The bible doesn’t say that hell is a place of torment. It is just the common grave, where you would be going anyway when you die. No harm no foul.[/quote]
Revelation 20:15
If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
does not fire burn and hurt?[/quote]
you are right it does say that. may i point out that the book of revelation is filled with symbolism. take a look a what else was thrown into the lake of fire:
Revelation 20:14 (previous verse)
“And death and Ha’des were hurled into the lake of fire. this means the second death, the lake of fire.”
How can death be thrown into a lake of fire?[/quote]
I am not saying I can interpret the Book of Apocalypse, however I do assume death is the power that the Devil has over us before Jesus defeated death.[/quote]
you say “defeated” as if it has already happened. The book of revelation has not been fulfilled completely yet.
Romans 5:12
“That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.”
The Devil doesn’t have the power of death. Death is a by product of sin. You can thank Adam and Eve for that.
Now, brothers, these things I have transferred so as to apply to myself and Apolos for YOUR good, that in our case YOU may learn the [rule]: “Do not go beyond the things that are written.”
What is contained in the Bible is the final word. If something is written that disagrees with it, you must go to the Bible for the Authority on the answer.
[/quote]
I think to say the Bible is the final word is heavy to say at the least. If it was the Final word, then no further knowledge of our religion would be necessary and against the rules. However, with doctrine you can teach further about the religion and still stay with what Jesus gave us. I am not saying that doctrine can contradict the Bible, I am however saying that doctrine expands further with theology, etc.
[/quote]
that we can both agree on then. But things like an eternal torment is not in line with the Bible.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
To ckallander: It is one thing to do good during your life, but what about the bad things you do in your life? Does not the bad things out weigh the good? What is your definition of “being Good.” I am glad you are a good person, but the Bible does not teach that being good gets you to heaven. I dont know about you, but I really can not rely on myself to get me to heaven. I mess up all the time, and it really out weighs all the good I do. [/quote]
I really shouldn’t be poking my nose in your faith and really just posted that little blurb as a joke. I don’t believe in a god, heaven or hell. I do believe in this one phrase or whatever you guys call it:
Matthew 7:12 “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”
I believe in cause and effect and reincarnation. I know, I know it’s bullshit to you people, whatever. I just wish every person in this world would follow this fundamental belief.
I don’t view good and bad as quantities that cancel out each other.
I’ve always had a question about all this god stuff though, maybe one of you could answer?
If there is a god and he truly is against homosexuals and abortion and all the things the religious right says he’s against, then why did he create it?[/quote]
We’ll start with your first question. I will not go and list doctrine and Bible verses for this, I can later if need be. God did not create this, He created the Devil which turned his heart away from God because of Vanity, and the Devil himself turns the things that are good and truthful into things that are bad and are not fruitful.
Yes he will win in the end, I do not understand your implications though please explain further.
Humans have to do God’s work to show their true heart to God. Charity, Love, fulfill earthly Justice, etc.
[quote]
I don’t understand that at all. The thing is, we are told gold you mean God? is so unbelievably powerful that we can’t even comprehend his abilities. Yet, here I am, a nonbeliever, made in his image, doing exactly what he wants me to do because after all, he KNOWS what I am going to do anyway.[/quote]
Just because you have good will does not mean you are doing His will. Just because you are doing what he knows you will do, just like the Pharaoh, does not mean that you are doing His will.
How would it be silly, I need further explanation of what you are alluding to. Yes, we can have all the good will and love and charity in our hearts, however if we do not do Good works or any works at all, then how will our works be tested? How will we show we have freely chosen to follow His will?
[quote]
If you ask this one question at a time I would be happy to address it.[/quote]
[quote]
How, then, did those Christians, that lived in the first sixty-five years after Christ ascended, know what they had to do to save their souls? They knew it precisely in the same way that you know it, my dear Catholic friends. You know it from the teachings of the Church of God and so did the primitive Christians know it. [/quote]
The scrolls that later became the books were in circulation. They didn’t have to see a cover. The books were all there and were being written by the apostles, many in the form of letters, directly to the congregations.[/quote]
It took about 30-40 years for the first books to come out, that could mean that a whole generation or two missed out on even having been a live while the Bible was around after Jesus was crucified. And there were not many books in circulation either, it would take quite a long time to rewrite a new book.
