The Bible

[pat]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
By the power and providence of almighty God He has revealed to His body and bride, His church, which writings carry His authority. This is no problem for me. Just remember dearest Christopher. You fired the first volley here. That’s ok though. If your church is what she says she is then I AM a heretic. You see now don’t ya? I can be a heretic and yet you still love me. That’s all I’ve been sayin since we’ve known each other.
EDIT: Oops. Oh yeah, I follow/imitate the apostles as they follow Christ like Paul said. (1 Corinthians 11:1) You have to know what they said before this can be done. I do hereby once again assert, calmly and even respectfully, that the church headquartered in Rome is not the place to look if one would accurately learn what they said. Yes, I am fully persuaded that I know what they said with far more exegetical integrity than all the magisterial scholars in the history of Roman Catholicism combined. We can still talk about that Chris.

Pat, I have really sought the Lord about further adjustments to my attitude since you took me off ignore. We are veering straight in the rapids that capsized us last time. I hope we can avoid the same upheaval again. Do feel free however to disagree with me. Even strenuously. I do also still wish we had PM’s or that you would email me. [/quote]

We’ll be fine so long as we steer clear of the ‘whore of Babylon’ crap.

[pat]

I heard a good quote yesterday “Christians do a poor job of representing the Body of Christ”, look at how we treat each other.
I couldn’t agree more.
The people who hate the Church, Christians or Christ are our responsibility, because we have not treated them, nor each other with love.

[Karado]

With love…and defending with evidence and integrity and with 100% hardcore certainty
that the apparent venerable Portugal Sightings and subsequent ‘Miracle Of The Sun’ actually occurred,
in 1917 in Fatima, Portugal you believe was not a deception.
Defend it to a protestant who’s barely open minded enough to MAYBE…maybe be open
enough change denominations one day, OR defend it as if a friend of yours who wasn’t even a Christian
and was open and extremely inquisitive as to why you believe this was true, Jesus never said he
was gonna send his mother to send any kind of message of any kind to anyone in the future…did he?
Tell us if he did, please tell us if we missed something in scripture about this…I’m OPEN…Defend this.
I’m all ears here…what are we missing that YOU are seeing that convinced you this was true and from
God Pat?
Concerns:

1. No one ever tested the spirit that appeared to the three children. This would have been very easy to do, just by asking the simple question, “Did Jesus come in the flesh?” Apparently this simple question drives the demons nuts and they can’t answer it, as they lie habitually. They usually tap dance around saying things like, “yes, He did, and he is also our brother.” Jesus is not the brother of the angels, good or fallen. Why didn’t anyone test the spirit of what was manifesting to the children?

2. The apparition first said it was from heaven and pointed to the sky. It never told them it was the Mary of the Bible until much later.

3. It communicated through telepathic means. This is greatly suspect, because in all of scripture angels speak in the language of the person they are appearing to. However, in UFO abduction cases telepathy is the choice of communication.

4. Three secrets were given to the children and kept from the rest of the body of Christ. This sets up a caste system in which only the select chosen few can know the “secret.” This is nothing short of occult manipulation, as the Gospel was never censored and in fact the Apostle John wrote his letters to condemn the teachings of the Gnostics, who believed that there was more to the Gospel than the cross of Christ. There are no secrets in the teachings of the Messiah!

5. There were Catholic clergy who did not go along with the prevailing attitude that this was Mary and voiced their opinion that it might be a demonic deception! Bravo guys! However, they were silenced!

6. Many of the witnesses at the event described what they saw as “a dull, silver disc.” I wonder what that sounds like?

7. There no photographs of the phenomena of what has become known as The Miracle of the Sun. There are photos before and after but not during. Were the photos confiscated? Did the cameras stop working like is reported by many who have encounters with UFOs?

All of this to say that the event was “cleaned” up and dressed in “Catholic” clothes. What is interesting is that many people who believe in the Fatima apparitions are still calling for the third secret to be revealed, as they say that what Pope John Paul II revealed a few years ago was not the real secret. The present pope, Benedict the 16th, once a true believer in Fatima has distanced himself from it, saying that Fatima was for another time… sounds too convenient to brush it off like that…IDK.

[pat]

[quote]kamui wrote:
The bible ?

a weapon of mass civilization.

