The Case Against Israel's Enemies

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]Odogg wrote:

[quote]phaethon wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:

Another problem is, people have an idea of ownership over the land and they think that their right to the land is more important than someone else’s life. I don’t understand that. If someone wanted to take my land, to the point of bloodshed, I would move or join them. It’s simply not worth it. [/quote]

Some people are willing to die to protect what they have worked for.

If I wanted to make you my slave for 25 hours a week, for the next 20 years, and I was willing to be extremely violent about it, would you fight? What if I was a kind master and just made you work in my fields for those 25 hours?

I invested 25 hours a week, for the last 20 years, in mortgage payments on my home. And if somebody takes that, I have worked all those years for nothing. If it was my fault, then I might be able to stomach the loss. Otherwise…
[/quote]

Uhh, so the palestinian farmers and others who farmed the land Israel took after WWII don’t count? I just don’t understand why the indigenous people of that land had to pay the price for white european guilt. Those people are still pissed off and the Arab leaders fan the flames to make it a political issue.

/sarcasm on
Its hard work to pull off that colonial sh*t these days, you know with TV, newspapers, internet and such.
/sarcasm off
[/quote]

Let me try to explain some misapprehentions you have:

  1. The so-called Palestinians are not indigenous. Arabs living outside the Arabian peninsular are colonialists/imperialists/slave traders.

  2. The so-called Palestinians are of mixed ethnicity comprising Arabs, Egyptians, Iraqis etc

  3. 95% of the so-called Palestinians currently living in Gaza/WB/Israel are descendants of immigrants who arrived after the 1880’s. The ones who ‘farmed’ anything were only able to do so because the indigenous Jewish population already living there and the Jewish refugee settlers began to irrigate the desert and build canals.

  4. Numerous historians, travellers and writers(including Mark Twain) visited the area in the early 19th century and described it as ‘empty desert’ with a few wandering Bedouin.

  5. Whilst it cannot be proved with certainty there is no reason to believe that Jews have not been living continuously in Israel for thousands of years. Whilst the Romans exiled the Jews in 135AD it is emtremely unlikely that some who had collaborated with the Romans did not remain.

  6. Ancient Jewish communities were living throughout the Arabian peninsular including Medina and were terrorised, murdered and exiled by Moohamhead and his successors.

  7. The Imperialist invaders from the ‘Arabian entity’ that arrived during the Islamic conquests have been implementing pogroms on the indigenous Jews ever since. Under Ottoman rule Jews were treated ‘worse than dogs’ according to the British ambassador of the time.

  8. The words ‘Palestinian people’ do not appear anywhere in any text anywhere in the world written prior to 1967. Prior to this particular unprovoked Arab war against Israel the so-called Palestinains referred to themselves as Syrians, Egyptians or Iraqis.

So please don’t make the mistake of calling the Arab colonialists in Israel/Gaza/WB ‘indigenous’.

42

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
You know what the real problem with this issue is? There is un-excusable slaughter of humanity happening as a result of every side giving an opinion about this, and for this reason it’s nearly impossible to find un-biased information about it.

Another problem is, people have an idea of ownership over the land and they think that their right to the land is more important than someone else’s life. I don’t understand that. If someone wanted to take my land, to the point of bloodshed, I would move or join them. It’s simply not worth it. [/quote]

Let me get this straight. We(i.e. United States and Western democracies) share equal responsibility for the FIVE unprovoked wars that were launched against Israel, the Iranian hostage crisis, the truck bombing of US Marine barracks in the Lebanon, the East Africa Embassy bombings, the world trade centre truck bombing, 9/11, the London 7/7 attacks, the Bali bombings, the Jakarta bombings, the Madrid subway bombings, the suicide bombings/rockets/rampages in Israel, the Beslan school massacre, the Mumbai attacks and the daily beheadings and torture-murders of ‘Infidels’ because we have been ‘giving an opinion about this’?

Let me try to understand your next point. If a hostile enemy wants to invade your country with the stated purpose of exterminating your ethnic group, you should hand your country over to them and somehow resettle your entire population somewhere else so nobody gets hurt?

Next![/quote]

The reason why there is a war right now is because the United Nations attempted to hand over what’s now Israel to two different ethnic groups, Israel immediately claimed independence, and the surrounding countries all attacked at once. The United Nations help Jews from all over the world travel back to Israel and they (Israeli) pushed the Palestines, who’d been living there for 500 years, out.

