The Church or The Bible

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
If doctrine is not based on the Bible, which was written by the apostles, then the Catholic Church is not listening to the Apostles. [/quote]

May I try to explain how Catholics see things so we can have a basis for discussion?

The Church already existed at the time of Christ’s Death, Resurrection, and Ascension.

The Church were the Apostles, their followers, and their practices and beliefs.

The Scriptures were written down to record and codify what they were already doing and teaching - again, the Church.

Finally, we believe those Apostles are still among us in an unbroken line; and that Divine Truth continues to be revealed to us, albeit very slowly. This is, in part, what we mean by the “mystical body Christ,” including the Communion of Saints, etc.

And, nb: if the Scriptures were intended to be treated Sola Scriptura, then somewhere in the text, someone would have written: this is the law and the only law.

[/quote]

I am not trying to be an a-hole just trying to understand.[/quote]

Of course! :slight_smile:

  1. Remember, some what Jesus “told us” was also revealed after his ascension. Both teachings and the meaning of those teachings were conveyed via the Holy Spirit. That is one of the last things Christ said - that they would be visited by the Holy Spirit and taught about how to go forward. Well, they went forward and continued to build the Church; that Church still exists and is still being “inspired,” as Saint Thomas Aquinas, among many others, were “inspired” to write theology that establishes a great deal of Doctrine.

  2. Much of what Christ said and did - we are told in many places - was not written down.

  3. You cannot escape interpreting Scripture in light of certain knowledge that has been passed down. You cannot just purely focus on Scripture. You are bringing “tradition” to your reading whether you know it or not.

  4. Aquinas would (and I believe did, but I’d have to poke around to get references) say: Truth is one. Therefore, Doctrine and Scripture must be consistent. That, however, does not mean they’re identical. One might even say that each interpret the other.

[quote]I can understand what you are saying about the apostolic succession, but if the new pope who succeeded the previous pope never knew the previous pope then how does that work? How can there be a line if the person was not trained by that person? If this is true would not Pope Benedict be able to heal the masses? There are countless stories of the first apostles healing many people, but the most resent Popes do not have that ability.

This is very simplified and does not involve the supernatural of God, but are you saying that President Obama succeeded President Washington, and Obama has all the knowledge of Washington? [/quote]

To be honest, that’s a rather mechanistic and worldly understanding of Apostolic Succession: it is not a matter of knowledge per se; the Holy Sacrament of Priesthood is a mystical participation in a Communion that transects time and space. At the moment of the celebration of the Blessed Sacrament, there is no division between heaven and earth - and between Christ breaking the bread at the Holy Eucharist and the Priest before us doing the same, in the very same moment.

There is so much mysticism in the Catholic Church and it’s so beautiful - and felt to be so true - that it’s EXCEEDINGLY difficult for non-Catholics to understand it.

[/quote]

I think that is the best description I have ever received from a Catholic on those subjects. The use of the word consistent is a perfect word to use. The doctrine must be consistent with scripture.

The Holy Eucharist and the mysticism I understand completly. I see people who take communion just because that is what Catholics do and they miss the entire point of it. We as Baptists only do it quarterly which I think is really not enough, but it does make it special and beautiful. When you concentrate on the emblems and know that it is the body and blood of Christ you start to feel as if he is with you. At that point I remember I need him and his sacrifice for us. I see how sinful I am and can do nothing but bow in his presence. He is God, and I am not, and that is a good thing for all of us. This do in remembrance of me.

There are a lot of things that people miss everyday about who Christ is and what the Church believes. Because they are on the outside looking in. The issue is they are welcome to come to Christ and really know who he is and what he wants for us. People look to the humans to see who Christ is, but He was perfect and man is not so they will never truely know Christ without getting to know him, and the only way without going through any humans preconcieved notions is to turn to scripture. Scripture is easily miss interpreted because of lack of knowledge, and that is where the church comes into play. The church helps instructs you in the meaning of the Bible.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
If doctrine is not based on the Bible, which was written by the apostles, then the Catholic Church is not listening to the Apostles. [/quote]

May I try to explain how Catholics see things so we can have a basis for discussion?

The Church already existed at the time of Christ’s Death, Resurrection, and Ascension.

The Church were the Apostles, their followers, and their practices and beliefs.

The Scriptures were written down to record and codify what they were already doing and teaching - again, the Church.

Finally, we believe those Apostles are still among us in an unbroken line; and that Divine Truth continues to be revealed to us, albeit very slowly. This is, in part, what we mean by the “mystical body Christ,” including the Communion of Saints, etc.

And, nb: if the Scriptures were intended to be treated Sola Scriptura, then somewhere in the text, someone would have written: this is the law and the only law.

