U.S. is at fault for the risong global mean temps - then maybe I will change my tune. But I doub’t I will have to learn any new songs in the near future.

As for fear mongering - Algore said 22 years ago that we only had 20 years to change our ways and end evil man’s destruction of the ozone, and rising temps. He now says we have only 10 years left to turn around.

But that’s not fear mongering. Nope - not even a little bit, because Algore is a real scientist.

[/quote]

Hey, stop slamming Al Gore, remember that he invented the Internet don’t you know!