The Field of Physics

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:
I think the most likely way for humans to colonize other worlds would be to develop AI technology to the point AI’s could journey for hundreds of years to another world then prepare it for human life. The AI’s would then need to raise test tube babies and be able to love, educate and otherwise prepare them. The challenges of terraforming another world or genetically modifying humans to live on another world would be staggering but probably more surmountable than living humans making the journey and doing all that.[/quote]

Yeah, but if that was a likely scenario and if there were other intelligent life forms in this here galaxy, this would already have homesteaded the whole galaxy.

Google von Neumann probe, I kid you not. [/quote]

While it’s possible we’re not the only intelligent life in the universe, it’s also possible we’re the most intelligent life in the universe. You also really can’t rely on the reasoning of “if it were possible, someone else would have done it before”. We may end up being the first to homestead the galaxy, even if another lifeform has the technology and capability to do so. The reasoning just doesn’t add up.[/quote]

Whether that’s true or not, we will never know. [/quote]

Well, if they land tomorrow…[/quote]

Then they started many thousands of years ago…[/quote]

Or they found a mechanism to bend the space-time continuum.

[quote]Mutu wrote:

[quote]NAUn wrote:
My phd research is in applied physics although I’m a materials science and engineering student. To Dr. Matt I’m probably the worst kind of imposter :wink: I work on correlated electron systems research, so I’m about half a century behind in terms of theory.

Dr Matt, I’m curious what evidence you refer to w.r.t. extra dimensions? Intuitively I’m inclined to agree with you on this. I understand that we don’t have any rigorous mathematical reason not to accept that they are at least possible, but beyond the mathematical requirements of various theories beyond the Standard Model what sort of evidence is there? Your patience and willingness to explain ideas on here is nothing short of remarkable.

Also, beyond the prospect of gathering further data about the particle-potentially-known-as-Higgs’, what more may we gain from the LHC? Do you think there is good reason to expect relevant information on supersymmetry?[/quote]

There will always be new information to gather from the LHC; plus, if we abandon the LHC where do we go next for studying sub atomic particle physics?

The Higgs like particle that has been found is an amazing breakthrough, but I find quantum mechanics infinitely more interesting…the fact that small particles can teleport, tunnel, entangle, exist in more than one place, and change by being observed tells us a lot about the fundamental properties of all matter and as such, reality itself, don’t you think?[/quote]

Of course I’m not suggesting abandoning the LHC, I was asking from the perspective that some of the next massive (no pun intended) leaps in scientific understanding might not occur until we are able to explore much higher energy levels. This is one of the main criticisms (unfairly I think) of string theories. It’s not the theorists’ fault that the strings they propose don’t conveniently fit into our current experimental capabilities. That doesn’t mean what continues isn’t important. Indeed, it may be possible that we are able more precisely measure certain interactions that reveal our understanding is as accurate as we had thought. I don’t know though. That’s why I asked :wink:

As for quantum mechanics, it is amazing, I agree. It is mathematically sublime. As for what philosophical value can be gained from its understanding, I am quite hesitant to speculate. Until one is really comfortable manipulating the mathematical expressions that govern those bizarre behaviors you mentioned, I think it should be considered nothing more than entertainment and not really based in quantum mechanics. One can’t say “quantum mechanics tells us this,” if he doesn’t know the language. Otherwise it’s just “this guy over here, usually looking to sell books or tv shows, tells us this, which in all likelihood is an intentionally intellectually dishonest interpretation meant only for entertainment and profit.” I’m certainly not that comfortable with it. I would like to point out though that I think it’s important to recognize that these weird fundamental interactions do not dismiss the “classical” elements of reality that we experience. It’s amusing that our world is emergent out of this unintuitive and decidedly strange rules, but still, here we are. I think most people take the “shut up and calculate” approach to what quantum mechanics “means.”

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
Well, if they land tomorrow…[/quote]

… we shall be at their mercy, completely.

On this topic, it’s hard to argue with Hawking’s position.

[/quote]
Slumped over sideways in a wheel chair?
[/quote]

not funny.

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]NAUn wrote:
My phd research is in applied physics although I’m a materials science and engineering student. To Dr. Matt I’m probably the worst kind of imposter :wink: I work on correlated electron systems research, so I’m about half a century behind in terms of theory.

Dr Matt, I’m curious what evidence you refer to w.r.t. extra dimensions? Intuitively I’m inclined to agree with you on this. I understand that we don’t have any rigorous mathematical reason not to accept that they are at least possible, but beyond the mathematical requirements of various theories beyond the Standard Model what sort of evidence is there? Your patience and willingness to explain ideas on here is nothing short of remarkable.