[/quote]

I am not trying to be an a-hole just trying to understand.[/quote]

Of course! :slight_smile:

  1. Remember, some what Jesus “told us” was also revealed after his ascension. Both teachings and the meaning of those teachings were conveyed via the Holy Spirit. That is one of the last things Christ said - that they would be visited by the Holy Spirit and taught about how to go forward. Well, they went forward and continued to build the Church; that Church still exists and is still being “inspired,” as Saint Thomas Aquinas, among many others, were “inspired” to write theology that establishes a great deal of Doctrine.

  2. Much of what Christ said and did - we are told in many places - was not written down.

  3. You cannot escape interpreting Scripture in light of certain knowledge that has been passed down. You cannot just purely focus on Scripture. You are bringing “tradition” to your reading whether you know it or not.

  4. Aquinas would (and I believe did, but I’d have to poke around to get references) say: Truth is one. Therefore, Doctrine and Scripture must be consistent. That, however, does not mean they’re identical. One might even say that each interpret the other.

[quote]I can understand what you are saying about the apostolic succession, but if the new pope who succeeded the previous pope never knew the previous pope then how does that work? How can there be a line if the person was not trained by that person? If this is true would not Pope Benedict be able to heal the masses? There are countless stories of the first apostles healing many people, but the most resent Popes do not have that ability.

This is very simplified and does not involve the supernatural of God, but are you saying that President Obama succeeded President Washington, and Obama has all the knowledge of Washington? [/quote]

To be honest, that’s a rather mechanistic and worldly understanding of Apostolic Succession: it is not a matter of knowledge per se; the Holy Sacrament of Priesthood is a mystical participation in a Communion that transects time and space. At the moment of the celebration of the Blessed Sacrament, there is no division between heaven and earth - and between Christ breaking the bread at the Holy Eucharist and the Priest before us doing the same, in the very same moment.

There is so much mysticism in the Catholic Church and it’s so beautiful - and felt to be so true - that it’s EXCEEDINGLY difficult for non-Catholics to understand it.

[/quote]

I think that is the best description I have ever received from a Catholic on those subjects. The use of the word consistent is a perfect word to use. The doctrine must be consistent with scripture.

The Holy Eucharist and the mysticism I understand completly. I see people who take communion just because that is what Catholics do and they miss the entire point of it. We as Baptists only do it quarterly which I think is really not enough, but it does make it special and beautiful. When you concentrate on the emblems and know that it is the body and blood of Christ you start to feel as if he is with you. At that point I remember I need him and his sacrifice for us. I see how sinful I am and can do nothing but bow in his presence. He is God, and I am not, and that is a good thing for all of us. This do in remembrance of me.

There are a lot of things that people miss everyday about who Christ is and what the Church believes. Because they are on the outside looking in. The issue is they are welcome to come to Christ and really know who he is and what he wants for us. People look to the humans to see who Christ is, but He was perfect and man is not so they will never truely know Christ without getting to know him, and the only way without going through any humans preconcieved notions is to turn to scripture. Scripture is easily miss interpreted because of lack of knowledge, and that is where the church comes into play. The church helps instructs you in the meaning of the Bible.
[/quote]

Totally agree. This gets back to Pat’s point - that we actually share FAR MORE than we differ.

On Baptists: I actually think there’s a great deal to be said for celebrating the Eucharist less often. Too many Catholics (myself included) can get to the point of merely “going through motions” - which is, extremely dangerous. It’s better not to take it than to take it for granted. Really, from a Catholic point of view, one should always in a state of Grace - or abstain.

Yours in Christ,

~Katz

Mathew 15:3-11

In reply he said to them: “Why is it YOU also overstep the commandment of God because of YOUR tradition? 4 For example, God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Let him that reviles father or mother end up in death.’ 5 But YOU say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother: “Whatever I have by which you might get benefit from me is a gift dedicated to God.” 6 he must not honor his father at all.’ And so YOU have made the word of God invalid because of YOUR tradition. 7 YOU hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU, when he said, 8 ‘This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” 10 With that he called the crowd near and said to them: “Listen and get the sense of it: 11 Not what enters into [his] mouth defiles a man: but it is what proceeds out of [his] mouth that defiles a man.”

I would be so bold as to say, if the teachings of the Church are not in line with the Scriptures, they are false teachings and should not be followed, as they do not have God’s favor.

Stated,

“I would be so bold as to say, if the teachings of the Church are not in line with the Scriptures, they are false teachings and should not be followed, as they do not have God’s favor.”

Galations 1:7-9 “…there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

The Bible clearly affirms that there is only one gospel, “the gospel of Christ” (v. 7). It has come to us through “the revelation of Jesus Christ” (Gal. 1:12) and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The gospel is defined and revealed in the Bible, the Word of God. Any teachings, doctrines, or ideas originating from persons, churches, or traditions and not expressed or implied in God’s Word, may not be included in the gospel of Christ. To mix them with the original content of the gospel is to “pervert the gospel of Christ” (v. 7).