How can this be? How can Jesus be God’s SON and be God at the same time?[/quote]
Because Jesus came from God, yet is God as well as man. Since there needed to be a sacrifice that was completely Holy and pure, the only person to do it was God. He however could not come down as God, because humans have no power to do anything to God. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, in order to come down to our level, feel the temptations and the tests yet still be pure and be sacrificed.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
If doctrine is not based on the Bible, which was written by the apostles, then the Catholic Church is not listening to the Apostles. [/quote]
May I try to explain how Catholics see things so we can have a basis for discussion?
The Church already existed at the time of Christ’s Death, Resurrection, and Ascension.
The Church were the Apostles, their followers, and their practices and beliefs.
The Scriptures were written down to record and codify what they were already doing and teaching - again, the Church.
Finally, we believe those Apostles are still among us in an unbroken line; and that Divine Truth continues to be revealed to us, albeit very slowly. This is, in part, what we mean by the “mystical body Christ,” including the Communion of Saints, etc.
And, nb: if the Scriptures were intended to be treated Sola Scriptura, then somewhere in the text, someone would have written: this is the law and the only law.
[/quote]
I am not trying to be an a-hole just trying to understand.[/quote]
Of course!
Remember, some what Jesus “told us” was also revealed after his ascension. Both teachings and the meaning of those teachings were conveyed via the Holy Spirit. That is one of the last things Christ said - that they would be visited by the Holy Spirit and taught about how to go forward. Well, they went forward and continued to build the Church; that Church still exists and is still being “inspired,” as Saint Thomas Aquinas, among many others, were “inspired” to write theology that establishes a great deal of Doctrine.
Much of what Christ said and did - we are told in many places - was not written down.
You cannot escape interpreting Scripture in light of certain knowledge that has been passed down. You cannot just purely focus on Scripture. You are bringing “tradition” to your reading whether you know it or not.
Aquinas would (and I believe did, but I’d have to poke around to get references) say: Truth is one. Therefore, Doctrine and Scripture must be consistent. That, however, does not mean they’re identical. One might even say that each interpret the other.
[quote]I can understand what you are saying about the apostolic succession, but if the new pope who succeeded the previous pope never knew the previous pope then how does that work? How can there be a line if the person was not trained by that person? If this is true would not Pope Benedict be able to heal the masses? There are countless stories of the first apostles healing many people, but the most resent Popes do not have that ability.
This is very simplified and does not involve the supernatural of God, but are you saying that President Obama succeeded President Washington, and Obama has all the knowledge of Washington? [/quote]
To be honest, that’s a rather mechanistic and worldly understanding of Apostolic Succession: it is not a matter of knowledge per se; the Holy Sacrament of Priesthood is a mystical participation in a Communion that transects time and space. At the moment of the celebration of the Blessed Sacrament, there is no division between heaven and earth - and between Christ breaking the bread at the Holy Eucharist and the Priest before us doing the same, in the very same moment.
There is so much mysticism in the Catholic Church and it’s so beautiful - and felt to be so true - that it’s EXCEEDINGLY difficult for non-Catholics to understand it.
[/quote]
I think that is the best description I have ever received from a Catholic on those subjects. The use of the word consistent is a perfect word to use. The doctrine must be consistent with scripture.
The Holy Eucharist and the mysticism I understand completly. I see people who take communion just because that is what Catholics do and they miss the entire point of it. We as Baptists only do it quarterly which I think is really not enough, but it does make it special and beautiful. When you concentrate on the emblems and know that it is the body and blood of Christ you start to feel as if he is with you. At that point I remember I need him and his sacrifice for us. I see how sinful I am and can do nothing but bow in his presence. He is God, and I am not, and that is a good thing for all of us. This do in remembrance of me.