So in other words, if there had been more of a fair settlement of the land which was enforced, perhaps there wouldn’t be as much of a problem over there. Now, the idea wasn’t for Israel to take over, from what I understand, but the fact is that we’ve aided Israel in their efforts to lay complete claim to that land.

On the other side, Jews have been hated and displaced for thousands of years and many wish to see them have a place to call home. What they’re doing right now blatantly violates the human rights agreement of the United Nations, though.

And yes, I would move an entire population if someone was trying to lay claim to an area. Do you really think that blood shed, starvation, and your life are less important than the land? That’s stupid, IMO. Land-rights should never be more important than someone’s life. I would not tell my child to fight for their land; they are much more important than a plot of soil with history.[/quote]

Firstly, the UN created an Arab state called Jordan and gave it to them. Jordan is THE Palestianian state. Secondly, Ben Gurion encouraged the Arabs to stay(big mistake) and many did. The ones who didn’t were encouraged to leave by the invading Arab armies to clear the way for the extermination(I concede there were a small number of expulsions, see Benny Morris).

Thirdly, how do you propose this ethnic cleansing of Israel should take place? Where will the Jews of Israel go to? Won’t this just encourage further conquests by the invaders as giving Austria, the Sudetenland and then the rest of Czechoslavakia encouraged Hitler? Isn’t appeasement and allowing anti-Semitic forces to steal other peoples’ land how WWII started?

43

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]ReignIB wrote:
this is the land that is considered sacred by both Jews and Muslims. Jews are OK with sharing it. Muslims are not.

[/quote]

Actually, there is little in Israel that is considered “sacred” in Islam.

The whole thing about the Al-Asqa mosque (the mosque on the Temple Mount — you know, located of Abraham & Issac almost sacrifice, Solomon’s Temple, the “Second” Temple) etc being the “third holiest site in Islam” is nonsense that was cooked up in 1960s by the PLO.

They claim the Al Asqua is the “distant” mosque where Mohammed flew his magic horse Barrack.

Well, this is a new claim, but anyone with a history book would notice that the Al-Asqua was built AFTER MOHAMMED WAS DEAD – so (ignoring the whole magic horse thing) it’s impossible.

I mean, Jerusalem wasn’t even mentioned a single time in the koran — no connection whatsoever. [/quote]

I think what other people consider to be holy is not really up to you to decide.
[/quote]

No, but what he says is the truth, their reason for it being Holy is false.[/quote]

Oh my…

44

A lot of people believe that your reason for it being holy is false too. And the Jews’.
[/quote]

Yes but we(Christians) have actually been claiming it as holy for quite a long time. Certainly for more than 44 years, if memory serves me correctly. Also, we didn’t have to re-interpret an obscure reference from our religious texts to make it so.

45

[quote]phaethon wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]phaethon wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
And yes, I would move an entire population if someone was trying to lay claim to an area. Do you really think that blood shed, starvation, and your life are less important than the land? That’s stupid, IMO. Land-rights should never be more important than someone’s life. I would not tell my child to fight for their land; they are much more important than a plot of soil with history.[/quote]

Bullshit. If I tried to lay claim to your home using violence you wouldn’t just give it to me. You would call the police and they would use violence against my violence. There is no fucking chance you would just leave and give me your house.

So instead of being violent yourself you just subcontract it out to others.[/quote]

I like how you act like what you would do is what I would do.

Fact: I have been in a situation where I was the only one paying rent on a place (and weirdly, it was one of the nicest houses I’ve lived in). The situation in this place was terrible and one of the room mates made it a very violent, dangerous place. I did not call the cops. I left.

I say with complete honesty that if my family’s safety was threatened, I would leave. Also, history has favored the people who left first.

Not everyone considers where they live a part of themselves. [/quote]

Because you rent. What if 20 years of your life was tied up in your land? Would you still feel the same way? I doubt it. Would you let me follow you around and take 40-60% of your income each year for the next 20 years? I highly fucking doubt it.[/quote]

lol. You do realize that unless you own your own business in America, the government is currently taking over 50% of your income in taxes, right? I didn’t learn that from some bullshit political source either; that was week six of college accounting: payroll. I’ve never seen a class so close to rioting, but yeah, it’s happening to all of us every day.