The word “accursed” (Gk. anathema; v. 9) means that one lies under the curse of God, is doomed to destruction, and will receive God’s wrath and damnation. The apostle Paul reveals the Holy Spirit’s inspired attitude of judgment and indignation toward those who attempt to distort the original “gospel of christ” (v. 7) and to change the truth of apostolic witness.

Accursed are all those who preach a gospel contrary to the message that Paul preached, as revealed to him by Christ (Gal. 1:11-12). Anyone adding to or taking away from the original and fundamental gospel of Christ and the apostles stands under the curse of God; “God shall take away his part out of the book of life” (Rev. 22:18-19).

MARANATHA

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Mathew 15:3-11

In reply he said to them: “Why is it YOU also overstep the commandment of God because of YOUR tradition? 4 For example, God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Let him that reviles father or mother end up in death.’ 5 But YOU say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother: “Whatever I have by which you might get benefit from me is a gift dedicated to God.” 6 he must not honor his father at all.’ And so YOU have made the word of God invalid because of YOUR tradition. 7 YOU hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU, when he said, 8 ‘This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” 10 With that he called the crowd near and said to them: “Listen and get the sense of it: 11 Not what enters into [his] mouth defiles a man: but it is what proceeds out of [his] mouth that defiles a man.”

I would be so bold as to say, if the teachings of the Church are not in line with the Scriptures, they are false teachings and should not be followed, as they do not have God’s favor.
[/quote]

Okay. Do you believe Manicheaism is a heresy?

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]wher0001 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]wher0001 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ckallander wrote:
Up the punks![/quote]

The bible doesn’t say that hell is a place of torment. It is just the common grave, where you would be going anyway when you die. No harm no foul.[/quote]

He is correct as far as the scholars are concerned.
http://www.harvestherald.com/pdf/eternal_torment_not_scriptural.pdf

However, it does say that we will be judged by our actions and that is the point of being good to others. It also doesn’t help to not be an a-hole!
[/quote]

2 commands:

Love God and love your neighbor - See John 13:34,35.

Now, to be pleasing to God, you need to do what His will is.

1 John 5:3

For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome.
[/quote]

And IMO, the ten commandments boil down to don’t be an a-hole. To understand any one religion, we must understand them all. I have studied many religions, including but not limited to: Buddism, Catholicism (confirmed), Baptist, Protestant, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Mormon, Hindu, Muslim(Moslem), The Watchtower People…they all say the same thing. DON’T BE AN A-HOLE!

In response, some say if you do act like an a-hole Karma will get you, but in ours (Christian) is says that you will die and go to hell. I still have never seen anything in any ORIGINAL translation of the bible about Purgatory, however I could care less. If God/Jesus/The Holy Ghost have a problem with me due to the fact that I DO believe in them and simply obey the ten Commandments and could care less about all of the mumbo-jumbo associated with the Catholic Tradition, then I guess I will find out a little too late. Oh freakin’ well.

[/quote]

That is a personal opinion I guess. I feel the need to point out that, although the Ten commandments are important, they are no longer the ‘LAW’ that we are under. We are under Christ’s Law, which is found in the Greek Scriptures, or the New Testament.[/quote]

I hope you are not trying to imply that Christ’s Law dos not include the Ten Commandments.

My point from the beginning is that I don’t believe anyone should be wasting their time trying to understand the deep-rooted theological reasoning for anything in the bible. If you are a good person and are not let into heaven under the divine grace a any God, then the point of that God’s existence is an incoherent fallacy in and of itself.

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Stated,

“I would be so bold as to say, if the teachings of the Church are not in line with the Scriptures, they are false teachings and should not be followed, as they do not have God’s favor.”

Galations 1:7-9 “…there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

The Bible clearly affirms that there is only one gospel, “the gospel of Christ” (v. 7). It has come to us through “the revelation of Jesus Christ” (Gal. 1:12) and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The gospel is defined and revealed in the Bible, the Word of God. Any teachings, doctrines, or ideas originating from persons, churches, or traditions and not expressed or implied in God’s Word, may not be included in the gospel of Christ. To mix them with the original content of the gospel is to “pervert the gospel of Christ” (v. 7).

The word “accursed” (Gk. anathema; v. 9) means that one lies under the curse of God, is doomed to destruction, and will receive God’s wrath and damnation. The apostle Paul reveals the Holy Spirit’s inspired attitude of judgment and indignation toward those who attempt to distort the original “gospel of christ” (v. 7) and to change the truth of apostolic witness.

