my coach (IFPA Pro RJ Perkins) told me that fasted cardio doesn’t offer anything more over having a small meal before cardio when all said and done.
I’ve heard Layne Norton echo this.
I don’t mean just because two people I look up to recommend something doesn’t mean it is the end all be all… But Layne is a pretty smart dude.
BCAAs are converted into glucose/glycogen, which if your cutting and lowering carbs this will undermine that unless maybe you go extremely low. I would think high intensity would burn that glucose off but then how many carbs are consumed afterwards. In fat loss terms only, you want to burn your body fat…not glucose for energy. It takes a lot to actually burn significant muscle unless you’re a triathlete, lol. Proper protein intake should prevent that. I guess it depends on your goals. Use Keto stixs to see if you are in or close to Ketosis. If you are… you’re burning fat, if not you’re carbs are either too high or protein is too low.
Technically, if you’re spilling ketones into your urine and seeing them on your ketostix, then you’re not “burning” much fat. You’re converting it to ketone bodies, but the energy in the ketones is being wasted. If I remember this correctly, the key issue is the generation of coenzyme-A. Co-A is needed to process the ketone bodies in the mitochondria. If you’re not making enough Co-A, you won’t “burn” the fat, just excrete the ketone bodies.
Supplementing with pantothenic acid can improve Co-A production, and some l-carnitine can help shuttle the ketone bodies into the mitochondria.
it’s a fascinating subject. This article A Stone that Kills two Birds: How Pantothenic Acid Unveils the Mysteries of Acne Vulgaris and Obesity - Lit-Hung Leung. M.D. discusses the mechanism of lipid metabolism. The first half shows how faulty lipid metabolism can cause acne, and the second half of the article addresses specifically fat loss / weight loss. It’s a good read. (The l-carnitine is addressed in a different article that suggests the dose of pantothenic acid can be greatly reduced.)
This is true when you are in the early stags of a ketogenic diet, the so-called ‘fat adaptation’ stage. That’s why ketostix are really only useful for the first month or so of a keto diet. As you get more into the diet, blood monitoring is a much more effective measurement. This tends to show a gradual reduction in ketone levels as the body becomes more fuel-efficient, so I wouldn’t worry about over-production of ketones being a sign that your not in fat-burning mode.
In relation to some of the original post, I have used the ketone meter to test blood 30m after ingesting 20g hydrolysed casein with an additional 5g EAAs and it produced a reading of 0.3ml which is still mild ketosis. So ingesting such proteins doesn’t appear to impact on fat burning mode (in me, at least).
Leucine Insulin Response
It does stimulate an Insulin Response. However, there nothing that I have found that stipulates the extent of the response or the duration.
More on that in a minute.
Little Effect, If Any
As the saying goes, “The poison is in the dose”. That meaning consuming that amount of BCAA over a 10 hour period elicits virtually no effect in regard to triggering insulin release.
With that said, that amount of BCAA consumed over a 10 hour period does NOT elicit an anabolic effect, either.
Dr Layne Norton
PhD Nutrition/Pro Natural Bodybuilder/Powerlifter
As we know, Leucine is an "Anabolic Trigger necessary for building or maintaining muscle mass (mTOR/Mammalian Target of Rapamycin).
Between 2.5 to 4.0 grams of Leucine are necessary to trip the “Anabolic Switch”.
Consumption of 3.5g leucine, 1.75g isoleucine, 1.75g valine in one shot will trigger the anabolic response.
Consumption of 3.5g leucine, 1.75g isoleucine, 1.75g valine ensures no anabolic response is going to occur. The dosage consumed over a 10 hour period is NOT enough to evoke mTOR.
Secondly, research indicates that BCAA taken along are less effective than when combined with complete proteins…
BCAAs stimulate post-workout muscle gain - but need help
“…ingestion of BCAAs alone may not be the optimal nutritional regimen to stimulate a maximal muscle protein synthesis response to resistance exercise training.”
However, BCAA consumed along my be effective when ingested between meals, approximately 2.5 hour after one meal and 2.5 before the next meal
This has to do with…
The “Refractory Period” of Eating
Norton’s research found the bodybuilding dogma regarding eating every three hours is ineffective for Muscle Protein Synthesis.