Also, beyond the prospect of gathering further data about the particle-potentially-known-as-Higgs’, what more may we gain from the LHC? Do you think there is good reason to expect relevant information on supersymmetry?[/quote]

Most of the evidence is just circumstantial, like anomalies in various experiments that are outside of the margins of error, that are best explained by extra (not necessarily “higher”) dimensions. I will try and dig up some studies later when I have more time. There is nothing concrete, we won’t have the energy capabilities to really test that stuff until we get the Very Large Hadron Collider built which will take some time to finish since we haven’t even decided on a location for it.
[/quote]

I’d very much appreciate seeing that although I don’t think I have the mathematical chops to truly understand. Anomalous behavior is frequently the most interesting but also the most likely to be swept under the rug, in my experience.

[quote]Marlind wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:
I think the most likely way for humans to colonize other worlds would be to develop AI technology to the point AI’s could journey for hundreds of years to another world then prepare it for human life. The AI’s would then need to raise test tube babies and be able to love, educate and otherwise prepare them. The challenges of terraforming another world or genetically modifying humans to live on another world would be staggering but probably more surmountable than living humans making the journey and doing all that.[/quote]

Yeah, but if that was a likely scenario and if there were other intelligent life forms in this here galaxy, this would already have homesteaded the whole galaxy.

Google von Neumann probe, I kid you not. [/quote]

While it’s possible we’re not the only intelligent life in the universe, it’s also possible we’re the most intelligent life in the universe. You also really can’t rely on the reasoning of “if it were possible, someone else would have done it before”. We may end up being the first to homestead the galaxy, even if another lifeform has the technology and capability to do so. The reasoning just doesn’t add up.[/quote]

Whether that’s true or not, we will never know. [/quote]

Well, if they land tomorrow…[/quote]

Then they started many thousands of years ago…[/quote]

Or they found a mechanism to bend the space-time continuum.
[/quote]

The whole thing? That would be a feat to behold.

[quote]NAUn wrote:

Also, beyond the prospect of gathering further data about the particle-potentially-known-as-Higgs’, what more may we gain from the LHC? Do you think there is good reason to expect relevant information on supersymmetry?[/quote]

This is a good question, and one I was planning on talking about anyway. What more can we gain from the LHC? Who knows. The whole point of scientific advancement is to answer questions and figure out things that no one knows. That is one of the risks inherent in any scientific undertaking. We may come up with a bunch of amazing data or we may come up with nothing. There is no real way of knowing. If there were, there would never have been a need to develop the sciences into fields separate from philosophy. All we can do is design experiments to test hypotheses, we cannot know the outcome beforehand. Sometimes the results lead to major advancements in a particular field and sometimes they don’t. You should keep in mind also that just because we have likely found the higgs boson, we have not finished with all the experiments we can do at the energy levels of the LHC. There are many experiments planned for the rest of this year and after it goes back online in 2014 after the upgrades are done.

Now for supersymmetry. Now that we may have found the Higgs Boson, one of the next main problems that we need to solve for the Standard model is the hierarchy problem. I am going to try not to get too technical here, but it will be hard. The hierarchy problem specific to the higgs boson is that according to the standard model, we would expect the mass of a higgs boson to be closer to the plank mass as shown through the solution to the Lagrangian. This difference between the experimentally determined values and the theoretical values needs to be explained, and supersymmetry is considered to be one of the best solutions to this problem. It requires that for certain types of bosons, there exist complementary fermions that accounts for this discrepancy. We still need to find direct experimental evidence for supersymmetry, which is expected to happen around 1 TeV, so it is possible that the LHC can provide this evidence since it operates at higher energy levels then that. The problem is designing the experiments to get the data we need to prove the phenomenon. We have no way of knowing if we will be able to do that.

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
Well, if they land tomorrow…[/quote]

… we shall be at their mercy, completely.

On this topic, it’s hard to argue with Hawking’s position.

[/quote]
Slumped over sideways in a wheel chair?
[/quote]

not funny.[/quote]

:stuck_out_tongue:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]NAUn wrote:

Also, beyond the prospect of gathering further data about the particle-potentially-known-as-Higgs’, what more may we gain from the LHC? Do you think there is good reason to expect relevant information on supersymmetry?[/quote]

This is a good question, and one I was planning on talking about anyway. What more can we gain from the LHC? Who knows. The whole point of scientific advancement is to answer questions and figure out things that no one knows. That is one of the risks inherent in any scientific undertaking. We may come up with a bunch of amazing data or we may come up with nothing. There is no real way of knowing. If there were, there would never have been a need to develop the sciences into fields separate from philosophy. All we can do is design experiments to test hypotheses, we cannot know the outcome beforehand. Sometimes the results lead to major advancements in a particular field and sometimes they don’t. You should keep in mind also that just because we have likely found the higgs boson, we have not finished with all the experiments we can do at the energy levels of the LHC. There are many experiments planned for the rest of this year and after it goes back online in 2014 after the upgrades are done.