Accursed are all those who preach a gospel contrary to the message that Paul preached, as revealed to him by Christ (Gal. 1:11-12). Anyone adding to or taking away from the original and fundamental gospel of Christ and the apostles stands under the curse of God; “God shall take away his part out of the book of life” (Rev. 22:18-19).

MARANATHA
[/quote]

I almost quoted Rev. 22:18-19, but the issue I have with those verses is does it pertain to the Book of Revelation or does it pertain to the entire Bible. I believe several of the Books of the Bible were actually written after Revelation and they were still added to the Cannon. This one is really tricky.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
To ckallander: It is one thing to do good during your life, but what about the bad things you do in your life? Does not the bad things out weigh the good? What is your definition of “being Good.” I am glad you are a good person, but the Bible does not teach that being good gets you to heaven. I dont know about you, but I really can not rely on myself to get me to heaven. I mess up all the time, and it really out weighs all the good I do. [/quote]

I really shouldn’t be poking my nose in your faith and really just posted that little blurb as a joke. I don’t believe in a god, heaven or hell. I do believe in this one phrase or whatever you guys call it:

Matthew 7:12 “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”

I believe in cause and effect and reincarnation. I know, I know it’s bullshit to you people, whatever. I just wish every person in this world would follow this fundamental belief.

I don’t view good and bad as quantities that cancel out each other.

I’ve always had a question about all this god stuff though, maybe one of you could answer?

If there is a god and he truly is against homosexuals and abortion and all the things the religious right says he’s against, then why did he create it? If he is all powerful then wont he win in the end anyway? Why do humans have to do god’s work? I mean, what work has to be done anyway? I don’t understand that at all. The thing is, we are told gold is so unbelievably powerful that we can’t even comprehend his abilities. Yet, here I am, a nonbeliever, made in his image, doing exactly what he wants me to do because after all, he KNOWS what I am going to do anyway. He is all powerful. I’m not trying to discredit your beliefs but it just seems illogical to me. I know he works in divine ways and whatnot and we aren’t smart enough to comprehend his plans, but it just seems a but silly don’t you think?

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TDub301 wrote:
Typical, a Catholic priest “proving” things through his interpretation of the Bible and not realizing (or blatantly ignoring) how hypocritical he is being. Can’t wait to see how he “proved” that the Catholic church is right and the rest are wrong.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I grew up learning that listening to the Catholic Church is how you learn how to be Holy and develop your religious life for God. Yes, Martin Luther did do the Church good, but even Protestant leaders have not fulfilled all 95 letters of Martin Luther, however the Catholic Church has fulfilled some of those 95 letters.[/quote]

So… since you grew up learning it, that’s why it is true? Playing devil’s advocate here, that is kind of an empty statement. Of course the Catholic church is going to teach you that, just like every other church teaches the equivalent. Then you say that Protestants didn’t fulfull all 95 letters, but continue to state that the Catholics fulfulled some… so you mean that noone has actually fullfilled all of them? right?

Sorry for the rant, I think you guys are doing good work and it is good to talk about this stuff. My problem is that humans are fallable. Humans teach the Bible and also wrote the Bible (inspired or not). So to take one over the other is also a fallacy, really.

The goal is to be as close to accurate as possible. I think you should read and understand the Bible on your own and if you are having confusion, you go to someone to help clear the confusion. And not just one someone, but many, that way you aren’t just getting a single person’s interpretation. From that point, if you truly believe in God and His teachings, you can feel inside your heart what is truly the way God wants you to see His word. That isn’t for someone who is new to Christianity, but for someone who knows God’s teachings well (which comes from reading the Word, preferably different versoins and also learning from a host of different teachers, never just one, unless it is Jesus himself). Just like weightlifting, when you first start out, you have a lot to learn. Once you get to a certain point, if you’re truly committed, you learn to read yourself and do what is right without anyone else’s guidance.

Daniel prayed in his closet, right? I think he set an excellent example. But the corruption in the church, which started from the beginning and still continues on 2000 years later will never die, which is why you can’t completely rely on the teachings of others, have to at least find a healthy balance between the 2.

That’s my 2 cents, take it for what it’s worth and please keep the discussion going[/quote]

Okay, I am sorry but as a lay person, even though I study the Bible and other documents of the Church I would rather go to a well learned Scholar when it came to understanding what to do in a situation.

Here is the situation I have figured out on my own.

Jesus gave us the Church
Jesus said follow the Church that he established through St. Peter.
He said all that did not follow the Church were heretics.
Apostles wrote down what Jesus did and said over the next half decade.
Apostles learned more and wrote more on the Faith over the next 250 years.
The Bible was complete after a few Councils, yet many of them still did not have a Bible, kept preaching the message without a Bible.

So let’s say unofficially the Bible was not put together until 300 something CE, well Jesus never said read the Bible, however he did say listen to his Apostles. So if we believe in the Bible only and that no man has the authority to give us religious wisdom we are basically saying Jesus has deceived us.

