[quote]countingbeans wrote:
If you’re going to use shitty blue laws that were written decades ago and go unenforced you have to actually site the last time someone was punished for it.
[/quote]
I can’t buy liquor on Sundays.
[quote]doogie wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
If you’re going to use shitty blue laws that were written decades ago and go unenforced you have to actually site the last time someone was punished for it.
[/quote]
I can’t buy liquor on Sundays.[/quote]
Neither could I for the longest time, and I live in MA, the home of the Kennedys.
Yes, that is a much better example for AC to use.
Arkansas Constitution Art 19, Sec 1 states that no person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil department of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court.
Massage Therapy is considered an adult, erotic service ans is banned in all zoning districts in Horneytown, NC
PROSTITUTION IS ILLEGAL IN ALL STATES BUT NEVADA
Any statement, picture, or illustration referring to Easter, Holy Week, Mother?s Day, ?Santa Claus,? including names synonymous with ?Santa Claus?, or a religious holiday or religious symbol, which promotes the sale, service, or consumption of alcoholic beverages shall be prohibited. Nothing in this section shall prohibit references to Christmas or any other holiday season if the references do not include statements, pictures, or illustrations on strictly religious themes. In Washington DC
This one is right out of the Old Testament: in New Jersey, couples must wait at least 72 hours to be married unless the man has raped the woman. LMAO I thought that OT shit didn’t apply anymore? Ooops…
Alabama Section 13A-12-1 Certain acts prohibited on Sunday
Any person who compels his child, apprentice or servant to perform any labor on Sunday, except the customary domestic duties of daily necessity or comfort, or works of charity or who engages in shooting, hunting, gaming, card playing or racing on that day, or who, being a merchant or shopkeeper, druggist excepted, keeps open store on Sunday, shall be fined not less than $10.00 nor more than $100.00, and may also be imprisoned in the county jail, or sentenced to hard labor for the county, for not more than three months. However, the provisions of this section shall not apply to the operation of railroads, airlines, bus lines, communications, public utilities or steamboats or other vessels navigating the waters of this state, or to any manufacturing establishment which is required to be kept in constant operation, or to the sale of gasoline or other motor fuels or motor oils. Nor shall this section prohibit the sale of newspapers, or the operation of newsstands, or automobile repair shops, florist shops, fruit stands, ice cream shops or parlors, lunch stands or restaurants, delicatessens or plants engaged in the manufacture or sale of ice; provided, that such business establishments are not operated in conjunction with some other kind or type of business which is prohibited by this section. It shall also be lawful to engage in motorcycle and automobile racing on Sunday, whether admission is charged or not; except, that this proviso shall not be construed to prevent any municipality from passing ordinances prohibiting such racing on Sunday.
Women who sit on men’s laps on busses or trains without placing a pillow between them face an automatic six month jail term, Seattle Washington.
http://www.stupidlaws.com/tag/religion/
Let’s talk about prostitution… Perfectly legal in Nevada, why not everywhere?
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
^^Dude what are you talking about? That’s just one of those thousands of laws that are still on the books but aren’t and never were enforced. Like:
It?s against the law to sing off-key (North Carolina)
And
It?s illegal to attend a public event or use public transport within 4 hours of eating an onions or garlic (Indiana)
And
If you have mustaches, it?s illegal for you to kiss a woman (Eureka, Nevada)
You are not living in a theocracy. Who the hell is asking for these kind of laws? I’m not. I figure you have some hang up about religion in general. Most atheists just try to show how clever they are and ridicule believers. You seem to be angry at religion which is an entirely different thing. I’m guessing you’ve had a bad experience. I’m also very uncomfortable with organised religion and dogma.
[/quote]
Those types of laws are huge problems. They sit there, innocently enough, until they are needed to violate someone’s rights. Violating some law that one has no idea even exists, because he’s never seen or heard of it being enforced, can give the state carte blanche with him.[/quote]
It doesn’t work like that. Any of the charges would be thrown out of court based on reference to precent, existing laws that nullify them and on grounds of unconstitutionality. [/quote]
This is an example of police using stupid laws for exactly this…
A cop asked him what Whitt was doing in the area. He wanted to see his identification, and rifled through his shopping bag to see what he was carrying. Then, he ran Whittâ??s name in search of outstanding warrants.