[/quote]
The thing with Baptist’s communion is that they do not believe that the Holy Eucharist is the real flesh and the real blood of Jesus Christ. The concept of faith as it is today is new, even Mother Teresa went 60 years without having what is called faith, however no one says that which she did was wrong because she did not have faith. In the Church we do not need the emblems or statues, even though we do have them, to feel that He is with us, because we are truly eating of His Flesh and Blood, He enters us.
The bible doesn’t say that hell is a place of torment. It is just the common grave, where you would be going anyway when you die. No harm no foul.[/quote]
Revelation 20:15
If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
does not fire burn and hurt?[/quote]
you are right it does say that. may i point out that the book of revelation is filled with symbolism. take a look a what else was thrown into the lake of fire:
Revelation 20:14 (previous verse)
“And death and Ha’des were hurled into the lake of fire. this means the second death, the lake of fire.”
How can death be thrown into a lake of fire?[/quote]
I am not saying I can interpret the Book of Apocalypse, however I do assume death is the power that the Devil has over us before Jesus defeated death.[/quote]
you say “defeated” as if it has already happened. The book of revelation has not been fulfilled completely yet.
Romans 5:12
“That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.”
The Devil doesn’t have the power of death. Death is a by product of sin. You can thank Adam and Eve for that.[/quote]
Devil tricked Adam and Eve, yet if they would have just admitted that they did not listen to God, things might have turned out to be different, but that is not Human nature.
Jesus defeated Death, he already did that. He does not need to go to Hell for another three days to defeat death again. We just need to ride his coat tails if you know what I mean.
Now, brothers, these things I have transferred so as to apply to myself and Apolos for YOUR good, that in our case YOU may learn the [rule]: “Do not go beyond the things that are written.”
What is contained in the Bible is the final word. If something is written that disagrees with it, you must go to the Bible for the Authority on the answer.
[/quote]
I think to say the Bible is the final word is heavy to say at the least. If it was the Final word, then no further knowledge of our religion would be necessary and against the rules. However, with doctrine you can teach further about the religion and still stay with what Jesus gave us. I am not saying that doctrine can contradict the Bible, I am however saying that doctrine expands further with theology, etc.
[/quote]
that we can both agree on then. But things like an eternal torment is not in line with the Bible.[/quote]
It is not against it, Jesus explains that the Holy Ghost will give us Divine revelations.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
The bible doesn’t say that hell is a place of torment. It is just the common grave, where you would be going anyway when you die. No harm no foul.[/quote]
Really? This is complete news to me. As you know, it is somewhat of a common misconception then that hell is quite a painful place. So, are you saying it’s more like a purgatory?
[/quote]
I have personally not found any evidence of a purgatory in the Bible. “Hell” is just the grave. plain and simple. when you die, no matter what you did, you go to the grave, just like Adam and Eve did.
Romans 6:23
“For the wages sin pays is death.”
Once you die, that is complete payment for the sin that you inherited.[/quote]
Well instead of saying you have not found evidence in the Bible of purgatory, go to the folks that have been spreading this word for over 1900 years and that do say there is purgatory and ask them to show you. The proof is there, the Catholic Church has come to terms that some people will not listen (at least outside of the Church) unless it comes from the Bible and elaborated on in the past.