Consuming protein approximately every 4 - 5 hours is optimal for Muscle Protein Synthesis.
Sponge Example
The ability of the body to optimally absorb protein is similar to a sponge.
If the sponge is dry, it is able to absorb more.
If the sponge is soaking wet, it cannot absorb any more.
The same analogy applies with Muscle Protein Synthesis; you are best able to absorb and utilize amino acids when the body is ready to “Soak them up.” To reiterate, the optimal period for optimal Muscle Protein Synthesis is approximately with meals every 4 - 5 hours apart.
However, one theory indicates that mTOR can be stimulated between meals; increasing Muscle Protein Synthesis.
BCAA Between Meals
Base on Norton research, it appears that BCAA ingested 2.5 after a meal and 2.5 before the next meal may enable you to spike the mTOR Muscle Protein Synthesis process.
The BCAA Spike appears to immediately turn on the “mTOR Anabolic Trigger”.
BCAA’s Shooting Star Effect
Due to how quickly BCAA are absorbed and exit the system, they appear to Spike the “mTOR Anabolic Process”, at least in theory.
Intermittent Fasting
Research shows that during Intermittent Fasting hormones (epinephrine, nor-epinephrine, growth hormone, cortisol and dopamine) utilize ketones/body fat; protecting and preserving muscle mass.
Intermittent Fast up to 72 hours have demonstrated the process of utilizing ketones and preserving muscle mass occurs. After 72 hours, the body will begin to break down muscle mass for energy, “Gluconeogenesis”.
However, the “Sweet Spot” for Intermittent Fasting (NO Food) appears to be between 18 to 24 hours, dependent on the research.
Recommendation
Based on the research, I don’t see the need to consume BCAA during an Intermittent Fast. It may not hurt the Fast but it certainly doesn’t help it.
I have a “Black or White” perspective on this and go by the literal definition…
Fasting means NO food.
BCAA are a food. So, NO BCAAs.
Now the but…
Martin Berkhan and Dr John Berardi
Berkhan (Lean Gains) and Dr John Berardi (PhD Nutritionist, owner of Precision Nutrition Consulting) are two of the smartest guys in the field; both successful Intermittent Fasting experts.
Both advocate BCAA during Intermittent Fasting.
Summary
a) Mixing BCAA in water and drinking them over a 10 hour period isn’t going to produce an Insulin Response.
b) It will not elicit the “mTOR Process” of maintaining or building muscle.
a) It means NO food. BCAAs are a food. Thus, consuming BCAA means you are breaking he fast.
b) Base on research, Fasting up to 72 hours utilize ketones and preserves muscle mass.
c) The Jury: It is still out on if breaking the Fast with BCAA is necessary or is needed.
Kenny Croxdale
Protein required about half the insulin of carbs, over about twice the time frame to manage. For a type 1 diabetic on a ketogenic diet, 20 grams of protein would require them to raise daily insulin by about 5%, and circulating insulin by about 50% over a period of about 4 hours after consuming them. I think that total daily insulin level is more important for ketosis than individual meals because it takes time to shut off nutritional ketosis. If anything, if you need x amount of protein in a day, you will be less likely to turn off ketosis, and you will release less insulin if you consume that protein prior to exercising, especially in a fasted state where muscles may be depleted of amino acids, glycogen and fatty acids and so will require less insulin to get into muscle cells.
An issue though is that fasted versus unfasted aerobic activity probably doesn’t matter for people in nutritional ketosis. For people on normal diets, since insulin is low, and fat is being released into the bloodstream, it may upregulate enzymes that burn fat, and downregulated enzymes that burn glucose and break down protein. Otherwise, fasted aerobic activity really has no additional benefit over non-fasted. The calorie balance will be the same. For someone in nutritional ketosis, they are already absolutely maxed out on upregulating the fat burning mechanisms.
Will having protein before fasted activity prevent the benefits in non keto adapted people? Again, 20 grams of protein is going to raise daily insulin minimally over the period of activity.
I might be more concerned that exercising on large amounts of just protein will upregulate enzymes that turn protein into glucose-making you more prone to waste protein as a fuel source metabolically.