â??I told him â??thatâ??s illegal, youâ??re violating my rightsâ??,â?? said Whitt. â??â??I have not broken the law. You ainâ??t got probable cause for nothingâ??. He told me â??I can cite you for not wearing a helmetâ??.â??
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Thought this was pretty funny. Feel free to contribute or comment.
[/quote]
Well, you are not Jewish, so most of this stuff is not required if you.
[quote]
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice,
I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev. 1:9 The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?[/quote]
There is no temple, so can’t make any sacrifices.
Not a jew.
[quote]
Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves,
both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?[/quote]
Not a jew.
Not a jew.
Not a jew. But, homosexuality goes against natural law, where shellfish goes against Kosher/Mosaic Law.
You are not a Jew or a Levite and there is no temple, so there is no altar of God to approach.
[quote]Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed,
including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27
How should they die?[/quote]
You are not a jew.
Footballs are made out of cow hide. 3000 cows are used to supply the NFL with the footballs.
Pretty sure he is catholic and not a Jew. So, he’s fine.
[quote]He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all
the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev. 24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
Timothy 1:22 states - I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man She is to keep silent! I interpret this as: â??Quiet Woman! Thou shalt maketh me a sandwich, with haste!â?? Am I way off base here?[/quote]
Yes, this is for the hierarchy of the Church (Deacons, Priests, Bishops, Sees, and Popes) and the pulpit. Has nothing to do with marriage or sandwich making.
Not jewish.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Thought this was pretty funny. Feel free to contribute or comment.
[/quote]
Well, you are not Jewish, so most of this stuff is not required if you.
[quote]
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice,
I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev. 1:9 The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?[/quote]
There is no temple, so can’t make any sacrifices.
Not a jew.
[quote]
Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves,
both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?[/quote]
Not a jew.
Not a jew.
Not a jew. But, homosexuality goes against natural law, where shellfish goes against Kosher/Mosaic Law.
You are not a Jew or a Levite and there is no temple, so there is no altar of God to approach.
[quote]Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed,
including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27
How should they die?[/quote]
You are not a jew.
Footballs are made out of cow hide. 3000 cows are used to supply the NFL with the footballs.
Pretty sure he is catholic and not a Jew. So, he’s fine.
[quote]He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all
the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev. 24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
Timothy 1:22 states - I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man She is to keep silent! I interpret this as: �¢??Quiet Woman! Thou shalt maketh me a sandwich, with haste!�¢?? Am I way off base here?[/quote]
Yes, this is for the hierarchy of the Church (Deacons, Priests, Bishops, Sees, and Popes) and the pulpit. Has nothing to do with marriage or sandwich making.
Not jewish.[/quote]
where does it say that these laws are only for Jews and not for Christians?
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice,
I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev. 1:9 The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
[/quote]
There are similar answers to all of these, but I’ll just use this one, for example because I happen to be a Cohanim (a type of Levite) so I know about this off the top of my head.
Leviticus contains laws that primarily only apply to Levites, so, number one, unless the “you” in the scenario is a Levite, and, more specifically, the High Priest, it doesn’t apply.
Perhaps more importantly (as there are ample Cohanim around – generally named “Cohen”), sacrifices only apply when the Temple exists and is in operation. Last time I looked out the window, there was a large pagan golden domed structure on top of the Temple Mount and no Temple.
So, in short, the scenario is stupid.
I can do this with all the relevant sections, if you want, but I just started at the top.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Why is Deuteronomy even a part of the Bible?
I mean, this is some seriously fucked up shit you guys preach…[/quote]
Well, it doesn’t apply to gentiles (in general), so why do you care?
[quote]hmm87 wrote:
where does it say that these laws are only for Jews and not for Christians?[/quote]
Read the bit about “covenant of Mt. Sinai” Explained rather clearly.
The laws the apply to gentiles [how I am reading “Christians” but which is not necessarily correct] are the Laws of Noah.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]hmm87 wrote:
where does it say that these laws are only for Jews and not for Christians?[/quote]
Read the bit about “covenant of Mt. Sinai” Explained rather clearly.