What I think most people misunderstand and cannot grasp is that the first Catholic Bishops wrote the New Testament. It was determined to be divinely written. However, when this was established we did not know everything about our religion. Through the years we have learned more and more about our religion and thus writing our doctrine on Catholic wisdom and Biblical knowledge. So the Church created the Bible it also created other doctrine, so why would we not listen to the other Doctrine if Jesus tells us to listen to the doctrine of the Church. All doctrine is, is what the Apostles have passed down onto future generations about the religion and how it should be done.[/quote]
If doctrine is not based on the Bible, which was written by the apostles, then the Catholic Church is not listening to the Apostles. Doctrines can be used as political power and Jesus never wanted Political Power. Look at the Doctrine of Endulgences does the Catholic Church still believe that? Well the Popes of that time period set it as Doctrine, and if you do not follow that then you are a Heretic by your own rules. God gave us a brain to think about these things. He also gave us a guide in the Bible. Most Protestants follow the New Testament, and as I see the New Testament is the same in both the Catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible. The differences are in the Old Testament which was before Jesus. I am not saying we should not look at the Old Testament or follow its teachings, but we are more alike than you are giving credit. The Protestants are your friends, and if someone is telling you that you will go to hell because you are Catholic, then they are wrong. Look at the Apostles Creed. That is what we base our hopes, and faith in. That is no different from being Catholic or Protestant. We are splitting hairs on all the other stuff. The Apostles Creed is the definition of a Christian.
The catholic chruch includes both Catholic and Protestant.[/quote]
I would like you to explain your idea of the catholic church vs. The Catholic Church.
[/quote]
The definition of "c"atholic church is the universal christian church including both Catholics and Protestants. The "C"atholic Chruch refers to the Roman Catholic Church with the Pope as the head of the church. I am not trying to convert you to be a Protestant, I just want you to understand where we come from. I really hope you are not saying that if you are not Roman Catholic you are going to hell. I understand the doctrine of baby baptisms and the removal of original sin, usually our contengency is that the act of baptistism does not save you from Hell. It is an act of obedience to God. What saves you from Hell is your faith in Jesus Christ and that he died for your sins, and everythin in the Apostles Creed.
All Catholics love to put a Capital C in the Apostles creed, but to my knowledge the original was a little c. At the time there was only one church and it was known as the catholic church. It was changed after the Reformation so that the Roman Catholic Church could claim ownership of it. This is hard to proove or disproove.
How can this be? How can Jesus be God’s SON and be God at the same time?[/quote]
Because Jesus came from God, yet is God as well as man. Since there needed to be a sacrifice that was completely Holy and pure, the only person to do it was God. He however could not come down as God, because humans have no power to do anything to God. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, in order to come down to our level, feel the temptations and the tests yet still be pure and be sacrificed.[/quote]
Can you show me some scriptural reference for this please?
Now, brothers, these things I have transferred so as to apply to myself and Apolos for YOUR good, that in our case YOU may learn the [rule]: “Do not go beyond the things that are written.”
What is contained in the Bible is the final word. If something is written that disagrees with it, you must go to the Bible for the Authority on the answer.
[/quote]
I think to say the Bible is the final word is heavy to say at the least. If it was the Final word, then no further knowledge of our religion would be necessary and against the rules. However, with doctrine you can teach further about the religion and still stay with what Jesus gave us. I am not saying that doctrine can contradict the Bible, I am however saying that doctrine expands further with theology, etc.
[/quote]
that we can both agree on then. But things like an eternal torment is not in line with the Bible.[/quote]
It is not against it, Jesus explains that the Holy Ghost will give us Divine revelations.[/quote]
And what scriptural basis is the fact that hell is a place of torment based off of that needed further revelations?
How can this be? How can Jesus be God’s SON and be God at the same time?[/quote]
Because Jesus came from God, yet is God as well as man. Since there needed to be a sacrifice that was completely Holy and pure, the only person to do it was God. He however could not come down as God, because humans have no power to do anything to God. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, in order to come down to our level, feel the temptations and the tests yet still be pure and be sacrificed.[/quote]
Can you show me some scriptural reference for this please?[/quote]
See, here is where we’re going to run into problems.
That’s why I asked on the last page the question: do you believe Manichaeism to be heresy? Presumably you do. But you’re going to have a hard time providing a purely scriptural basis for this. In fact, the Manichaens, early on, nearly co-opted Scripture.
Jesus defeated Death, he already did that. He does not need to go to Hell for another three days to defeat death again. We just need to ride his coat tails if you know what I mean.[/quote]
We may agree, so let me expound and find out.
