Sure, and so what exactly is the problem? Which is not to say that there isn’t a problem for them - I work with a guy who doesn’t carry a diagnosis, but he and I agree that there’s something spectrum-y about him. So we’re working on social stuff along with the impact of a mother he describes as “a basket full of crazy,” which may be the cause of his social difficulties. He’s definitely odd. But some people find people like me odd and appear to feel assaulted by friendliness in grocery store lines and such. Do we need trainings on dealing with friendly, outgoing people? I work with people like me, too. I have a patient who got kicked out of a “cookbook club,” whatever that is. I’ve been frozen out of a book club, too. If she and I want to be accepted into groups of low-energy, humorless people, we’re going to have to make changes. Should those changes be to start a movement and gather money to train bookclubs to be more inclusive of us? Or should we just shake it off? She’s a teacher and I’m a therapist, both of which jobs require tremendous social energy and desire for connection. You’re pursuing academia, where, like your professors, you’ll presumably thrive.
I don’t necessarily disagree, but I do think you think of “leader” as being in charge of the things you care more about as a male. I absolutely expect to lead Christmas, for example. I lead the home, and I will fight over children and manners and what constitutes “roughhousing.” (The dog, too.)
I’m very comfortable being led in the things I have no interest in leading. However, on many of the standard “conflict” issues, we’re completely aligned. We agree about money. Sex, total agreement. Our blended family can occasionally cause sparks, but in general (the big picture) we agree. He can lead away about any of those things because I trust him, as well as the yard, cars, and other non-kitchen things. I don’t care when it’s time for a new roof. Just let me know!
Things did not go as smoothly in my first marriage.
Are you my therapist, and this whole “EmilyQ” thing is just a guise that you’ve managed to maintain for like 15 years, or since you were like 13?
We’ve been playing “Spectrum or Trauma?” for about a year now. Our current take is “your state is your state, but this may give some insight into some core behaviors”.
CEOs create structure and framework, then delegate process management. VPs are still leaders, however. Granted marriages are more egalitarian than corporations, and duties are shared in one way or another, but this is how I see it. And it seems to be the natural flow. Pick the wall color, choose the cleaning schedule, but do it in a maintained house that is structurally sound. To play off your scenarios.
The problem is that a company needs employees that actually do stuff.
Im sure there are plenty of great men out there “creating structure and frame work”, but in the relationships I have seen go south (an important distinction, Im not saying every relationship is like the follow scenario) the following is usually what happens
The man has a job. That is his main involvement in “creating structure and framework”. He provides and manages the financial resources for the family. (No small thing, Im not brushing that off). Occasionally involved in “the fun stuff” (that the mom has set up) or will make a meal, but generally speaking the time spent not at the job is generally considered his free time (by him) and not to be disturbed
The woman is then in charge of literally everything else for the household, while often having a job herself because the guys single income doesnt provide enough. The woman handles all the kids school stuff, drops the off and picks them up, makes sure their home work is done, does all the grocery shopping after figuring out what food they need, makes them breakfast/lunch/dinner, if they are sick arranges the doctors visit, arranges and transports to all the hang outs and activities the kids have (its a bit trope that men dont even know their kids doctors name or the names of their friends of their parents names, or hell even sometimes their kids birthdates). Does all the laundry for everyone to make sure they all have clean clothes to wear and cleans the house so everyone has a clean home to live in. Hell she is even managing HIS health and arranging and taking him to HIS doctor appointments and managing his medication regiment (I see this every day in my job, lots of guys dont even know what meds they are on but the wife can rattle off his entire schedule)
Which is to say, All the day to day drudgery of parenthood, marriage, and life is “womens work” and all the husband has to do is bring home the check and occasionally play a round of catch before he goes and plays call of duty for 3 hours with the boys
Of the two, which is the one “providing structure and framework” ?
Ill expand on how I incorporate the above ideas in my own life later
In my experience and view, my wife takes on quite a bit because she wants to. It’s an extension of her nurturing self. Sometimes to the point it’s annoying and a point of friction.
Broadly speaking, fathers should be involved in their children’s lives. And should take care of themselves (and need the space to do so). Much of what you’re pointing out could be framed as overbearing in many relationships.
But yes, men are tasked with creating and holding the framework.
That sounds a bit ambiguous to me, My question would be what does that actually look like in practice? ie What actual work or task is being done to “hold the framework”
I think it is ambiguous by nature. I would summarize that she follows my directive, broadly and generally. I’m not aggressive with her, not demanding, not abusive. She just naturally follows my lead and “folds in”, and folds the laundry how she wants to.
And I do see this as the natural order of things. I’m still present for dinner, activities with our daughter, vet runs et cetera. Our daughter is currently learning guitar and we practice together. We are working on the Frozen theme by Christmas. We signed her up for taekwondo and I joined the adult class to do the belt progression with her. We have two annual father/daughter dances. The city outs one on for fun, and her dance class includes one in an annual recital. She asks me meaningful questions and we connect. I would challenge that your highlighted issues, while specific, are not broadly accurate.