Wanted to add that type 1 diabetics generally need half the insulin per gram of protein as per gram of carbs. Some of this is due to protein turning into glucose and some is due to protein opportunistically using insulin to get into cells even though it can get in by other mechanisms. The protein tends to require half the insulin AND over twice the time frame (about 4 hours) when taken alone. This means axiomatically that a non type 1diabetic will have about half the insulin release per gram of protein as per gram of carbs to maintain euglycemia. It also suggests that blood amino acid levels do not fall to baseline until at least 4 hours after taking in protein.
A few quick calculation on standard insulin dosing tables (including recommendations I have read from type 1 diabetics who follow a nutritional Keto sis diet suggests that insulin levels would only rise by about 50% for 3-5 hours after consuming 20 grams of protein. People in nutritional Ketosis actually are moderately insulin resistant on a per gram basis though their total insulin output per day is only about 1/4 that of a healthy person who consumes maintenance calories at non-nutritional ketosis levels. Once someone is above the level of nutritional ketosis, insulin needs rise far less than in proportion to carb consumption. 100 gram carb per day eaters my need 70% as much insulin as 300 gram carb eaters (at maintenance calories) because higher carb eaters store less intermuscular fatty acids and synthesis more glycolytic enzymes.
how
It is widely recognized that diabetic patients show elevated fasting and postprandial glucagon levels relative to their high glucose levels. … It is well known that arginine acutely stimulates glucagon secretion. However, much less information exists about the influence of BCAAs on α-cell function.
Keep in mind that Type 1 diabetics don’t have amylin and amylin blocks glucagon, however acute glucagon secretion may cause a spike, it doesn’t change net insulin needs because glucagon gets depleted and runs low after a spike.
The standard model is that 50% if ingested protein is turned into glucose within 4 hours of consumption, but in reality, at least a large effect is due to the fact that amino acids will steal insulin that would have been used by glucose to get into cells, and also amino acids stimulate glucagon and in some cases other counter regulatory hormones.
Also be aware that amino acids will raise blood sugar in insulin dependent diabetics but lower blood sugar in type 2 diabetics because they will stimulate more insulin release.
Lastly, amino acids stimulate more insulin in low carb dieters than high carb dieters and even more in ketogenic dieters.
Not sure about that. There is evidence that in fat-adapted ketogenic dieters that this is not the case, especially with BCAAs. I’ve personally noticed little change in blood ketone levels following sizable dosing of soluble EAAs and peptopro.
That should be true, there should be little change in blood ketone levels because high fat diets, and even more so ketogenic diets produce mild to moderate physiological (no pathological) insulin resistance, so while a ketogenic dieter may require a release of 2.5 units of insulin to manage 40 grams of protein (say 1 per 16 grams is typical) and a non-ketogenic high carb dieter typically requires 1 unit to manage the blood sugar effects of 40 grams of protein, the relative decrease in insulin sensitivity in the ketogenic dieter will mean that the 2.5 units is largely resisted by physiological insulin resistance.
Just to put some real world numbers on it with ketogenic and high carb type 1 diabetics I have talked to, a standard 80 kg high carb dieter will need a total daily insulin of about 64 units per day (.8/kg), but only about 1 unit to manage 20 grams of carbs and may only need 1 unit per 40 grams of protein. A standard 80 kilogram ketogenic type 1 diabetic will need only about 25-30 units of insulin per day, but will require 1 unit per 8 grams of carbs on average, and about 1 unit per 16 grams of protein. So while the insulin secreted by a ketogenic dieter in response to protein should be higher, it is less powerful on a unit per unit basis.
Note that a ketogenic t1d will be getting about 65% of their insulin as basal insulin and a high carber perhaps 30% if well managed.
Wanted to add that the bcaa’s will use up the insulin to get into cells meaning that the insulin will not be available to hit the liver and turn off ketosis.
@mertdawg this isn’t really related to ketosis, as much as just general fat loss, but I’ve read somewhere that BCAAs can raise insulin, but don’t actually turn into glucose, causing blood sugar to drop low. Anecdotally, whenever I have fast days where I eat a small fat/protein meal in the morning and try to just sip on bcaas til later that night that I do eventually feel symptoms of minor hypoglycemia (headache, brain fog, slight nausea, generally just feeling like shit) that goes away once I eat.