Here’s the thing you aren’t grasping: the Palestinians aren’t going to win. They don’t stand a chance. If I was them, reduced to throwing rocks in the face of machine guns and sending my 15 year old daughter to suicide bomb, I would leave. What is the point of fighting for years and years worth of property if you’re just going to die. In you’re little scenario, you obviously assume that you’re going to live. Me, I’d rather live with a property loss and all of my family alive. Really, what’s the point in fighting for the land when there is so much bloodshed? Years of your kids lives are gone; they will not look back on a happy childhood.

Also, I’m not proposing that there’s an extermination of either side. The UN massively failed it’s little country making effort and then jumped back like “well whoops, hope this sorts itself out.” I personally think it should offer huge monetary rewards for individual members of either side to move if they want, but carefully trace the spending of that money to make sure it doesn’t turn into a weapon. Anyone who demonstrates peaceful conduct or solutions should be rewarded. For a short while, I imagine this would result in either side trying to trick the UN into giving them cash for war, but in the long term, greed would take over, like it already has, but to a different end. Either that, or those stuck in the war who don’t want to be there would have the opportunity to leave and the reduced number of people would have a shorter war. Either way, those who want out should be given be given enough to get to where they want to go.

46

I believe these people are really into hating and fighting each other more than they want peace. Yes, I agree, if peace was so important to them, they would move to a peaceful place.

If peace is less important to them, say in the realm of ‘lip service’, they will stay and hate and fight and complain about being victims.

47

[quote]smh23 wrote:
The Allies should have carved out a nice big section of Germany after WWII and created a Jewish state there. Maybe some of Austria too.[/quote]

I think the Germans might have resented a Jewish state in the middle of Germany more than they resented the Versailles ‘dictat’, and look where that led.

Also remember our ‘allie’ Stalin convinced Roosevelt that he was ‘a man of his word’ and that Churchill was an imperialist who wanted to colonise the Balkans. This led to the wasting of lives and effort invading occupied France when we could have concentrated our forces in Italy and pushed north through the Balkans. The end result was a ‘big section’ getting ‘carved out of’ Germany(and Eastern Europe) and millions more killed.

48

Oleena wrote:
“I personally think it(the UN) should offer huge monetary rewards for individual members of either side to move if they want, but carefully trace the spending of that money to make sure it doesn’t turn into a weapon.”

  • Please, go on. This is hilarious.

“Anyone who demonstrates peaceful conduct or solutions should be rewarded”

  • You mean like the UN rewards Israel for its peaceful conduct?

“For a short while, I imagine this would result in either side trying to trick the UN into giving them cash for war, but in the long term, greed would take over, like it already has, but to a different end. Either that, or those stuck in the war who don’t want to be there would have the opportunity to leave and the reduced number of people would have a shorter war. Either way, those who want out should be given be given enough to get to where they want to go.”

Great idea. I think when Hitler invaded Austria, Sudetenland, Czechoslavakia, Poland, France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Norway etc that those people and the Nazis should have been paid to move somewhere else. Yeah, that would’ve solved everything! Can’t we all just get along? Peace out man!

49

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
The central premise will be that, whilst the United Nations Human Rights Council(which comprises Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Jordan, United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Cuba, China and until recently Libya(!)… [/quote]

Is this a joke?[/quote]

Unfortunately not.

50

[quote]Alffi wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Alffi wrote:
Nobody cares what goes on out there, be it in Africa or Asia. Nobody would care what goes on in Israel either if jews did not exercise disproportionate power, making people think that the sandbox of Israel encompasses more humanity and land than Europe combined. The jews have a large voice and they voice it a lot. Their actions affect the lives of europeans and americans. The actions of the sudanese etc. have no significance. I don’t see any evidence of Israel caring for those tragedies. It’s just diversion. Sometimes jews may seem to care about the problems of foreign nations, but it tends to do with weakening the whites (if any) of those nations so that they can take over and destroy their competition, like when South Africa was painted as ‘evil’ and was actually thriving.
[/quote]

“Nobody cares what goes on out there”

  • Exactly. Whislt the Arab colonialists in the Sudan run the slave trade and send out the Janjaweed for regular genocidal rampages against the indigenous black population, ‘liberals’ and ‘progressives’ whine about some suicide bomber’s neighbors who got killed in Israel.

“Nobody would care what goes on in Israel either if jews did not exercise disproportionate power”

  • Arabs in Israel have ALL the same rights as Jews including parliamentary representation. They even have Arab supreme court judges. If Jews exercise more influence it’s due to merit not some conspriracy.