So, what the Protestants say is that you only go to Heaven if you 1) believe in Jesus, and 2) you come closer to Jesus through the Bible. Well they are condemning

Another interesting thing to point out is that, if there is absolute truth (which most Christians believe besides Universalitarians) then how can one Protestant say that there is one way to do something and another Protestant says there is another way to do it, obviously one or both of them have to be wrong. As well St. Paul warned us that no Private Interpretation would survive. So out of the 500 Protestant churches to come alive how many have survived, with the original doctrine, and the even the original name?[/quote]

I will agree that Jesus gave us the Church. He gave us the catholic church not the Catholic Church. Some of the first Bishops were part of the Orthodox Church headed in Constantinople. The Catholic Church became Political in nature and tied themselves by claiming apostolic succession from St. Peter. They also Excommunicated the Patricarch of the Orthodox Church. The Patricarch was part of the churches first founded by Paul. The church in Rome did not come about until he was arrested, so claiming that the Catholic Church was first is up to interpretation.
[/quote]

That is why the Catholic Church and the Orthodox churches are communicating to bring the Church into harmony. Yes the catholic church is all those baptized in the Trinity. However not all of them follow the Church and it’s bible. How do you differ between the catholic church and the Catholic Church, since there is no invisible church and only a physical church, obvious there would need to be (now) a physical church of Apostles to listen to, correct me if I am wrong. Yes, the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church Excommunicated the Roman Catholic Church as well. However only the Roman Catholic Church stayed were St. Peter was. The Catholic Church does not officially declare that all Orthodox Churches are true churches however they do hint at it because there is still some issues of doctrine to discuss. On that note, there are some Orthodox Churches the Catholic Church recognizes some of their Sacraments or “Mysteries.”

Yes, that is true the Bible which is held as true by the Catholic Church is the benchmark, all others are subject to suspect. The Catholic Church however does not contradict the Bible. Even the simplest thing as infant baptism does not contradict (even though that is one of the things we are most criticized for) as it has a practical reason, yet still meets baptismal requirements from the Bible.

Yes, that is true but the Apostles are still alive (not the originals, but the descendants and the heirs) today in the Catholic Church and from the Catholic perspective some of the Orthodox patriarchs.

I am not denying the Bible, I am just telling the blunt truth. The Bible came after the Apostles, the Apostles wrote more down than just the Bible. The other stuff is the doctrine of the Church. So, you take the Bible, the Church, and the doctrine of the Church.

[quote]

You also talk about name changes from the begining. Did not St. Peter get a name change from Jesus. Did St. Paul get a name change from Jesus.

I am not trying to say you are wrong, I just want you to think, and not just follow what the Priest says. I have read through the Bible twice and I was given a Catholic Bible for Christmas to read through. I am going to read through the Apocropha books first because I have never read them.[/quote]

I think most people do not realise it but there is doctrine in the Catholic Church that states that the people’s conscious is above the Church’s teaching. An explanation is necessary, God gave you free will, so it would be wrong for the Church to say they override your conscious in a matter. They do not deny they are correct, however you have to consciously follow the Church/Bible/Doctrine by freewill. This is as well in case if the Church misleads their followers, and the followers do not make a conscious decision to follow, then the Church is erasing all good they have done. However if the Church has pretense that they are only followed through free will, then the mistakes in teachings can be forgiven.

Take it to the simple example of a Priest not teaching correctly, the Priest is found to be a Heretic. Well if you have a freewill (plus knowledge) you will not follow the Priest and you as a follower of the Catholic Church will not be mislead.

The Church did in the past not want their followers to study anything and just listen to what was told to them, however now they have seen that with the power of the Catholic Church that such things as Anti-Popes have come in and mislead the followers. So they now ‘demand’ that laity study and understand doctrine for themselves as well as listen to representatives of the Catholic Church.

[quote]ckallander wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
To ckallander: It is one thing to do good during your life, but what about the bad things you do in your life? Does not the bad things out weigh the good? What is your definition of “being Good.” I am glad you are a good person, but the Bible does not teach that being good gets you to heaven. I dont know about you, but I really can not rely on myself to get me to heaven. I mess up all the time, and it really out weighs all the good I do. [/quote]

I really shouldn’t be poking my nose in your faith and really just posted that little blurb as a joke. I don’t believe in a god, heaven or hell. I do believe in this one phrase or whatever you guys call it:

Matthew 7:12 “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”

I believe in cause and effect and reincarnation. I know, I know it’s bullshit to you people, whatever. I just wish every person in this world would follow this fundamental belief.

I don’t view good and bad as quantities that cancel out each other.

I’ve always had a question about all this god stuff though, maybe one of you could answer?

