[quote]rainjack wrote:
Jay Sherman wrote:
Jesus christ! If you’re stronger you can swing faster. How fucking hard is that to understand?
Then why the fuck isn’t Arnold the Home Run King? Why hasn’t Ron Coleman won the Triple Fucking Crown? How many dingers has Dave Tate had? It ain’t all about the strength.
I’m waiting for just one of you know-it-all motherfuckers to come up with some goddamn proof that AAS increases hand-eye coordination.
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Nobody is going to. But their responses are also valid. While not absolutely aiding hand-eye, it does improve many other facets of the swing and these most certainly aid in power. You are correct it’s not just power, to my knowlege noone said so. Your desire to “not blame steroids” and “witch hunts” has allowed you to lose focus on the question–“Did the taking(potentially) of steroids aid Bonds?”
The answer is an unequivocal–ABSOLUTELY
His own stats history would be all the empirical evidence anyone should need.
One point I see missing is IMHO a huge problem with society itself. Why, regardless of what Bonds has put in his body, is it not ok to be the best. Our country is turning into a society of pussies where anything or anyone out of the norm is automatically put in a category of freak. Barry Bonds is a great, if not the greatest, baseball player ever. His desire to stay ahead of everyone else in baseball and to be the best must be commended.
[quote]Axel wrote:
Check out the difference in Shaq’s head size between his last year in college and now.[/quote]
If you actually click through Bond’s year by year pictures, it is not a gradual thing. In 1999 all the sudden his neck is a couple of inches thicker. He still didn’t look like much though. But in 2000 he suddenly has huge forearms. And the guy in 2001 is just not the same guy.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
The use of AAS may have helped him develop a more powerful swing, but it has little affect on his slugging % - or his ability to make contact with a pitch.
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With regard to not affecting slugging %, I’d say wrong. Before AAS, any mediocre contact by Bonds likely resulted in a lazy fly ball to shallow center for an out. After AAS, that same “mediocre” contact could now be “muscled” over the center fielder’s head, off the wall for a double or even over the wall for a home-run. (I’ve seen a lot of balls coming off of Bonds’ bat that looked like a routine fly ball only to see it clear the yard by five rows in the bleachers.)
And that’s how a slugging % can go up – when a routine out or single gets turned into a double or more.
But I agree. Bonds had superb hand-eye coordination even before the AAS. And that’s what makes him a great hitter.
[quote]TeeVee69 wrote:
Bonds had superb hand-eye coordination even before the AAS. And that’s what makes him a great hitter.[/quote]
This is all I’m trying to say about Bonds’ ability to hit.
He has had only 4 seasons out of 19 in which he had more than 90 strikeouts. One of those was his rookie year (102) and another was 2001 (93). His ability to “see the ball - hit the ball” was not increased by the use of AAS. The empirical data just doesn’t support that assertion.
But I misspoke wrt slugging percentage, and I apologize for that.
This whole argument about whether steroids affect hand-eye coordination is a complete red herring. Whether they do or whether they don’t is completely beside the point; the issue is whether steroids aided in Bonds’ sudden power surge and record-setting season(s), and that is pretty undeniable. Of course he’d be a great player either way, of course he has unreal hand-eye coordination, blah blah blah. Obviously, the steroids don’t hit the ball for him, much like the old line, might be Louie Simmons’, about having never seen a syringe of steroids bench press a barbell. The issue is how much steroids can increase your natural ability to perform a physical feat, and I don’t think there’s too much argument on that point.
And as for our wussy society tearing down Bonds because of his accomplishments, please. No one ever went after Mac or Sammy after their huge seasons, until the evidence of steroids became impossible to ignore, and no one, aside from the sleazy French press, goes after Lance Armstrong. If Barry Bonds has been singled out for special treatment, it’s because he’s an unlikable asshole.
[quote]BrianS wrote:
One point I see missing is IMHO a huge problem with society itself. Why, regardless of what Bonds has put in his body, is it not ok to be the best. Our country is turning into a society of pussies where anything or anyone out of the norm is automatically put in a category of freak. Barry Bonds is a great, if not the greatest, baseball player ever. His desire to stay ahead of everyone else in baseball and to be the best must be commended.[/quote]
Here’s a hypothetical situation:
You (BrianS) and I are going to compete against one another. (in anything, it doesn’t matter.)