It detonated three millenia ago and it continue to irradiate us to this day.
[/quote]

You never cease to impress me Kam…

[pat]

[quote]Karado wrote:
With love…and defending with evidence and integrity and with 100% hardcore certainty
that the apparent venerable Portugal Sightings and subsequent ‘Miracle Of The Sun’ actually occurred,
in 1917 in Fatima, Portugal you believe was not a deception.
Defend it to a protestant who’s barely open minded enough to MAYBE…maybe be open
enough change denominations one day, OR defend it as if a friend of yours who wasn’t even a Christian
and was open and extremely inquisitive as to why you believe this was true, Jesus never said he
was gonna send his mother to send any kind of message of any kind to anyone in the future…did he?
Tell us if he did, please tell us if we missed something in scripture about this…I’m OPEN…Defend this.
I’m all ears here…what are we missing that YOU are seeing that convinced you this was true and from
God Pat?
Concerns:

1. No one ever tested the spirit that appeared to the three children. This would have been very easy to do, just by asking the simple question, “Did Jesus come in the flesh?” Apparently this simple question drives the demons nuts and they can’t answer it, as they lie habitually. They usually tap dance around saying things like, “yes, He did, and he is also our brother.” Jesus is not the brother of the angels, good or fallen. Why didn’t anyone test the spirit of what was manifesting to the children?

2. The apparition first said it was from heaven and pointed to the sky. It never told them it was the Mary of the Bible until much later.

3. It communicated through telepathic means. This is greatly suspect, because in all of scripture angels speak in the language of the person they are appearing to. However, in UFO abduction cases telepathy is the choice of communication.

4. Three secrets were given to the children and kept from the rest of the body of Christ. This sets up a caste system in which only the select chosen few can know the “secret.” This is nothing short of occult manipulation, as the Gospel was never censored and in fact the Apostle John wrote his letters to condemn the teachings of the Gnostics, who believed that there was more to the Gospel than the cross of Christ. There are no secrets in the teachings of the Messiah!

5. There were Catholic clergy who did not go along with the prevailing attitude that this was Mary and voiced their opinion that it might be a demonic deception! Bravo guys! However, they were silenced!

6. Many of the witnesses at the event described what they saw as “a dull, silver disc.” I wonder what that sounds like?

7. There no photographs of the phenomena of what has become known as The Miracle of the Sun. There are photos before and after but not during. Were the photos confiscated? Did the cameras stop working like is reported by many who have encounters with UFOs?

All of this to say that the event was “cleaned” up and dressed in “Catholic” clothes. What is interesting is that many people who believe in the Fatima apparitions are still calling for the third secret to be revealed, as they say that what Pope John Paul II revealed a few years ago was not the real secret. The present pope, Benedict the 16th, once a true believer in Fatima has distanced himself from it, saying that Fatima was for another time… sounds too convenient to brush it off like that…IDK.

[/quote]

This thread is about the bible. Feel free to put your anti-Catholic conspiracy theories in to one of the many Catholic bashing threads around here. We are not talking about Fatima here.

[pat]

Okay, what are the importance of the non-Pauline epistles? Are they as important or less important than the Pauline Epistles? Most of the time, only the Pauline Epistles are discussed.
What about St. James, St. John and St. Peter? Where do they rank? Are their messages less important than St. Pauls?

[Tiribulus]

[quote]pat wrote:
Okay, what are the importance of the non-Pauline epistles? Are they as important or less important than the Pauline Epistles? Most of the time, only the Pauline Epistles are discussed.
What about St. James, St. John and St. Peter? Where do they rank? Are their messages less important than St. Pauls?[/quote]
2 Timothy 3:16 (ESV) [quote]All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,[/quote]
While Paul’s epistles are on the whole the most theologically rich, there are vital and essential truths powerfully set forth in all the epistles. John’s first gives us the clearest contrast between righteous loving living and self deception in the New Testament. Peter’s first is also filled with the Lord’s prescriptions for godly life as well as much weighty theology of election, the fulfillment of the old covenant in Christ, endurance of suffering and more. In his second he tells us that he regards Paul’s very impressive writings as scripture themselves. Jude charges us with the command to “contend earnestly for the faith” and reject those who proclaim heresies (a long forgotten command these days).

James gave us a handbook of conduct and personal as well as ecclesiastical holiness of life and practice. His exposition of the unique power of the spoken word (rightly understood) is priceless.