“Sometimes jews may seem to care about the problems of foreign nations, but it tends to do with weakening the whites (if any) of those nations so that they can take over and destroy their competition”

  • Is that from Mein Kampf or the Protocols of Zion? Weakening the whites? You sad man.

“like when South Africa was painted as ‘evil’ and was actually thriving”

  • South Africa was painted as ‘evil’ by the same left-wing political perverts who paint Israel as ‘evil’ and call it an ‘apartheid state’. South Africa now has the highest murder rate in the world and after the ANC purged the upper echelons of the Police force of the white ‘racists’, the criminal conviction rate is now less than 3%. Also, practices like raping babies as a ‘cure for AIDS’, once supressed by the white ‘racists’ are now back in force. And thanks to the enlightened leadership of ANC ‘freedom fighters’ like Robert Mugabe SA now has its own ‘border protection problems’. Don’t see how this comparison helps your case.

  • Lastly, if this matters, I’m not one of the evil Jews conspiring from Bilderberg to ‘weaken the whites’. I’m 100% white, Christian and can trace my ancestors back more than 10 generations on the paternal side and 7 generations on the maternal. No ‘tainted blood’ here, unlike your source Mr Schickelgruber who did so much good for ‘the whites’ in Europe that by the time he blew his brains out 8 million + Germans had died not to mention the other European ‘whites’ whom he had ‘liberated’ from ‘the Jews’.[/quote]
    According to studies, most jews are opposed to interracial marriage. That is, jews marrying gentiles like arabs and may even see it as a serious crime. However, when whites dislike interracial marriage (See recent thread on Mississippi) they are castigated as dumb and uneducated if not evil.

The media (influenced by guess who) does a lot to advance white/non-white sex and mating, even if it requires distortions and lies. I think that counts as weakening whites and some prominent jewish thinkers are on record saying just that; weakening whites will be good for their domination. [/quote]

WTF has inter-racial marriage got to do with anything? Do you really believe that Jews control the anti-Israel/pro-Palestinian media in Western democracies and promote inter-racial marriage to ‘weaken the whites’? Who are these ‘prominent Jewish thinkers on record’ saying that ‘weakening whites will be good for their domination’? And have you been taking your medication?

51

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
I believe these people are really into hating and fighting each other more than they want peace. Yes, I agree, if peace was so important to them, they would move to a peaceful place.

If peace is less important to them, say in the realm of ‘lip service’, they will stay and hate and fight and complain about being victims.[/quote]

  1. The Israelis aren’t ‘hating and fighting’ the Palestinians. They are APPEASING them and handing over land in an attempt to get them to stop wanting to exterminate them. Any right thinking person would’ve realised this after Oslo if they didn’t know it already.

  2. The leader of the Shiite Muslim world Ahmadinejad has stated on record that he hopes the Jews stay in Israel so ‘we won’t have to track them down across the globe’.

  3. Are you seriously suggesting that 5 Million+ Jews, whose ancestors fought, died in and won FIVE wars against the Arab invaders since the holocaust(which the Arabs were complicit in), should move to some unspecified ‘peaceful place’? And that the Palestinians should do the same?

Perhaps the Jews could move to the North Pole(if Russia lets them) and the Palestinians to the South Pole. They should all agree to leave at once and anyone who disagrees or is too elderly/sick to travel could be shot. Is this a good plan? Or are we going to rely on the honour system?

52

[quote]Alffi wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Alffi wrote:
Nobody cares what goes on out there, be it in Africa or Asia. Nobody would care what goes on in Israel either if jews did not exercise disproportionate power, making people think that the sandbox of Israel encompasses more humanity and land than Europe combined. The jews have a large voice and they voice it a lot. Their actions affect the lives of europeans and americans. The actions of the sudanese etc. have no significance. I don’t see any evidence of Israel caring for those tragedies. It’s just diversion. Sometimes jews may seem to care about the problems of foreign nations, but it tends to do with weakening the whites (if any) of those nations so that they can take over and destroy their competition, like when South Africa was painted as ‘evil’ and was actually thriving.
[/quote]

“Nobody cares what goes on out there”

  • Exactly. Whislt the Arab colonialists in the Sudan run the slave trade and send out the Janjaweed for regular genocidal rampages against the indigenous black population, ‘liberals’ and ‘progressives’ whine about some suicide bomber’s neighbors who got killed in Israel.