We agree upon rules of our competition.
You cheat and break the rules and defeat me. You perform better than I do because of an UNFAIR advantage, remember we had rules.
Are you to be commended for “winning”? Should we applaud your “desire to be the best” even though you broke the rules to outperform someone? If you cheated, are you really the best?
I believe in wanting to be the best. I also believe in being honorable in competition.
Bonds is one of the best, but in my opinion he brought dishonor to his accomplishments by breaking baseball’s rules.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
If Barry Bonds has been singled out for special treatment, it’s because he’s an unlikable asshole.[/quote]
Bing-o.
And those photos I do think tell a lot of the story. His ability to hit a baseball has always been excellent and he was (even before 1999) one of baseball’s greats (a classic 5 tool player)… but he then did not even look like the same human being after that. The sad thing is that Bonds would have still been great but for his alleged juicing. Now? There’s a black cloud over the last 15 years. What stats are valid? How can you compare players any more from that time period? I mean, outside of Vlad Guerrero, what slugger do you have that much confidence in that he was not juicing?
But the McGwire thing is just sad. I mean, he would have been better off just coming clean as opposed to putting up this whole “I want to help out any way I can… ohh, what did I personally do? Well, I’m not here to talk about the past” thing. That just made it all that much worse.
The point I was trying to make was that the reality of MLB is that most of the top players are doing something. In order to stay with or ahead of the pack, Bonds juiced. I’m definately not saying that it is fair and yes it is cheating. Just trying to look at it from Bonds point of view. I also agree that it is not fair to the players who choose to be clean. Regardless, you are right that with or with out drugs, Bonds is still one of the best.
major league hitters have great hand-eye coordination as it is. thats why they are in the big’s. have you ever played? do you not realize that being stronger and faster can increase your batspeed?
now pay attention… do you not realize that having greater batspeed and the ability to react faster allows you to sit on pitches an extra fraction of a second, giving you more time to read, recognize and react? now explain to me how the fuck that is not related directly to the old adage of “see the ball, hit the ball”? if you please.
you have stated that steroids cannot help with hand-eye coordination and the ability to hit a baseball. fair enough, and true only to a degree.
you just forgot to mention the increased strength, speed, stamina, and improved reaction time that steroids can provide.
Call me crazy, but it might affect insignificant little things like bat speed, timing and the increased amount of available time to see the pitch (due to a quicker bat). those things ARE directly related to a players ability to “see the ball, hit the ball”, or hand-eye coordination.
interested to see a knowledgeable/logical rebuttle to that please.
[quote]juice20jd wrote:
Call me crazy, but it might affect insignificant little things like bat speed, timing and the increased amount of available time to see the pitch (due to a quicker bat). those things ARE directly related to a players ability to “see the ball, hit the ball”, or hand-eye coordination.
interested to see a knowledgeable/logical rebuttle to that please.
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Okay - I’ve referenced this earlier, but I’ll actually post the info here so you can actullay see the data that supports my contention that ‘see the ball - hit the ball’ seems to be affected very little, if at all, by AAS.
For clarity’s sake I am referring to the ability to make contact. To get the bat on the ball. I’m not talking about the added power that AAS is undeniably linked to, just Bonds’ ability to make contact.
The table below is the year followed by the number of strikeouts:
Folks depending on pictoral evidence of juicing say that he got way bigger between the 1998 and 1999 seasons. It has only been in the last 3 seasons that you see a lower strikeout total, with 2003 not being that much of a decrease. He had the second highest S.O. total of his career in 2001.