Multi volume sets have been written on pros Ebraios, To Hebrews. Authorship alone warrants a thread by itself. We’ll probably never know in this life for sure who wrote it, but suffice it to say that this book rivals any of the accepted Pauline epistles for mind numbing theological exposition. It is literally a hermeneutical textbook for the old testament. Positively erupting with the fulfillment of all things from Genesis 1:1 forward through the whole law and Levitical system in the divine man, Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ of God. At whose death the veil of the temple barring men from the holy of holies was rent from top to bottom opening the life and presence of the only true and living God to all those who would approach Him through the blood of His son.

Oops, look at the time. Ya’ll know me, I could go and on, but I have work to do.

[Karado]

All these uncertainties will be settled one day through a hi-tech ‘window’ to the past device still not
invented yet.
Think about it…set up this device…put it on Calvary…‘tune’ it in to around to 2000 years ago
and observe the events on this ‘time travel’ screen as it happened in real time.
Observe 3 days later to confirm…done…all other religions are null and void.

This invention will NOT allow one to travel back in time…it is a “past observing” device only.
Think of the possibilities…did your wife ever cheat on you? ‘tune in’ to her past and know
for certain.
Put this Camera-Like device in the Texas Book Depository and ‘tune in’ on 11.22.1963 and settle that controversy once and for all…Go to your childhood home and watch yourself masturbate like
squirrel monkey in your room when you were 16…ahhh the memories.

But Karado, But Karado. an invention like that could NEVER be built…you’re fucking insane!

Heh maybe, but theoretically If one described a Transistor Radio to George Washington, George Washington
would have had that person commmited to the looney bin.
“Capturing Voices from the air into a small box Via CRYSTALS inside this box that capture these voices?”
“Gentlemen seize that heretic Karado!” “Voices from distant places coming from a small box I can carry in my hand?..HA HA HA HA HA!!..PREPOSTEROUS!”
“Next you will tell me Man will travel in the skies one day…PREPOSTEROUS!”

[pat]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Okay, what are the importance of the non-Pauline epistles? Are they as important or less important than the Pauline Epistles? Most of the time, only the Pauline Epistles are discussed.
What about St. James, St. John and St. Peter? Where do they rank? Are their messages less important than St. Pauls?[/quote]
2 Timothy 3:16 (ESV) [quote]All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,[/quote]
While Paul’s epistles are on the whole the most theologically rich, there are vital and essential truths powerfully set forth in all the epistles. John’s first gives us the clearest contrast between righteous loving living and self deception in the New Testament. Peter’s first is also filled with the Lord’s prescriptions for godly life as well as much weighty theology of election, the fulfillment of the old covenant in Christ, endurance of suffering and more. In his second he tells us that he regards Paul’s very impressive writings as scripture themselves. Jude charges us with the command to “contend earnestly for the faith” and reject those who proclaim heresies (a long forgotten command these days).

James gave us a handbook of conduct and personal as well as ecclesiastical holiness of life and practice. His exposition of the unique power of the spoken word (rightly understood) is priceless.

Multi volume sets have been written on pros Ebraios, To Hebrews. Authorship alone warrants a thread by itself. We’ll probably never know in this life for sure who wrote it, but suffice it to say that this book rivals any of the accepted Pauline epistles for mind numbing theological exposition. It is literally a hermeneutical textbook for the old testament. Positively erupting with the fulfillment of all things from Genesis 1:1 forward through the whole law and Levitical system in the divine man, Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ of God. At whose death the veil of the temple barring men from the holy of holies was rent from top to bottom opening the life and presence of the only true and living God to all those who would approach Him through the blood of His son.

Oops, look at the time. Ya’ll know me, I could go and on, but I have work to do.[/quote]

I think a thread about Hebrew’s authorship would be stunningly short. Nobody knows.

[pat]

[quote]Karado wrote:
All these uncertainties will be settled one day through a hi-tech ‘window’ to the past device still not
invented yet.
Think about it…set up this device…put it on Calvary…‘tune’ it in to around to 2000 years ago
and observe the events on this ‘time travel’ screen as it happened in real time.
Observe 3 days later to confirm…done…all other religions are null and void.

This invention will NOT allow one to travel back in time…it is a “past observing” device only.
Think of the possibilities…did your wife ever cheat on you? ‘tune in’ to her past and know
for certain.
Put this Camera-Like device in the Texas Book Depository and ‘tune in’ on 11.22.1963 and settle that controversy once and for all…Go to your childhood home and watch yourself masturbate like
squirrel monkey in your room when you were 16…ahhh the memories.