“Nobody would care what goes on in Israel either if jews did not exercise disproportionate power”

  • Arabs in Israel have ALL the same rights as Jews including parliamentary representation. They even have Arab supreme court judges. If Jews exercise more influence it’s due to merit not some conspriracy.

“Sometimes jews may seem to care about the problems of foreign nations, but it tends to do with weakening the whites (if any) of those nations so that they can take over and destroy their competition”

  • Is that from Mein Kampf or the Protocols of Zion? Weakening the whites? You sad man.

“like when South Africa was painted as ‘evil’ and was actually thriving”

  • South Africa was painted as ‘evil’ by the same left-wing political perverts who paint Israel as ‘evil’ and call it an ‘apartheid state’. South Africa now has the highest murder rate in the world and after the ANC purged the upper echelons of the Police force of the white ‘racists’, the criminal conviction rate is now less than 3%. Also, practices like raping babies as a ‘cure for AIDS’, once supressed by the white ‘racists’ are now back in force. And thanks to the enlightened leadership of ANC ‘freedom fighters’ like Robert Mugabe SA now has its own ‘border protection problems’. Don’t see how this comparison helps your case.

  • Lastly, if this matters, I’m not one of the evil Jews conspiring from Bilderberg to ‘weaken the whites’. I’m 100% white, Christian and can trace my ancestors back more than 10 generations on the paternal side and 7 generations on the maternal. No ‘tainted blood’ here, unlike your source Mr Schickelgruber who did so much good for ‘the whites’ in Europe that by the time he blew his brains out 8 million + Germans had died not to mention the other European ‘whites’ whom he had ‘liberated’ from ‘the Jews’.[/quote]
    I think you misunderstood me a little. I was not talking about whether arabs have rights in Israel (though I’ve read very conflicting accounts of this) but referring to the fact that jews have a lot of power in american media which makes americans care disproportionately much about the problems of Israel and jews. Which does not mean they should not care about the problems of the jews at all, just that it’s disproportional. [/quote]

What’s interesting/ironic is that complaints from the ZOG-obsessed truther side regarding ze Jooos are almost identical to those coming from the kill-ze-cracka camp regarding you guessed it Whitey, Ze Devool.

53

[quote]Alffi wrote:
Nobody cares what goes on out there, be it in Africa or Asia. Nobody would care what goes on in Israel either if jews did not exercise disproportionate power, making people think that the sandbox of Israel encompasses more humanity and land than Europe combined. The jews have a large voice and they voice it a lot. Their actions affect the lives of europeans and americans. The actions of the sudanese etc. have no significance. I don’t see any evidence of Israel caring for those tragedies. It’s just diversion. Sometimes jews may seem to care about the problems of foreign nations, but it tends to do with weakening the whites (if any) of those nations so that they can take over and destroy their competition, like when South Africa was painted as ‘evil’ and was actually thriving.
[/quote]

YOu don’t see much at all, perhaps because yoou’re too busy winking at phantoms. “weakening the whites, huh”? Nice Nazi terminolgy here I must say.

AS for the Sudanese, many Sudanes, Somalis etc actually have fled to Israel. The Israeli soldiers go into the desert to bring them safely to the cities, unlike the Egyptians who actively try vto stop them entering Egypt. Unfotuntely the illegal entry of Sudanese/Somali refugees to Israel has greatly increased the rape and murder rate in Israel by these Muslims.
Yeah, Muslims seeking refuge in Israel instead of their brother countries - amazing isn’t it?

meanwhile, Alffffi, you can spend your valuable tyime looking very closely at why you, unlike Jews, are so retarded.

54

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
You know what the real problem with this issue is? There is un-excusable slaughter of humanity happening as a result of every side giving an opinion about this, and for this reason it’s nearly impossible to find un-biased information about it.

Another problem is, people have an idea of ownership over the land and they think that their right to the land is more important than someone else’s life. I don’t understand that. If someone wanted to take my land, to the point of bloodshed, I would move or join them. It’s simply not worth it. [/quote]

Let me get this straight. We(i.e. United States and Western democracies) share equal responsibility for the FIVE unprovoked wars that were launched against Israel, the Iranian hostage crisis, the truck bombing of US Marine barracks in the Lebanon, the East Africa Embassy bombings, the world trade centre truck bombing, 9/11, the London 7/7 attacks, the Bali bombings, the Jakarta bombings, the Madrid subway bombings, the suicide bombings/rockets/rampages in Israel, the Beslan school massacre, the Mumbai attacks and the daily beheadings and torture-murders of ‘Infidels’ because we have been ‘giving an opinion about this’?