Jesus opened up a way for LIFE for us by being the permanent sacrifice for our sins. However, people still die, so death is not gone. Death will be gone in future, when he wipes it out by throwing it into the lake of fire.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
If doctrine is not based on the Bible, which was written by the apostles, then the Catholic Church is not listening to the Apostles. [/quote]
May I try to explain how Catholics see things so we can have a basis for discussion?
The Church already existed at the time of Christ’s Death, Resurrection, and Ascension.
The Church were the Apostles, their followers, and their practices and beliefs.
The Scriptures were written down to record and codify what they were already doing and teaching - again, the Church.
Finally, we believe those Apostles are still among us in an unbroken line; and that Divine Truth continues to be revealed to us, albeit very slowly. This is, in part, what we mean by the “mystical body Christ,” including the Communion of Saints, etc.
And, nb: if the Scriptures were intended to be treated Sola Scriptura, then somewhere in the text, someone would have written: this is the law and the only law.
[/quote]
I am not trying to be an a-hole just trying to understand.[/quote]
Of course!
Remember, some what Jesus “told us” was also revealed after his ascension. Both teachings and the meaning of those teachings were conveyed via the Holy Spirit. That is one of the last things Christ said - that they would be visited by the Holy Spirit and taught about how to go forward. Well, they went forward and continued to build the Church; that Church still exists and is still being “inspired,” as Saint Thomas Aquinas, among many others, were “inspired” to write theology that establishes a great deal of Doctrine.
Much of what Christ said and did - we are told in many places - was not written down.
You cannot escape interpreting Scripture in light of certain knowledge that has been passed down. You cannot just purely focus on Scripture. You are bringing “tradition” to your reading whether you know it or not.
Aquinas would (and I believe did, but I’d have to poke around to get references) say: Truth is one. Therefore, Doctrine and Scripture must be consistent. That, however, does not mean they’re identical. One might even say that each interpret the other.
[quote]I can understand what you are saying about the apostolic succession, but if the new pope who succeeded the previous pope never knew the previous pope then how does that work? How can there be a line if the person was not trained by that person? If this is true would not Pope Benedict be able to heal the masses? There are countless stories of the first apostles healing many people, but the most resent Popes do not have that ability.
This is very simplified and does not involve the supernatural of God, but are you saying that President Obama succeeded President Washington, and Obama has all the knowledge of Washington? [/quote]
To be honest, that’s a rather mechanistic and worldly understanding of Apostolic Succession: it is not a matter of knowledge per se; the Holy Sacrament of Priesthood is a mystical participation in a Communion that transects time and space. At the moment of the celebration of the Blessed Sacrament, there is no division between heaven and earth - and between Christ breaking the bread at the Holy Eucharist and the Priest before us doing the same, in the very same moment.
There is so much mysticism in the Catholic Church and it’s so beautiful - and felt to be so true - that it’s EXCEEDINGLY difficult for non-Catholics to understand it.
[/quote]
I think that is the best description I have ever received from a Catholic on those subjects. The use of the word consistent is a perfect word to use. The doctrine must be consistent with scripture.
The Holy Eucharist and the mysticism I understand completly. I see people who take communion just because that is what Catholics do and they miss the entire point of it. We as Baptists only do it quarterly which I think is really not enough, but it does make it special and beautiful. When you concentrate on the emblems and know that it is the body and blood of Christ you start to feel as if he is with you. At that point I remember I need him and his sacrifice for us. I see how sinful I am and can do nothing but bow in his presence. He is God, and I am not, and that is a good thing for all of us. This do in remembrance of me.
[/quote]
The thing with Baptist’s communion is that they do not believe that the Holy Eucharist is the real flesh and the real blood of Jesus Christ. The concept of faith as it is today is new, even Mother Teresa went 60 years without having what is called faith, however no one says that which she did was wrong because she did not have faith. In the Church we do not need the emblems or statues, even though we do have them, to feel that He is with us, because we are truly eating of His Flesh and Blood, He enters us.