But Karado, But Karado. an invention like that could NEVER be built…you’re fucking insane!

Heh maybe, but theoretically If one described a Transistor Radio to George Washington, George Washington
would have had that person commmited to the looney bin.
“Capturing Voices from the air into a small box Via CRYSTALS inside this box that capture these voices?”
“Gentlemen seize that heretic Karado!” “Voices from distant places coming from a small box I can carry in my hand?..HA HA HA HA HA!!..PREPOSTEROUS!”
“Next you will tell me Man will travel in the skies one day…PREPOSTEROUS!”

[/quote]

What the hell are you talking about??
On second thought, nevermind, I don’t want to know.

[Karado]

Yes you do, you decided to respond to it, then you decided once again to post
anyway even after your so-called “second thought”, when you could just could have stayed
silent and not want to know, and not post in the first place after taking a deep
breath initially deciding on whether you wanted to know or not.

[Fletch1986]

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
All these uncertainties will be settled one day through a hi-tech ‘window’ to the past device still not
invented yet.
Think about it…set up this device…put it on Calvary…‘tune’ it in to around to 2000 years ago
and observe the events on this ‘time travel’ screen as it happened in real time.
Observe 3 days later to confirm…done…all other religions are null and void.

This invention will NOT allow one to travel back in time…it is a “past observing” device only.
Think of the possibilities…did your wife ever cheat on you? ‘tune in’ to her past and know
for certain.
Put this Camera-Like device in the Texas Book Depository and ‘tune in’ on 11.22.1963 and settle that controversy once and for all…Go to your childhood home and watch yourself masturbate like
squirrel monkey in your room when you were 16…ahhh the memories.

But Karado, But Karado. an invention like that could NEVER be built…you’re fucking insane!

Heh maybe, but theoretically If one described a Transistor Radio to George Washington, George Washington
would have had that person commmited to the looney bin.
“Capturing Voices from the air into a small box Via CRYSTALS inside this box that capture these voices?”
“Gentlemen seize that heretic Karado!” “Voices from distant places coming from a small box I can carry in my hand?..HA HA HA HA HA!!..PREPOSTEROUS!”
“Next you will tell me Man will travel in the skies one day…PREPOSTEROUS!”

[/quote]

What the hell are you talking about??
On second thought, nevermind, I don’t want to know.
[/quote]

The Twilight Zone Intro

[Tiribulus]

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Okay, what are the importance of the non-Pauline epistles? Are they as important or less important than the Pauline Epistles? Most of the time, only the Pauline Epistles are discussed.
What about St. James, St. John and St. Peter? Where do they rank? Are their messages less important than St. Pauls?[/quote]
2 Timothy 3:16 (ESV) [quote]All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,[/quote]
While Paul’s epistles are on the whole the most theologically rich, there are vital and essential truths powerfully set forth in all the epistles. John’s first gives us the clearest contrast between righteous loving living and self deception in the New Testament. Peter’s first is also filled with the Lord’s prescriptions for godly life as well as much weighty theology of election, the fulfillment of the old covenant in Christ, endurance of suffering and more. In his second he tells us that he regards Paul’s very impressive writings as scripture themselves. Jude charges us with the command to “contend earnestly for the faith” and reject those who proclaim heresies (a long forgotten command these days).

James gave us a handbook of conduct and personal as well as ecclesiastical holiness of life and practice. His exposition of the unique power of the spoken word (rightly understood) is priceless.

Multi volume sets have been written on pros Ebraios, To Hebrews. Authorship alone warrants a thread by itself. We’ll probably never know in this life for sure who wrote it, but suffice it to say that this book rivals any of the accepted Pauline epistles for mind numbing theological exposition. It is literally a hermeneutical textbook for the old testament. Positively erupting with the fulfillment of all things from Genesis 1:1 forward through the whole law and Levitical system in the divine man, Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ of God. At whose death the veil of the temple barring men from the holy of holies was rent from top to bottom opening the life and presence of the only true and living God to all those who would approach Him through the blood of His son.