If there is a god and he truly is against homosexuals and abortion and all the things the religious right says he’s against, then why did he create it? If he is all powerful then wont he win in the end anyway? Why do humans have to do god’s work? I mean, what work has to be done anyway? I don’t understand that at all. The thing is, we are told gold is so unbelievably powerful that we can’t even comprehend his abilities. Yet, here I am, a nonbeliever, made in his image, doing exactly what he wants me to do because after all, he KNOWS what I am going to do anyway. He is all powerful. I’m not trying to discredit your beliefs but it just seems illogical to me. I know he works in divine ways and whatnot and we aren’t smart enough to comprehend his plans, but it just seems a but silly don’t you think?

[/quote]

Finally, someone who gets the point. To bad for us Christians that the someone is one who doesn’t not beleive.

thatnk you…I think I will make t-shirts of that:

Matthew 7:12 “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
May I ask what the Apostle’s Creed?[/quote]
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;

He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead;

He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.

Amen.
[/quote]

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
Creator of Heaven and Earth
And in Jesus Christ
His only Son, Our Lord
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit
Born of the Virgin Mary
Suffered under Pontius Pilate
Was crucified, died and was buried.
On the third day, he rose again
He ascended into Heaven
and is seated at the right hand
of God, the Father Almighty.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the Communion of Saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Amen.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ckallander wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
The bible doesn’t say that hell is a place of torment. It is just the common grave, where you would be going anyway when you die. No harm no foul.[/quote]

Really? This is complete news to me. As you know, it is somewhat of a common misconception then that hell is quite a painful place. So, are you saying it’s more like a purgatory?
[/quote]

I have personally not found any evidence of a purgatory in the Bible. “Hell” is just the grave. plain and simple. when you die, no matter what you did, you go to the grave, just like Adam and Eve did.

Romans 6:23

“For the wages sin pays is death.”

Once you die, that is complete payment for the sin that you inherited.[/quote]

Well instead of saying you have not found evidence in the Bible of purgatory, go to the folks that have been spreading this word for over 1900 years and that do say there is purgatory and ask them to show you. The proof is there, the Catholic Church has come to terms that some people will not listen (at least outside of the Church) unless it comes from the Bible and elaborated on in the past.

What I think most people misunderstand and cannot grasp is that the first Catholic Bishops wrote the New Testament. It was determined to be divinely written. However, when this was established we did not know everything about our religion. Through the years we have learned more and more about our religion and thus writing our doctrine on Catholic wisdom and Biblical knowledge. So the Church created the Bible it also created other doctrine, so why would we not listen to the other Doctrine if Jesus tells us to listen to the doctrine of the Church. All doctrine is, is what the Apostles have passed down onto future generations about the religion and how it should be done.[/quote]

If doctrine is not based on the Bible, which was written by the apostles, then the Catholic Church is not listening to the Apostles. Doctrines can be used as political power and Jesus never wanted Political Power. Look at the Doctrine of Endulgences does the Catholic Church still believe that? Well the Popes of that time period set it as Doctrine, and if you do not follow that then you are a Heretic by your own rules. God gave us a brain to think about these things. He also gave us a guide in the Bible. Most Protestants follow the New Testament, and as I see the New Testament is the same in both the Catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible. The differences are in the Old Testament which was before Jesus. I am not saying we should not look at the Old Testament or follow its teachings, but we are more alike than you are giving credit. The Protestants are your friends, and if someone is telling you that you will go to hell because you are Catholic, then they are wrong. Look at the Apostles Creed. That is what we base our hopes, and faith in. That is no different from being Catholic or Protestant. We are splitting hairs on all the other stuff. The Apostles Creed is the definition of a Christian.

The catholic chruch includes both Catholic and Protestant.[/quote]

I would like you to explain your idea of the catholic church vs. The Catholic Church.

[quote]wher0001 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]wher0001 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]wher0001 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ckallander wrote:
Up the punks![/quote]

The bible doesn’t say that hell is a place of torment. It is just the common grave, where you would be going anyway when you die. No harm no foul.[/quote]

He is correct as far as the scholars are concerned.
http://www.harvestherald.com/pdf/eternal_torment_not_scriptural.pdf

However, it does say that we will be judged by our actions and that is the point of being good to others. It also doesn’t help to not be an a-hole!
[/quote]

2 commands:

Love God and love your neighbor - See John 13:34,35.

Now, to be pleasing to God, you need to do what His will is.

1 John 5:3

For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome.
[/quote]

And IMO, the ten commandments boil down to don’t be an a-hole. To understand any one religion, we must understand them all. I have studied many religions, including but not limited to: Buddism, Catholicism (confirmed), Baptist, Protestant, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Mormon, Hindu, Muslim(Moslem), The Watchtower People…they all say the same thing. DON’T BE AN A-HOLE!