The laws the apply to gentiles [how I am reading “Christians” but which is not necessarily correct] are the Laws of Noah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah[/quote]
Thank you.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
There are similar answers to all of these, but I’ll just use this one, for example because I happen to be a Cohanim (a type of Levite) so I know about this off the top of my head.
[/quote]
I was under the impression that Kohanim cannot marry proselytes.
If you had a son, would you welcome a non-Jewish daughter-in-law if she converted?
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
There are similar answers to all of these, but I’ll just use this one, for example because I happen to be a Cohanim (a type of Levite) so I know about this off the top of my head.
[/quote]
I was under the impression that Kohanim cannot marry proselytes.
[/quote]
I’m not married to a proselyte.
[quote]
If you had a son, would you welcome a non-Jewish daughter-in-law if she converted?[/quote]
My only son was killed by the PLO, so I suppose I will never know.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
There are similar answers to all of these, but I’ll just use this one, for example because I happen to be a Cohanim (a type of Levite) so I know about this off the top of my head.
[/quote]
I was under the impression that Kohanim cannot marry proselytes.
[/quote]
I’m not married to a proselyte.
Very sorry to hear that.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
If you don’t understand the context, it can be conflicting. Trouble is, it takes a great deal of study to learn the true history and context. [/quote]
What context is there to understand?
Right now, we are all calling the Muslim extremists barbarians for what they are doing in Iraq (killing people, crucifying people, convert or die, etc…). But according to the Bible, God tells his people to put the men to the sword. Kill all the women who have lied down with a man. Save the virgin girls for yourselves. And to kill babies…On multiple occasions.
What am I not understanding here?
Those are the requests of a fucking psychopath…[/quote]
There is A LOT of context to understand in the OT. The historical context in which it was written would be very easy to understand for the original audience since they lived in those times. And your writing for a primarily uneducated nomadic (in the beginning) minority in the ancient world. Qualification of everything is something they would not understand.
The Pentateuch, from which you quoted primarily are legal and historical books. Primarily legal, and not a complete history. It was a history of the ancient Hebrews and it tells there story. Like any discipline, religion for the Judeo-Christian traditions studies it’s own history. You need to know where you came from to understand where you are at.
Some of the accounts are brutal, but they fit the world they lived in at the time which was brutal.
The customs of the time were barbaric, women were chattel and people sold their own family into slavery. This was not unique to the Hebrews.
And again, you are dealing with uncivilized, uneducated, brutal and barbaric people.
Explaining to them the intricacies or moral theory and explaining why you should do this instead of that was unconvincing.
You’re dealing with people who had to be told not to have sex with their livestock and that eating buzzards and vultures is not a good idea. They were also very superstitious would worship and sacrifice to pretty much anything.
So how do you get those people to listen and right their ways and get everybody on the same page? You speak to them in a way they understand.
This is what you do, this is who you offer you sacrifices to, this is how you treat each other, these are your commandments and if you don’t it’s your ass.
But it wasn’t all negative reinforcement. If you keep the commandments and obey you will be blessed. Your harvests will be plenty, your livestock will flourish, you will have plenty of land and lots of children. If you disobey and think you know better then your ass is grass.
Simple terms for simple people.
If we lived in the 18th - 14th centuries BC this would not appear strange at all to us. It would be quite normal and more than that it would seem to us somewhat advanced comparatively.
What seems to us gross and barbaric was normal to them. That’s the world they lived in.
It would actually be frightening if in 21st century western civilization if this type of stuff didn’t seem barbaric to us.
We have advanced, as we should have, since those times and in many ways we have the ancient Hebrews to thank for the advancements we have made, particularly in our understanding of morality.
If the ancient Hebrews did not succeed and thrive and become a great Israelite nation with great influence in the old world, who knows what kind of world we would live in today.
We have no way of knowing, perhaps we’d still be screwing our live stock had it not been for the advancement of the Hebrews in to the great Kingdom of Israel.[/quote]
I agree ONE HUNDRED PERCENT with everything you just wrote. I fully believe that the Bible was a WONDERFUL tool for population control. I think the people that wrote it (and later translated it and changed/refined it) were doing so with the goals of managing a civilization and moving in a positive direction. That’s all well and good back when, as you put it, people were trying to have sex with their barn animals. But we don’t live in those times anymore…
The whole idea that people think the Bible is… “TRUE” is what disturbs me. How any rational adult can believe that bullshit is FASCINATING to me. I’m not saying I don’t think it was useful or that it isn’t artfully written or anything like that. And there is a certain comfort in ritual that can be beneficial to achieving certain states of mind and productivity or tranquility.