Let me try to understand your next point. If a hostile enemy wants to invade your country with the stated purpose of exterminating your ethnic group, you should hand your country over to them and somehow resettle your entire population somewhere else so nobody gets hurt?

Next![/quote]

The reason why there is a war right now is because the United Nations attempted to hand over what’s now Israel to two different ethnic groups, Israel immediately claimed independence, and the surrounding countries all attacked at once. The United Nations help Jews from all over the world travel back to Israel and they (Israeli) pushed the Palestines, who’d been living there for 500 years, out.

So in other words, if there had been more of a fair settlement of the land which was enforced, perhaps there wouldn’t be as much of a problem over there. Now, the idea wasn’t for Israel to take over, from what I understand, but the fact is that we’ve aided Israel in their efforts to lay complete claim to that land.

On the other side, Jews have been hated and displaced for thousands of years and many wish to see them have a place to call home. What they’re doing right now blatantly violates the human rights agreement of the United Nations, though.

And yes, I would move an entire population if someone was trying to lay claim to an area. Do you really think that blood shed, starvation, and your life are less important than the land? That’s stupid, IMO. Land-rights should never be more important than someone’s life. I would not tell my child to fight for their land; they are much more important than a plot of soil with history.[/quote]

NO. The reason there is a war is because jihad has been fought against the Jews ever since the inceptionm of Islam. Mohammed’s final instrcutions on mhis deathbed were that only One religion (Idslam) should inhabit the entire region.
The "Palestinians’ have not been in the area for 500 years. Where do you get this figure!!!
They are Arabs, mopst of whom had been living in Palestine for two or three generations after the Jews can in the late 1800’s and made the place financially viable, no thanks to the Turks, who sold them horrible land at inflated prices, and thanks later to the British, who gave Jewish land, money and rights to the local Arabs at the expecnse of the Jews, whose right it was under the Mandate to inhabit, develop and immigrate to Palestine.

I can recommend the book The Rape of Palestine by William B Ziff for further info on this.

55

Anyone who tries to deny that wrong has been done on both sides is fantastically full of shit. Fantastically.

56

[quote]smh23 wrote:
Anyone who tries to deny that wrong has been done on both sides is fantastically full of shit. Fantastically.[/quote]

100% agreed!

In addition, if you claim that one side is at all justified in their murder of innocents because you see very few innocents as being a part of the group you are killing (when the numbers don’t agree with you. If you look at the number of Palestinians killed compared to Israelis, you realize that suicide bombing is a second choice to tanks and machine guns. Both are not the right answer), you are in effect buying into the oldest scape-goating strategy in humanities’ history.

So you truly believe all Islams want to wipe all Jews? Then I guess you’re justified in killing all Islams, and anyone living in proximity to them, without question. Weird. That sounds so much like a certain Socialist party a little over half a century ago.

Do you not see how this scape-goating phenomenon applies to both Jews and Palestinians at this point? And how it’s continuance wont solve the problem?

Honestly, this is not a religious issue, it’s a resource issue that’s been written into a religion. I would bet my entire life’s worth of money that if the resource issue was resolved, somehow the religious ideals would fade. New interpretations would suddenly “crop up”, just like the Christians no longer stone farmers who plant two different crops at the same time because they don’t believe that applies.

Also, people need to understand that both sides are trying to skew the information in their favor; Jews have gone to great lengths to cover up their military operations through American PR, oftentimes to the point that most Americans don’t know that they occupied Palestine. All you see on TV is Isreali’s behind tanks and Palestinians throwing rocks at them. The word “occupation” isn’t even mentioned. But it’s easy enough to find:

Brief History of of Palestine, Israel and the Israeli Palestinian Conflict (Arab-Israeli conflict, Middle East Conflict) <<< everyone commenting on this thread should read this and tell me 1. What’s wrong with it if they got something wrong and where you got your information and 2. How you can possibly say that the Palestinians and Jews didn’t live together on the land for nearly 500 years under the Ottoman empire.
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0821-27.htm

57

[quote]'nuffsaid wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
You know what the real problem with this issue is? There is un-excusable slaughter of humanity happening as a result of every side giving an opinion about this, and for this reason it’s nearly impossible to find un-biased information about it.