In response, some say if you do act like an a-hole Karma will get you, but in ours (Christian) is says that you will die and go to hell. I still have never seen anything in any ORIGINAL translation of the bible about Purgatory, however I could care less. If God/Jesus/The Holy Ghost have a problem with me due to the fact that I DO believe in them and simply obey the ten Commandments and could care less about all of the mumbo-jumbo associated with the Catholic Tradition, then I guess I will find out a little too late. Oh freakin’ well.

[/quote]

That is a personal opinion I guess. I feel the need to point out that, although the Ten commandments are important, they are no longer the ‘LAW’ that we are under. We are under Christ’s Law, which is found in the Greek Scriptures, or the New Testament.[/quote]

I hope you are not trying to imply that Christ’s Law dos not include the Ten Commandments.

My point from the beginning is that I don’t believe anyone should be wasting their time trying to understand the deep-rooted theological reasoning for anything in the bible. If you are a good person and are not let into heaven under the divine grace a any God, then the point of that God’s existence is an incoherent fallacy in and of itself.[/quote]

The 10 Commandments are important: They have been included in the Greek Scriptures under Christ’s Law to prove it.

To think, though, that you are getting into God’s favor JUST because you are a ‘good person’ is NOT consistent with the Bible’s message and therefore is just not true.

[quote]ckallander wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
The bible doesn’t say that hell is a place of torment. It is just the common grave, where you would be going anyway when you die. No harm no foul.[/quote]

Really? This is complete news to me. As you know, it is somewhat of a common misconception then that hell is quite a painful place. So, are you saying it’s more like a purgatory?
[/quote]

Hell and Purgatory are very similar if not in the same place. Both are below us, because you go to both for things that are even below God’s creation (animals), both involve fire.

The difference is that you go to Hell for eternity with other punishments like brimstone, winds, darkness, etc. (which you go deeper into this place below purgatory), while Purgatory you are there for the final sanctification or cleansing of sins before you go to Heaven. However, time does not exist in the afterlife as we know it, however you leave Purgatory you do not leave Hell.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Mr octurbo wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ckallander wrote:
Up the punks![/quote]

The bible doesn’t say that hell is a place of torment. It is just the common grave, where you would be going anyway when you die. No harm no foul.[/quote]

Revelation 20:15
If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

does not fire burn and hurt?[/quote]

you are right it does say that. may i point out that the book of revelation is filled with symbolism. take a look a what else was thrown into the lake of fire:

Revelation 20:14 (previous verse)

“And death and Ha’des were hurled into the lake of fire. this means the second death, the lake of fire.”

How can death be thrown into a lake of fire?[/quote]

I am not saying I can interpret the Book of Apocalypse, however I do assume death is the power that the Devil has over us before Jesus defeated death.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
1 Corinthians 4:6

Now, brothers, these things I have transferred so as to apply to myself and Apolos for YOUR good, that in our case YOU may learn the [rule]: “Do not go beyond the things that are written.”

What is contained in the Bible is the final word. If something is written that disagrees with it, you must go to the Bible for the Authority on the answer.

[/quote]

I think to say the Bible is the final word is heavy to say at the least. If it was the Final word, then no further knowledge of our religion would be necessary and against the rules. However, with doctrine you can teach further about the religion and still stay with what Jesus gave us. I am not saying that doctrine can contradict the Bible, I am however saying that doctrine expands further with theology, etc.

[quote]ckallander wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
To ckallander: It is one thing to do good during your life, but what about the bad things you do in your life? Does not the bad things out weigh the good? What is your definition of “being Good.” I am glad you are a good person, but the Bible does not teach that being good gets you to heaven. I dont know about you, but I really can not rely on myself to get me to heaven. I mess up all the time, and it really out weighs all the good I do. [/quote]

I really shouldn’t be poking my nose in your faith and really just posted that little blurb as a joke. I don’t believe in a god, heaven or hell. I do believe in this one phrase or whatever you guys call it:

Matthew 7:12 “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”

I believe in cause and effect and reincarnation. I know, I know it’s bullshit to you people, whatever. I just wish every person in this world would follow this fundamental belief.

I don’t view good and bad as quantities that cancel out each other.

I’ve always had a question about all this god stuff though, maybe one of you could answer?

If there is a god and he truly is against homosexuals and abortion and all the things the religious right says he’s against, then why did he create it? If he is all powerful then wont he win in the end anyway? Why do humans have to do god’s work? I mean, what work has to be done anyway? I don’t understand that at all. The thing is, we are told gold is so unbelievably powerful that we can’t even comprehend his abilities. Yet, here I am, a nonbeliever, made in his image, doing exactly what he wants me to do because after all, he KNOWS what I am going to do anyway. He is all powerful. I’m not trying to discredit your beliefs but it just seems illogical to me. I know he works in divine ways and whatnot and we aren’t smart enough to comprehend his plans, but it just seems a but silly don’t you think?