But we have otherwise BRILLIANT people who actually believe in the equivalent of Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny… People who want to TEACH IN SCHOOLS that the earth is only 5000 years old (or whatever the number is) because “that’s what the Bible says”… That’s retarded…
Then they come with, “well God loves you, he loves everybody - just don’t be gay or eat shrimp (but he’s kinda forgotten about the shrimp part, but you’d BETTER not be gay)”.
It boggles my little brain how any rational person can A) believe that bullshit and/or B) WANT to be associated with an historically infant killing, rape condoning psychopath who will TO THIS DAY, send an innocent baby to hell because you don’t put a drop of water on his forehead (but says he loves you unconditionally - just don’t love any other Gods before him - NOT that any other Gods exist, mind you, there is only ONE TRUE GOD, but don’t worship any others, mmmmkay?).
[/quote]
“I agree ONE HUNDRED PERCENT with everything you just wrote.” ← Uh oh. The price of unintended consequences. 
Well, AC. I believe the Bible is TRUE. Not in the sense that every word of it is made to be literal. I don’t think even our ancient ancestors thought it was literal. Creation for instance, is accounted for 20+ different times in the Bible.
And for instance in the Book of Joshua, you have them putting every living thing to the sword, let not one thing live. Yet, later in the book, you have Joshua giving instructions on how to deal with the remaining populations of the conquered places. So perhaps, they missed a few, or the order was mixed with a little hyperbole.
Nevertheless, I am glad God is not a big squishy teddy bear, that people have mistaken Christianity to be a portrayal of. Yes, there is lots of love in a Godly world view. But there is justice too. I am glad that God is something to be feared if you go against him. I like the idea that evil can and does get dealt with harshly. That people who appear to fear nothing can be brought to their knees and their evil come to nothing. I like that good will always conquer evil and evil gets decimated.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Arkansas Constitution Art 19, Sec 1 states that no person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil department of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court.
Massage Therapy is considered an adult, erotic service ans is banned in all zoning districts in Horneytown, NC
PROSTITUTION IS ILLEGAL IN ALL STATES BUT NEVADA
Any statement, picture, or illustration referring to Easter, Holy Week, Mother?s Day, ?Santa Claus,? including names synonymous with ?Santa Claus?, or a religious holiday or religious symbol, which promotes the sale, service, or consumption of alcoholic beverages shall be prohibited. Nothing in this section shall prohibit references to Christmas or any other holiday season if the references do not include statements, pictures, or illustrations on strictly religious themes. In Washington DC
This one is right out of the Old Testament: in New Jersey, couples must wait at least 72 hours to be married unless the man has raped the woman. LMAO I thought that OT shit didn’t apply anymore? Ooops…
Alabama Section 13A-12-1 Certain acts prohibited on Sunday
Any person who compels his child, apprentice or servant to perform any labor on Sunday, except the customary domestic duties of daily necessity or comfort, or works of charity or who engages in shooting, hunting, gaming, card playing or racing on that day, or who, being a merchant or shopkeeper, druggist excepted, keeps open store on Sunday, shall be fined not less than $10.00 nor more than $100.00, and may also be imprisoned in the county jail, or sentenced to hard labor for the county, for not more than three months. However, the provisions of this section shall not apply to the operation of railroads, airlines, bus lines, communications, public utilities or steamboats or other vessels navigating the waters of this state, or to any manufacturing establishment which is required to be kept in constant operation, or to the sale of gasoline or other motor fuels or motor oils. Nor shall this section prohibit the sale of newspapers, or the operation of newsstands, or automobile repair shops, florist shops, fruit stands, ice cream shops or parlors, lunch stands or restaurants, delicatessens or plants engaged in the manufacture or sale of ice; provided, that such business establishments are not operated in conjunction with some other kind or type of business which is prohibited by this section. It shall also be lawful to engage in motorcycle and automobile racing on Sunday, whether admission is charged or not; except, that this proviso shall not be construed to prevent any municipality from passing ordinances prohibiting such racing on Sunday.