Another problem is, people have an idea of ownership over the land and they think that their right to the land is more important than someone else’s life. I don’t understand that. If someone wanted to take my land, to the point of bloodshed, I would move or join them. It’s simply not worth it. [/quote]

Let me get this straight. We(i.e. United States and Western democracies) share equal responsibility for the FIVE unprovoked wars that were launched against Israel, the Iranian hostage crisis, the truck bombing of US Marine barracks in the Lebanon, the East Africa Embassy bombings, the world trade centre truck bombing, 9/11, the London 7/7 attacks, the Bali bombings, the Jakarta bombings, the Madrid subway bombings, the suicide bombings/rockets/rampages in Israel, the Beslan school massacre, the Mumbai attacks and the daily beheadings and torture-murders of ‘Infidels’ because we have been ‘giving an opinion about this’?

Let me try to understand your next point. If a hostile enemy wants to invade your country with the stated purpose of exterminating your ethnic group, you should hand your country over to them and somehow resettle your entire population somewhere else so nobody gets hurt?

Next![/quote]

The reason why there is a war right now is because the United Nations attempted to hand over what’s now Israel to two different ethnic groups, Israel immediately claimed independence, and the surrounding countries all attacked at once. The United Nations help Jews from all over the world travel back to Israel and they (Israeli) pushed the Palestines, who’d been living there for 500 years, out.

So in other words, if there had been more of a fair settlement of the land which was enforced, perhaps there wouldn’t be as much of a problem over there. Now, the idea wasn’t for Israel to take over, from what I understand, but the fact is that we’ve aided Israel in their efforts to lay complete claim to that land.

On the other side, Jews have been hated and displaced for thousands of years and many wish to see them have a place to call home. What they’re doing right now blatantly violates the human rights agreement of the United Nations, though.

And yes, I would move an entire population if someone was trying to lay claim to an area. Do you really think that blood shed, starvation, and your life are less important than the land? That’s stupid, IMO. Land-rights should never be more important than someone’s life. I would not tell my child to fight for their land; they are much more important than a plot of soil with history.[/quote]

NO. The reason there is a war is because jihad has been fought against the Jews ever since the inceptionm of Islam. Mohammed’s final instrcutions on mhis deathbed were that only One religion (Idslam) should inhabit the entire region.
The "Palestinians’ have not been in the area for 500 years. Where do you get this figure!!!
They are Arabs, mopst of whom had been living in Palestine for two or three generations after the Jews can in the late 1800’s and made the place financially viable, no thanks to the Turks, who sold them horrible land at inflated prices, and thanks later to the British, who gave Jewish land, money and rights to the local Arabs at the expecnse of the Jews, whose right it was under the Mandate to inhabit, develop and immigrate to Palestine.

I can recommend the book The Rape of Palestine by William B Ziff for further info on this.
[/quote]

None of the history books I’ve ever read agree with you:

58

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Oleena wrote:
“I personally think it(the UN) should offer huge monetary rewards for individual members of either side to move if they want, but carefully trace the spending of that money to make sure it doesn’t turn into a weapon.”

  • Please, go on. This is hilarious.

“Anyone who demonstrates peaceful conduct or solutions should be rewarded”

  • You mean like the UN rewards Israel for its peaceful conduct?

“For a short while, I imagine this would result in either side trying to trick the UN into giving them cash for war, but in the long term, greed would take over, like it already has, but to a different end. Either that, or those stuck in the war who don’t want to be there would have the opportunity to leave and the reduced number of people would have a shorter war. Either way, those who want out should be given be given enough to get to where they want to go.”

Great idea. I think when Hitler invaded Austria, Sudetenland, Czechoslavakia, Poland, France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Norway etc that those people and the Nazis should have been paid to move somewhere else. Yeah, that would’ve solved everything! Can’t we all just get along? Peace out man![/quote]

It’s rather fitting that you’d use the Hitler example. Are you aware of the cause of the rise of the Nazi party? Germany was put in a terrible economic situation due to accepting the blame for WW1 and it’s citizens needed someone to blame for their quickly dwindling resources/non-existent power. If Germany had been given financial support, instead of the opposite, it’s very likely that Hitler would have never gained power because the populace wouldn’t have been anxious and needing of a solution

Also, don’t take my statement “offer individuals on both sides resources to move elsewhere” and take it to mean “ethnic cleansing” because realistically, that’s not what would happen. Not everyone on either side would choose to move, as you’re well aware of.