Now for supersymmetry. Now that we may have found the Higgs Boson, one of the next main problems that we need to solve for the Standard model is the hierarchy problem. I am going to try not to get too technical here, but it will be hard. The hierarchy problem specific to the higgs boson is that according to the standard model, we would expect the mass of a higgs boson to be closer to the plank mass as shown through the solution to the Lagrangian. This difference between the experimentally determined values and the theoretical values needs to be explained, and supersymmetry is considered to be one of the best solutions to this problem. It requires that for certain types of bosons, there exist complementary fermions that accounts for this discrepancy. We still need to find direct experimental evidence for supersymmetry, which is expected to happen around 1 TeV, so it is possible that the LHC can provide this evidence since it operates at higher energy levels then that. The problem is designing the experiments to get the data we need to prove the phenomenon. We have no way of knowing if we will be able to do that.
[/quote]

In other words, if it is what you think it may possibly be, then you are just getting started, not finished…
I am super curious what this will yield if it is higgs-boson. My prediction, and I don’t think I am going to far out, is that it will cause more questions than it answers.

What I am interested in is if the answers will match the predictions.

Get busy Dr. Matt, inquiring minds want to know.

[quote]chillain wrote:

[quote]Mutu wrote:
The Higgs like particle that has been found is an amazing breakthrough, but I find quantum mechanics infinitely more interesting…the fact that small particles can teleport, tunnel, entangle, exist in more than one place, and change by being observed tells us a lot about the fundamental properties of all matter and as such, reality itself, don’t you think?[/quote]

If the quantum realm even roughly corresponded with our experiences in the wide, wide macroscopic world, I could agree.

But it don’t so I don’t.

[/quote]

Um, the macroscopic world is build on the elementary particles studied in quantum mechanics so I do not really understand what you are trying to say. It is only by studying the quantum realm that we can fully understand the macroscopic universe that we can “see.”

[quote]pat wrote:

In other words, if it is what you think it may possibly be, then you are just getting started, not finished… [/quote]

The discovery of the higgs boson was never going to be the be all end all of physics research, it is just one piece of a puzzle that we will likely never fully figure out.

[quote]
I am super curious what this will yield if it is higgs-boson. My prediction, and I don’t think I am going to far out, is that it will cause more questions than it answers. [/quote]

It is not so much that it will lead to more questions then answers, it is that the confirmation of the Higgs boson will tell us which questions that we already have are invalid, which ones deserve more thought and time, and which ones need modifying. Thanks to all the different hypothesis put out by theoretical physicists, including myself since I do more theoretical work these days then experimental work, we have no shortage of valid questions that need answering.

[quote]
What I am interested in is if the answers will match the predictions. [/quote]

Occam’s Razor is usually a good principle to follow (not always though). The answers will usually be fairly close to what the Standard model predicts in these cases.

To anyone whose questions I may have missed:

I have done my best to go back through and answer all the questions asked since this thread began, but I am sure I have missed some. If I did not answer anyone’s questions or my answer was not sufficient, pleas ask it again and I will get to it.

Do you ever have a hard time constructing a good, minimally fallible question?

[quote]spar4tee wrote:
Do you ever have a hard time constructing a good, minimally fallible question?[/quote]

Do you mean grammatically fallible? If so, then yes. Despite living in the US for almost 20 years now, my spoken English is not as great as it should be.

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]spar4tee wrote:
Do you ever have a hard time constructing a good, minimally fallible question?[/quote]

Do you mean grammatically fallible? If so, then yes. Despite living in the US for almost 20 years now, my spoken English is not as great as it should be.[/quote]
LOL what’s your nation of origin?

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]spar4tee wrote:
Do you ever have a hard time constructing a good, minimally fallible question?[/quote]

Do you mean grammatically fallible? If so, then yes. Despite living in the US for almost 20 years now, my spoken English is not as great as it should be.[/quote]
LOL what’s your nation of origin?[/quote]

Soviet Union

EDIT: Now, Russia. Meant to put that in originally but forgot.

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:

[quote]Mutu wrote:
The Higgs like particle that has been found is an amazing breakthrough, but I find quantum mechanics infinitely more interesting…the fact that small particles can teleport, tunnel, entangle, exist in more than one place, and change by being observed tells us a lot about the fundamental properties of all matter and as such, reality itself, don’t you think?[/quote]

If the quantum realm even roughly corresponded with our experiences in the wide, wide macroscopic world, I could agree.

But it don’t so I don’t.

[/quote]

Um, the macroscopic world is build on the elementary particles studied in quantum mechanics so I do not really understand what you are trying to say. It is only by studying the quantum realm that we can fully understand the macroscopic universe that we can “see.”
[/quote]

Admittedly, it was a silly comment, Dr Matt.