Just have to find the right Church. :)[/quote]
I agree that you have to find the right church with the correct teaching and that teaching has to be grounded in the Bible.
On the Holy Eucarist I have to state that the Baptists do not believe that it is the body and the blood or Christ, but an emblem of what they represent. Does that make it wrong? I think it is splitting hairs if you are taking the emblems with a clean heart and focusing on God. Both Baptists and Catholics take these in the wrong manner. It is a really big deal, and many do not understand it. I took communion once at a Catholic chruch and was asked after taking you are not Catholic are you. I told them no, but I have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The lady said that is all I needed to hear. I was not condemned or anything of that nature. I was welcomed and that means a lot.
I hear, not as much any more, but growing up that the Catholic Church was Evil. I really hated hearing that because God made us all, and if all the Christians would hold hands and sing Koom-by-yah we could actually get some work done. We need to get past all the little things that make us different, but embrace what brings us together, and that is the Saving Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
How can this be? How can Jesus be God’s SON and be God at the same time?[/quote]
Because Jesus came from God, yet is God as well as man. Since there needed to be a sacrifice that was completely Holy and pure, the only person to do it was God. He however could not come down as God, because humans have no power to do anything to God. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, in order to come down to our level, feel the temptations and the tests yet still be pure and be sacrificed.[/quote]
Can you show me some scriptural reference for this please?[/quote]
See, here is where we’re going to run into problems.
That’s why I asked on the last page the question: do you believe Manichaeism to be heresy? Presumably you do. But you’re going to have a hard time providing a purely scriptural basis for this. In fact, the Manichaens, early on, nearly co-opted Scripture.
[/quote]
I apologize, I missed that question. I do not feel that those would be truly inspired of God. They need to be in the Bible as a BASIS at least. it cannot CONTRADICT the Bible. No one is going to have a revelation of something that contradicts the Bible, that doesn’t make sense.
The fact that you are going to have a hard time proving it from the Bible, should lead you to question the belief and search for the truth.
Acts 17:10,11
10Â Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas out to Beroea and these,upon arriving, went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.
How can this be? How can Jesus be God’s SON and be God at the same time?[/quote]
Because Jesus came from God, yet is God as well as man. Since there needed to be a sacrifice that was completely Holy and pure, the only person to do it was God. He however could not come down as God, because humans have no power to do anything to God. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, in order to come down to our level, feel the temptations and the tests yet still be pure and be sacrificed.[/quote]
Can you show me some scriptural reference for this please?[/quote]
See, here is where we’re going to run into problems.
That’s why I asked on the last page the question: do you believe Manichaeism to be heresy? Presumably you do. But you’re going to have a hard time providing a purely scriptural basis for this. In fact, the Manichaens, early on, nearly co-opted Scripture.
[/quote]
I apologize, I missed that question. I do not feel that those would be truly inspired of God. They need to be in the Bible as a BASIS at least. it cannot CONTRADICT the Bible. No one is going to have a revelation of something that contradicts the Bible, that doesn’t make sense.
The fact that you are going to have a hard time proving it from the Bible, should lead you to question the belief and search for the truth.
Acts 17:10,11
10� Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas out to Beroea and these,upon arriving, went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.
[/quote]
So you don’t believe that Manichaeism is a false teaching?
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
To ckallander: It is one thing to do good during your life, but what about the bad things you do in your life? Does not the bad things out weigh the good? What is your definition of “being Good.” I am glad you are a good person, but the Bible does not teach that being good gets you to heaven. I dont know about you, but I really can not rely on myself to get me to heaven. I mess up all the time, and it really out weighs all the good I do. [/quote]
I really shouldn’t be poking my nose in your faith and really just posted that little blurb as a joke. I don’t believe in a god, heaven or hell. I do believe in this one phrase or whatever you guys call it:
Matthew 7:12 “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”
I believe in cause and effect and reincarnation. I know, I know it’s bullshit to you people, whatever. I just wish every person in this world would follow this fundamental belief.