High level and maybe ambiguous, my wife just “manages” within the broader framework of location, trajectory of life, momentum towards it in general. And meaningfully.
I tend to hold final say, I control overall budget (bills, short term planning, long term investing et cetera) but give her an expense account you could say…. wear the pants in general.
But she does choose the laundry detergent. And likes doing it. And she helped choose which house we bought in the town I chose (and got her buy-in for).
Divorce laws are insanely unfair and i feel they have corrupted the once beautiful institution of marriage.
Your solution is to hope you’re doing enough that you dont get fucked in divorce because she won’t want to leave. This is a one sided burden that should not exist.
I’m going to leave my argument at this because I’m certain i won’t be more reasonable in further responses. I was losing my shit last week at 10mg tren daily, now I’m at 35.
I agree with lots of that, and in fact our households probably look very similar in that regard. My wife handles things ABC and I handle things XYZ, we help each other with those things when applicable and let the other person handle it independently when it isnt (I dont ask my wife what ETF to invest in and she doesnt ask me what laundry detergent to buy… But we both go grocery shopping/do kid activities/plan things, etc…).
My original post was mostly talking about failed relationships dynamics. You dont sound like your are the absent, uninvolved, neglectful wallet in the above picture.
Overbearing or burdensome would depend on the individual. Is she taking the lead because she likes it done a certain way, or has the husband shoveled all the responsibility onto her with her having no say in the matter. Outwardly it looks the same but the dynamics on the inside are much different.
Your description fits a chunk of the boomer fathers I grew up around and described to a T. Utterly checked out and glued to a screen after arriving home. The fathers I see these days are far more involved, as I’ve said.
Pic is one of a few I took this beach-house weekend I mentioned @Njord . Bro-in-law and my son pictured. Our nature talk in this thread came do mind. It was so peaceful out there.
I don’t light fires I can’t control at deer camp either.
I also don’t agree there is a one-sided burden. My wife could leave me and have a house and money, or push me to leave her if she really wanted to take advantage of a system, but doesn’t want to lose me. This is the lost art and it’s a two-way street.
Agreed. And the middle is ambiguous, with different lines for every relationship.
I’m definitely not an uninvolved wallet, but we do argue about household chores some. And it gets a little ridiculous to me. For example, when I load a dishwasher I leave space between dishes for effective rinsing. Sometimes this means two loads, and at the end of the day one may carry over. My wife loads shit up and banks on heat to do the dirty work. I don’t care enough to fight it. She does. So I let her know she can have my help my way or do it herself. She chooses herself and usually depending on her cycle will either be chill or act like a victim who never gets any help. Ever. And we do experience some dysfunction here. And I let it burn with my original offer still standing. And she does the dishes
I would say her overbearing response is breaking against calm structure. And folding in. Then I pay the water bill.
Ok. So what I read here is that you know how to do the dishes correctly and rationally, and she doesn’t.
Good work man. . You can set the example, but you can’t force it.
Yeah. Thats the emotional component of the task overwhelming her.
When I do kitchen stuff, which is one of my favorite things, I put on some tunes as a way of farming out my feels. Let the tunes set the tone.
If I don’t, all the little voices gang up and I get angry and everything sucks, And I don’t even have a vagina.
This post was facetious, but very real and accurate to my own thoughts & feels on sharing these tasks. Especially the part about doing the dishes the right way.
Absolutely. Everybody has little triggers. I happily offer my support, and understand the value of meeting her where she’s at too. But this is just one our stupid little incongruous things and I’m not going to be told how to do the dishes should she accept my offer to do them. It’s the whole overbearing thing, but ultimately works out. And she knows my offer stands.
Yeah, I think every couple has those things. I try to make clear to mine that I do things the way I do them, and she’s free to do what she does, how she does. And that while I appreciate her method, I also appreciate mine.
I think these things are minor differences, but couples get derailed when any number of these things become insufferable, start keeping score, and refuse to understand or acknowledge those differences.
Like, I do fries in the air fryer. It took me a few tries to get dialed in, then they’ve been great since. Now, burgers & fries takes about 15 minutes total, and we’re eating.
She still insists on regular baking- also fine with me. But then she didn’t want me using the air fryer either, cuz one time they were too crispy.
Thats when I had to mae clear that I’m not going to change that, and furthermore- I’m way better at all of this stuff than her. Hands down, no comparison- which she also agrees with.
Then I explained the whole system, and Why everything turns out so good, and quickly.
Now we both understand each others processes, and respect them for what they are- the one person doing something for the other (all).
But when those differences accumulate and fester, there’s gonna be problems.
. You can set the example, but you can’t force it.