Half the time, I’m posting stuff of which I do have firsthand experience/knowledge and the other half is solely to spark further discussion. (obv, that latter can sometimes toe the “trolling” line and this was one of those instances)

Dr mAtt,

What do u think of popular science writers like Brian Greene’s books? I read his books and they are my only sources to physics :frowning:

[quote]digitalairair wrote:
Dr mAtt,

What do u think of popular science writers like Brian Greene’s books? I read his books and they are my only sources to physics :([/quote]

Unfortunately, those books are not much better then science fiction. The basic descriptions of the theories are okay, but when they talk about the potential real applications that could arise from things like string theory they grossly misrepresent the information. Overall, I would say they are better then nothing since physics education among the general population is horrible, just don’t buy into the stuff they talk about like teleportation and time travel for humans, those things are highly unlikely. I wouldn’t read anything by Hawking.

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]NAUn wrote:

Also, beyond the prospect of gathering further data about the particle-potentially-known-as-Higgs’, what more may we gain from the LHC? Do you think there is good reason to expect relevant information on supersymmetry?[/quote]

This is a good question, and one I was planning on talking about anyway. What more can we gain from the LHC? Who knows. The whole point of scientific advancement is to answer questions and figure out things that no one knows. That is one of the risks inherent in any scientific undertaking. We may come up with a bunch of amazing data or we may come up with nothing. There is no real way of knowing. If there were, there would never have been a need to develop the sciences into fields separate from philosophy. All we can do is design experiments to test hypotheses, we cannot know the outcome beforehand. Sometimes the results lead to major advancements in a particular field and sometimes they don’t. You should keep in mind also that just because we have likely found the higgs boson, we have not finished with all the experiments we can do at the energy levels of the LHC. There are many experiments planned for the rest of this year and after it goes back online in 2014 after the upgrades are done.
[/quote]

Certainly, I understand and appreciate the impetus for experiments. However, there is a wide gap between “we can’t really know” and “we have no idea.” My question was about which hypotheses physicists are looking forward to investigating using the LHC beyond the existence of the Higgs boson. I can see how my phrasing was imprecise and misleading. Although I feel first-hand the frustration that we have no way of knowing how experiments turn out lol.

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
Now for supersymmetry. Now that we may have found the Higgs Boson, one of the next main problems that we need to solve for the Standard model is the hierarchy problem. I am going to try not to get too technical here, but it will be hard. The hierarchy problem specific to the higgs boson is that according to the standard model, we would expect the mass of a higgs boson to be closer to the plank mass as shown through the solution to the Lagrangian. This difference between the experimentally determined values and the theoretical values needs to be explained, and supersymmetry is considered to be one of the best solutions to this problem. It requires that for certain types of bosons, there exist complementary fermions that accounts for this discrepancy. We still need to find direct experimental evidence for supersymmetry, which is expected to happen around 1 TeV, so it is possible that the LHC can provide this evidence since it operates at higher energy levels then that. The problem is designing the experiments to get the data we need to prove the phenomenon. We have no way of knowing if we will be able to do that.
[/quote]
Thanks, the “hierarchy problem” is a great point of reference to dig deeper.

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]Swolegasm wrote:
I will say one thing for physics, your guys ability to hype the shit out of things is quite impressive.[/quote]
I haven’t seen that from pioneering bodies[/quote]

Ach, come on, Hawkins book was pure pandering to the masses.

A cheap shot if you will.

Anyone with an IQ of a mere 140 has certainly grasped the gist of it?

Possibly?

In short, it was a species of literary slumming. [/quote]
I haven’t read it[/quote]

Then, please do.

It is a very educational experience when someone tries to be as simple and straightforward as he can and yet you have no idea what he is talking about.

Of course, if we must force blame on anyone, it is him, for failing to bridge the gap, but that is hardly a consolation. [/quote]

In fairness to Hawking and other mainstream physics authors, keep in mind that they are writing about topics that most actual physicists spend over a decade in school and several years or more in postdoc research before they really have a grasp of the topic at hand and it is only possible to simplify it so much before you lose too much of the material. It is pretty much impossible to take topics like string theory, quantum mechanics, and astrophysics and explain them to people with with little to no formal education in physics and math. If people buy a book on those topics and expect to fully grasp a significant portion of the material are kind of kidding themselves.

I am not trying to sound conceited here, either, this works for almost all fields. I wouldn’t pick up a book, even an overly simplified one written for lay people, on theoretical computer science or advanced topics in biology or chemistry that are not covered until graduate study in that field and expect to understand more then a fraction of the information being presented to me.[/quote]

You are being too modest. Advanced topics in physics really are much harder to grasp than advanced topics in biology, chemistry and computer science.
[/quote]
A lot of scientific fields begin overlapping with physics when you get to an advanced graduate level. Many times, research in different scientific fields involves overcoming physical limitations or trying to better understand physics from a practical point of view as it pertains to your particular problem. Hell, that’s all my area of EE is.