My point is this, and I will not bother you experts with my petty gripes any further: If AAS truly aided his ability to make contact then would should have seen a staedy decrease in S.O.'s since 1999. That is not the case. He averages 75 K’s per season, and it has only been the last 3 that he has stayed under tha average - a full 3 seasons AFTER he started making noticable differences in his physique.
i think my last post is a very valid and true argument to support the FACT that AAS can provide ANY (not just bonds) hitter the advantage of having a greater window of time to effectively read and react to pitches…and isn’t that what “see the ball, hit the ball” is all about??? is it not safe to assume that if a player has an increased amount of time to see and react to a pitch, that he has a greater chance of making solid contact. anyone?..anyone? i still have not seen you directly defeat that argument.
saying his K’s would have decreased gives no credit to the ability of major league level pitchers to fool hitters.
but that aside…check out these stats.
yes his K’s/AB ratios have remained similar over the years. and he has been a consistent producer. no one is knocking the guy’s obvious natural gifts. but take a close look at the years 2000-2004 (when the steroid suspicions surfaced)… the quality of his contact has drastically increased as evidenced by the elevated average, astronomical slugging percentages, home run to AB ratios and power numbers.
i guess we’ll have to just agree to disagree on this.
I agree that we will probably never see eye to eye on this subject, but I’m having fun anyhow.
Barry Bonds has a career strike out percentage of 15.7%. He will K 15 times for every 100 AB’s. Listed below are his K% for the last 5 seasons and the average K% for that time frame - which we agree that AAS helped him hit the ball harder and farther: AB_________K______%______
2004 373 41 0.109919571
2003 390 58 0.148717949
2002 403 47 0.11662531
2001 476 93 0.195378151
2000 480 77 0.160416667
Tot 2122 316 0.148916117
My contention is that if AAS improved his ability to make contact, we would see his K% drop as dramatically as his slugging % and HR totals have increased over that same time period.
He has only 2 seasons - 2002, and 2004 in which his K% dropped in an abnormal fashion. Was it the AAS, or was it training, or was it the fact that pitchers were scared shitless of him?
Hand-eye coordination may not be directly increased, but more strength means more bat speed and more power.
Of course bodybuilders aren’t gonna win a homerun derby because you have to have the skill in the first place. I think what others have been saying is that all other things being equal, steroids will give the user the advantage.
You can’t just chalk up all his homers to hand-eye coordination. Look at Tony Gwynn, the dude was an unbeleivable hitter with terrific hand-eye coordination. But he didn’t have the power to make him a slugger.
I don’t think anyone would question Bonds’ pure hitting ability. But it’s pretty obvious that his power was markedly increased by steroids.
There are other advantages as well, such as increased recovery and confidence. At his age, he’s probably staved off a few injuries and come back quicker with steroids.
And as his power increased, he probably became more confident at the plate which can be a big factor - just ask anyone who’s gone through a major slump.
Even players themselves admit that steroids give them an advantage. Look at how many players have come out and called Canseco’s career and particularly his MVP season a sham because of his usage. They’re around it and they can see the obvious difference in players after they start using.
Don’t throw Frank Thomas’s name in there with the other guys…the guy was a tight end at auburn, and hasn’t really grown much in the last 15 years…
He’s commented a number of times about how guys have shot past him in recent years…the guy was on pace to be one of the great hitters of all time, and then guys like sosa, boone, palmeiro, etc…started putting up monster numbers…you haven’t seen that with Frank…
He’s been a strong and vocal advocate of testing for a while now…players like thomas and griffey have been the real victims of the steroid era…
[quote]rainjack wrote:
juice20jd wrote:
hand-eye" is both a mental AND physical attribute. an athlete can improve the execution of the mental through enhancing the physical. so technically it has improved his “hand-eye coordination”…i feel like i’m taking crazy pills! does no one else see this synergistic relationship?
I understand what you are saying. I just disagree with you on AAS affect on hand-eye coordination.
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Rainjack,
Bonds DID have the hand eye coordination when he was a skinny singles hitter early in his career. The juice made his “warning track power” into the blasts you see him hit today. It’s unfortunate that Bonds chose to taint his career, as I believe he would have been a Hall of Famer without the help. His ego and lust for power got the best of him.
As for the hand eye coordination improved by steroids? They DO improve neuroreceptor response, but you need the base to build on (which is why Ron Coleman will never wear pinstripes). As I said earlier, Bonds HAD that base.