Women who sit on men’s laps on busses or trains without placing a pillow between them face an automatic six month jail term, Seattle Washington.
http://www.stupidlaws.com/tag/religion/
Let’s talk about prostitution… Perfectly legal in Nevada, why not everywhere?
[/quote]
It’s not legal everywhere in Nevada, just 8 counties, not including Clark which contains Las Vegas. However, I agree with you that it’s not really the governments business if you want to pay for sex. It’s not something I would do legal or not.
But I don’t think it’s a simple as women who are freelancing. There is a systematic and inherent abuse of women by pimps and brothel owners that making it legal a really tricky thing to do. It’s not as simple as the good old days, people can get sick and die from these encounters, both client and prostitute. Protecting both patron and prostitute is difficult.
So while ideologically, I would agree it should be legal. Doing so in a way that doesn’t allow for tremendous abuse is next to impossible. It’s for reasons of abuse and human dignity that if I were a legislator, I would vote against it. Not because of religion.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
If you don’t understand the context, it can be conflicting. Trouble is, it takes a great deal of study to learn the true history and context. [/quote]
What context is there to understand?
Right now, we are all calling the Muslim extremists barbarians for what they are doing in Iraq (killing people, crucifying people, convert or die, etc…). But according to the Bible, God tells his people to put the men to the sword. Kill all the women who have lied down with a man. Save the virgin girls for yourselves. And to kill babies…On multiple occasions.
What am I not understanding here?
Those are the requests of a fucking psychopath…[/quote]
There is A LOT of context to understand in the OT. The historical context in which it was written would be very easy to understand for the original audience since they lived in those times. And your writing for a primarily uneducated nomadic (in the beginning) minority in the ancient world. Qualification of everything is something they would not understand.
The Pentateuch, from which you quoted primarily are legal and historical books. Primarily legal, and not a complete history. It was a history of the ancient Hebrews and it tells there story. Like any discipline, religion for the Judeo-Christian traditions studies it’s own history. You need to know where you came from to understand where you are at.
Some of the accounts are brutal, but they fit the world they lived in at the time which was brutal.
The customs of the time were barbaric, women were chattel and people sold their own family into slavery. This was not unique to the Hebrews.
And again, you are dealing with uncivilized, uneducated, brutal and barbaric people.
Explaining to them the intricacies or moral theory and explaining why you should do this instead of that was unconvincing.
You’re dealing with people who had to be told not to have sex with their livestock and that eating buzzards and vultures is not a good idea. They were also very superstitious would worship and sacrifice to pretty much anything.
So how do you get those people to listen and right their ways and get everybody on the same page? You speak to them in a way they understand.
This is what you do, this is who you offer you sacrifices to, this is how you treat each other, these are your commandments and if you don’t it’s your ass.
But it wasn’t all negative reinforcement. If you keep the commandments and obey you will be blessed. Your harvests will be plenty, your livestock will flourish, you will have plenty of land and lots of children. If you disobey and think you know better then your ass is grass.
Simple terms for simple people.
If we lived in the 18th - 14th centuries BC this would not appear strange at all to us. It would be quite normal and more than that it would seem to us somewhat advanced comparatively.
What seems to us gross and barbaric was normal to them. That’s the world they lived in.
It would actually be frightening if in 21st century western civilization if this type of stuff didn’t seem barbaric to us.
We have advanced, as we should have, since those times and in many ways we have the ancient Hebrews to thank for the advancements we have made, particularly in our understanding of morality.
If the ancient Hebrews did not succeed and thrive and become a great Israelite nation with great influence in the old world, who knows what kind of world we would live in today.
We have no way of knowing, perhaps we’d still be screwing our live stock had it not been for the advancement of the Hebrews in to the great Kingdom of Israel.[/quote]
I agree ONE HUNDRED PERCENT with everything you just wrote. I fully believe that the Bible was a WONDERFUL tool for population control. I think the people that wrote it (and later translated it and changed/refined it) were doing so with the goals of managing a civilization and moving in a positive direction. That’s all well and good back when, as you put it, people were trying to have sex with their barn animals. But we don’t live in those times anymore…
The whole idea that people think the Bible is… “TRUE” is what disturbs me. How any rational adult can believe that bullshit is FASCINATING to me. I’m not saying I don’t think it was useful or that it isn’t artfully written or anything like that. And there is a certain comfort in ritual that can be beneficial to achieving certain states of mind and productivity or tranquility.