[/quote]

If you ask this one question at a time I would be happy to address it.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
If doctrine is not based on the Bible, which was written by the apostles, then the Catholic Church is not listening to the Apostles. [/quote]

May I try to explain how Catholics see things so we can have a basis for discussion?

The Church already existed at the time of Christ’s Death, Resurrection, and Ascension.

The Church were the Apostles, their followers, and their practices and beliefs.

The Scriptures were written down to record and codify what they were already doing and teaching - again, the Church.

Finally, we believe those Apostles are still among us in an unbroken line; and that Divine Truth continues to be revealed to us, albeit very slowly. This is, in part, what we mean by the “mystical body Christ,” including the Communion of Saints, etc.

And, nb: if the Scriptures were intended to be treated Sola Scriptura, then somewhere in the text, someone would have written: this is the law and the only law.

[/quote]

I am not trying to be an a-hole just trying to understand.

Even if the doctrine contradicts what we know Jesus to have told us, and what the Bible tells us? To my knowledge that is heresy. Am I wrong?

I can understand what you are saying about the apostolic succession, but if the new pope who succeeded the previous pope never knew the previous pope then how does that work? How can there be a line if the person was not trained by that person? If this is true would not Pope Benedict be able to heal the masses? There are countless stories of the first apostles healing many people, but the most resent Popes do not have that ability.

This is very simplified and does not involve the supernatural of God, but are you saying that President Obama succeeded President Washington, and Obama has all the knowledge of Washington? [/quote]

All the Bishops in the world worked under the Bishops before them or a Bishop from another area. When they become Pope instead of homesteading in their native lands they go to Rome. The Bishops are the Apostles, however the Pope is under the office of St. Peter, therefore the lineage of St. Peter is still in effect.

[quote]wher0001 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]wher0001 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ckallander wrote:
Up the punks![/quote]

The bible doesn’t say that hell is a place of torment. It is just the common grave, where you would be going anyway when you die. No harm no foul.[/quote]

He is correct as far as the scholars are concerned.
http://www.harvestherald.com/pdf/eternal_torment_not_scriptural.pdf

However, it does say that we will be judged by our actions and that is the point of being good to others. It also doesn’t help to not be an a-hole!
[/quote]

2 commands:

Love God and love your neighbor - See John 13:34,35.

Now, to be pleasing to God, you need to do what His will is.

1 John 5:3

For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome.
[/quote]

And IMO, the ten commandments boil down to don’t be an a-hole. To understand any one religion, we must understand them all. I have studied many religions, including but not limited to: Buddism, Catholicism (confirmed), Baptist, Protestant, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Mormon, Hindu, Muslim(Moslem), The Watchtower People…they all say the same thing. DON’T BE AN A-HOLE!

In response, some say if you do act like an a-hole Karma will get you, but in ours (Christian) is says that you will die and go to hell. I still have never seen anything in any ORIGINAL translation of the bible about Purgatory, however I could care less. If God/Jesus/The Holy Ghost have a problem with me due to the fact that I DO believe in them and simply obey the ten Commandments and could care less about all of the mumbo-jumbo associated with the Catholic Tradition, then I guess I will find out a little too late. Oh freakin’ well.

[/quote]

That is a little bit of a bad attitude towards things. I once was a Bible Catholic once, however since I have started to study my religion (as well as others) I have become more fulfilled by completing my duties to Christ as the Church prescribes.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
If doctrine is not based on the Bible, which was written by the apostles, then the Catholic Church is not listening to the Apostles. [/quote]

May I try to explain how Catholics see things so we can have a basis for discussion?

The Church already existed at the time of Christ’s Death, Resurrection, and Ascension.

The Church were the Apostles, their followers, and their practices and beliefs.

The Scriptures were written down to record and codify what they were already doing and teaching - again, the Church.

Finally, we believe those Apostles are still among us in an unbroken line; and that Divine Truth continues to be revealed to us, albeit very slowly. This is, in part, what we mean by the “mystical body Christ,” including the Communion of Saints, etc.

And, nb: if the Scriptures were intended to be treated Sola Scriptura, then somewhere in the text, someone would have written: this is the law and the only law.

[/quote]

I am not saying that the Bible is to be treated Sola Scriptura, but what I am saying is that the Bible is a guide to keep us on the path. If any new doctrine is not based in scripture and even contradicts scripture then that new doctrine is heresy. The early church threw out countless books written because they did not follow the teachings of the apostles which those teachings we have in the scriptures. Am I wrong?[/quote]

You are correct, however without those teachings that include divine reason (theology) and other knowledge of tradition then you are easy to fall into heresy and error.