I don’t view good and bad as quantities that cancel out each other.
I’ve always had a question about all this god stuff though, maybe one of you could answer?
If there is a god and he truly is against homosexuals and abortion and all the things the religious right says he’s against, then why did he create it? If he is all powerful then wont he win in the end anyway? Why do humans have to do god’s work? I mean, what work has to be done anyway? I don’t understand that at all. The thing is, we are told gold is so unbelievably powerful that we can’t even comprehend his abilities. Yet, here I am, a nonbeliever, made in his image, doing exactly what he wants me to do because after all, he KNOWS what I am going to do anyway. He is all powerful. I’m not trying to discredit your beliefs but it just seems illogical to me. I know he works in divine ways and whatnot and we aren’t smart enough to comprehend his plans, but it just seems a but silly don’t you think?
[/quote]
I would like to challenge and encourage you to continue your search for the truth. You are at least trying and that is to be commended. I struggle with what you have stated all the time. God being all powerful and knowing what you are going to do just makes him want what is best for you more. He loves you. Keep searching for the truth and you will find it. I will be praying for you ckallander.
So you don’t believe that Manichaeism is a false teaching?
[/quote]
I will admit, I don’t know the specifics of it. Does it disagree with the Bible?[/quote]
Well, not exactly. Let me explain briefly.
First, Manichaenism is a perennial and hardy weed (and a false teaching; a heresy) that keeps cropping up - you’ll find it today in the Neo-gnostics. It’s just the sort of thing that appeals to post-modern Americans.
Second, it’s extremely important that all of us remain vigilant for gnostic tendencies in ourselves and others.
Third, St. Augustine started as a Manichaen - and worked 10 years to weed it out from his mind and wrote one of the great books in the Western tradition on how and why he did so (see his Confessions - a truly wonderful book; I wish everyone would read it). His theology is considered to be one of the prime refutations of the Manichaen heresy; however…
Fourth, in doing so, while of course St. Augustine refers to Scripture, much of it is really based instead in extremely well-reasoned theology/philosophy. I haven’t personally ever seen a refutation that is based solely in Scripture; I don’t believe it’s possible.
@Brother Chris - regarding Aquinas and purgatory; let me get back to you.
So you don’t believe that Manichaeism is a false teaching?
[/quote]
I will admit, I don’t know the specifics of it. Does it disagree with the Bible?[/quote]
Well, not exactly. Let me explain briefly.
First, Manichaenism is a perennial and hardy weed (and a false teaching; a heresy) that keeps cropping up - you’ll find it today in the Neo-gnostics. It’s just the sort of thing that appeals to post-modern Americans.
Second, it’s extremely important that all of us remain vigilant for gnostic tendencies in ourselves and others.
Third, St. Augustine started as a Manichaen - and worked 10 years to weed it out from his mind and wrote one of the great books in the Western tradition on how and why he did so (see his Confessions - a truly wonderful book; I wish everyone would read it). His theology is considered to be one of the prime refutations of the Manichaen heresy; however…
Fourth, in doing so, while of course St. Augustine refers to Scripture, much of it is really based instead in extremely well-reasoned theology/philosophy. I haven’t personally ever seen a refutation that is based solely in Scripture; I don’t believe it’s possible.
@Brother Chris - regarding Aquinas and purgatory; let me get back to you.
[/quote]
I was given a copy of Confessions from a Baptist Preacher no doubt. I am going to have to pick that back up. I was an undergraduate at at Baptist University in a preaching class. This was one of the required readings. My undergraduate so you know was in Business and Christianity. Christianity degree was not manditory at this University. My plan was to be a preacher, but I was really bad at it. There are some other things that happened and so the preaching route was haulted. Some of the things I did would have gotten me excommunicated from the Catholic Church, but I am glad that Jesus gave me grace. To this day I still can not believe he still Loves me for the things that I did. He believes in me and I will do whatever it takes to tell everyone what Jesus has done for me, and He will do it for them too.