Lastly, what’s your solution?

59

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
You know what the real problem with this issue is? There is un-excusable slaughter of humanity happening as a result of every side giving an opinion about this, and for this reason it’s nearly impossible to find un-biased information about it.

Another problem is, people have an idea of ownership over the land and they think that their right to the land is more important than someone else’s life. I don’t understand that. If someone wanted to take my land, to the point of bloodshed, I would move or join them. It’s simply not worth it. [/quote]

It has nothing to do with “land,” that’s B.S. ginned up to give some sort of credibility to people who are not familiar with the facts.

There is a certain strain of Islam that teaches it is OK to kill Jewish people.

It doesn’t matter where we live or exist.[/quote]

Well the fact is that Israel is occupying their enemy’s territory, not the other way around, and not being too nice about it either. If you ever want hatred on either side to end, one side is going to have to stop violating the rights of the other, or someone is going to have to step in and equally prevent the violation on either side.

Edit: My occupying, I’m not talking about the possession of Israel, but the fact that they have large operations outside the boarders where their enemies are staying.[/quote]

Please understand that you know nothing about this. Israel is not ‘occupying’ ‘large operations outside the boarders’. There ARE no borders. When the six day war ended the cease fire lines left Israel in Gaza, all of Sinai, Golan and the West Bank. Under international law Israel has the right to occupy all of this land until a negotiated settlement is reached and borders agreed upon. However Israel pulled out of Sinai(after Yom Kippur and Sadat treaty that resulted in the Egyptians assassinating their own Prime Minister), has pulled out of Gaza(in 2005 when suicide bombers were no longer able to enter Israel) and continually evicts Jews off their land in WB to give to the Arabs. See video below for example if you’re really interested in facts.

A negotiated border/s will never happen as the Arabs don’t want borders or a second Palestinian state for Arabs only, they want all of Israel and the worldwide extermination of Jewry. If they were to succeed in this endeavour you can bet your bottom dollar that they’ll then want ‘right of return’ to Southern Cyprus/Bulgaria/Spain next.

60

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Oleena wrote:
“I personally think it(the UN) should offer huge monetary rewards for individual members of either side to move if they want, but carefully trace the spending of that money to make sure it doesn’t turn into a weapon.”

  • Please, go on. This is hilarious.

“Anyone who demonstrates peaceful conduct or solutions should be rewarded”

  • You mean like the UN rewards Israel for its peaceful conduct?

“For a short while, I imagine this would result in either side trying to trick the UN into giving them cash for war, but in the long term, greed would take over, like it already has, but to a different end. Either that, or those stuck in the war who don’t want to be there would have the opportunity to leave and the reduced number of people would have a shorter war. Either way, those who want out should be given be given enough to get to where they want to go.”

Great idea. I think when Hitler invaded Austria, Sudetenland, Czechoslavakia, Poland, France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Norway etc that those people and the Nazis should have been paid to move somewhere else. Yeah, that would’ve solved everything! Can’t we all just get along? Peace out man![/quote]

It’s rather fitting that you’d use the Hitler example. Are you aware of the cause of the rise of the Nazi party? Germany was put in a terrible economic situation due to accepting the blame for WW1 and it’s citizens needed someone to blame for their quickly dwindling resources/non-existent power. If Germany had been given financial support, instead of the opposite, it’s very likely that Hitler would have never gained power because the populace wouldn’t have been anxious and needing of a solution

Also, don’t take my statement “offer individuals on both sides resources to move elsewhere” and take it to mean “ethnic cleansing” because realistically, that’s not what would happen. Not everyone on either side would choose to move, as you’re well aware of.

Lastly, what’s your solution?[/quote]

You obviously didn’t read/understand my previous post ‘I think they(the Germans) would resent a Jewish state in their midst more than they resented the Versailles ‘dictat’ and look where that led’.

You know nothing about WWI/II or Israel that you haven’t just googled. There was also a little thing called the stock market crash that led to worldwide depression and unemployment, the suspention of Germany’s reparation payments in 1932, the rise of violent Communist forces and the rise of a certain opposition party which received 37% of the vote and installed its leader as Chancellor.

It’s more complicated than one can explain on a forum. For a better understanding of the rise of Nazism read ‘The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich’ by William L Shirer.