Oops, look at the time. Ya’ll know me, I could go and on, but I have work to do.[/quote]

I think a thread about Hebrew’s authorship would be stunningly short. Nobody knows.[/quote]LOL, ok, that’s true, but the various theories and the reasons for them have occupied very much effort throughout church history was all I meant.

[pat]

[quote]Karado wrote:
Yes you do, you decided to respond to it, then you decided once again to post
anyway even after your so-called “second thought”, when you could just could have stayed
silent and not want to know, and not post in the first place after taking a deep
breath initially deciding on whether you wanted to know or not.

[/quote]

I have decided I don’t want to. I am not interested in conspiracy theories. If you spent as much time on researching history and fact, you would know a lot.

[Hold_Up]

Remove anything “supernatural” (which I firmly disbelieve) and I think the Bible is a descent book with some genuine history.

[Tiribulus]

[quote]Hold Up wrote:Remove anything “supernatural” and the bible is the biggest and most egregious lie of all time.[/quote]Had to fix that for ya. You’re probably a very nice guy who I would like very much, but you haven’t the first flickering clue what the bible is or what it’s about, but don’t feel like I’m picking on you. Knowledge of such things is at an all time low in modern post reformation history. Even in church. Especially in church actually.

[pat]

[quote]Hold Up wrote:
Remove anything “supernatural” (which I firmly disbelieve) and I think the Bible is a descent book with some genuine history.

[/quote]

You know what funny about people who desperately want to dismiss, or not believe the divine or “supernatural” is it’s generally replaced with believes that are even more bizarre and unprovable.
Yeah, there is some genuine history in the Bible, but it’s not a history book. To treat as such is to miss the point. History is history.

If you firmly disbelieve the ‘supernatural’ aspects of it. What’s the point at all?
There are plenty of history and archaeological books. Lot’s of ancient literature. The Bible is more than that, otherwise it’s just another boring old book with utterly no meaning.

[pat]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
LOL, ok, that’s true, but the various theories and the reasons for them have occupied very much effort throughout church history was all I meant.
[/quote]

Yes, that’s true. But very few lay people even know or care. Heck, we would get a pretty long and well informed and educational post from KingKai and then, well…

Nevertheless I do love Hebrews. Just the linguistics and inter woven theological themes and meanings makes for hours of fun. Not quite Romans, but Hebrews is a very theologically dense book. By the exercise of extracting all the meaning from Hebrews requires you to develop your relationship with God in a richer way, much like Romans in that affect. It’s not just a read, each line means a lot. You can read it a hundred times and continually get new information from it you did not see before.

We may not know who wrote it, but I am glad it’s in the Bible.

[Karado]

I’m glad too…Hey Pat where’s that evidence the Fatima Sighting in Portugal you believe happened
100%.
Still lookin’ for the Biblical Prophecy that Jesus would send his mother back to
Earth and send extra-Biblical secret messages in the future…help a brotha out man.
Chapter and verse…please.

[Tiribulus]

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
LOL, ok, that’s true, but the various theories and the reasons for them have occupied very much effort throughout church history was all I meant.
[/quote]

Yes, that’s true. But very few lay people even know or care. Heck, we would get a pretty long and well informed and educational post from KingKai and then, well…

Nevertheless I do love Hebrews. Just the linguistics and inter woven theological themes and meanings makes for hours of fun. Not quite Romans, but Hebrews is a very theologically dense book. By the exercise of extracting all the meaning from Hebrews requires you to develop your relationship with God in a richer way, much like Romans in that affect. It’s not just a read, each line means a lot. You can read it a hundred times and continually get new information from it you did not see before.

We may not know who wrote it, but I am glad it’s in the Bible.[/quote]
I actually agree. With every word. The critical issues giving clues to authorship might bore average people, KK I’m sure has some solid info and the book will definitely grow one’s relationship with the Lord. I also agree it might not QUITE be Romans, but it ain’t too far off and yes, like Romans can occupy a man’s entire with study for decades. Here’s awesome chapter 1 ESV. Bolded passages are quotations from the old testament:

[quote]1-Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2-but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3-He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4-having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

5-For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son,
today I have begotten you”?

Or again,

“I will be to him a father,
and he shall be to me a son”?

6-And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all Godâ??s angels worship him.”

7-Of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels winds,
and his ministers a flame of fire.”

8-But of the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

10-And,

“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11 they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
12 like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.a
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”

13-And to which of the angels has he ever said,

“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?

14-Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?[/quote]