But we have otherwise BRILLIANT people who actually believe in the equivalent of Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny… People who want to TEACH IN SCHOOLS that the earth is only 5000 years old (or whatever the number is) because “that’s what the Bible says”… That’s retarded…
Then they come with, “well God loves you, he loves everybody - just don’t be gay or eat shrimp (but he’s kinda forgotten about the shrimp part, but you’d BETTER not be gay)”.
It boggles my little brain how any rational person can A) believe that bullshit and/or B) WANT to be associated with an historically infant killing, rape condoning psychopath who will TO THIS DAY, send an innocent baby to hell because you don’t put a drop of water on his forehead (but says he loves you unconditionally - just don’t love any other Gods before him - NOT that any other Gods exist, mind you, there is only ONE TRUE GOD, but don’t worship any others, mmmmkay?).
[/quote]
“I agree ONE HUNDRED PERCENT with everything you just wrote.” ← Uh oh. The price of unintended consequences.
Well, AC. I believe the Bible is TRUE. Not in the sense that every word of it is made to be literal. I don’t think even our ancient ancestors thought it was literal. Creation for instance, is accounted for 20+ different times in the Bible.
And for instance in the Book of Joshua, you have them putting every living thing to the sword, let not one thing live. Yet, later in the book, you have Joshua giving instructions on how to deal with the remaining populations of the conquered places. So perhaps, they missed a few, or the order was mixed with a little hyperbole.
Nevertheless, I am glad God is not a big squishy teddy bear, that people have mistaken Christianity to be a portrayal of. Yes, there is lots of love in a Godly world view. But there is justice too. I am glad that God is something to be feared if you go against him. I like the idea that evil can and does get dealt with harshly. That people who appear to fear nothing can be brought to their knees and their evil come to nothing. I like that good will always conquer evil and evil gets decimated. [/quote]
Okay, I have a legitimate question about all of this.
First of all, I’m coming to this thread a little late so I’ve probably missed this distinction. Are we referring here to the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible from which the Old Testament is based?
It seems to me that there is a HUGE distinction between the two and that if it hasn’t already been clarified, then it should be at this juncture. The Hebrew Bible (and I’m probably oversimplifying things here) mandates adherence to moral laws such as what AC has been pointing out. However, with the advent of Christianity there has since been an unending debate as to whether or not adherence to these laws is necessary. Antinomians (and I don’t use the term in a negative light but in the more modern sense) argue that faith is the only prerequisite for salvation. This notion has its own opponents within Christianity.
My point is that it is inaccurate to say that it was or was not meant to be taken literally. For some branches and schools of thought within Christianity, the moral laws set forth in the Old Testament are immaterial; for others, those laws are the very fiber of Christian beliefs about the path to salvation.
But if we go back all the way to the inspiration for the Old Testament, Mosaic Law (mitzvah), it seems to me that any deviation from these laws is nothing more than moral relativism. The 611 commandments handed down by Moses, plus the first two of the Ten (the ones that God actually spoke to Moses), are allegedly a transmission on the part of God through Moses. So to say that they weren’t meant to be taken literally is to say that God was not meant to be taken literally.
My question is this: if we aren’t to take the Law literally, then who gets to decide which ones are for real and which ones are “figurative” laws? Is this moral relativism? I would argue that it is the epitome of moral relativism.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
If you don’t understand the context, it can be conflicting. Trouble is, it takes a great deal of study to learn the true history and context. [/quote]
What context is there to understand?
Right now, we are all calling the Muslim extremists barbarians for what they are doing in Iraq (killing people, crucifying people, convert or die, etc…). But according to the Bible, God tells his people to put the men to the sword. Kill all the women who have lied down with a man. Save the virgin girls for yourselves. And to kill babies…On multiple occasions.
What am I not understanding here?
Those are the requests of a fucking psychopath…[/quote]
There is A LOT of context to understand in the OT. The historical context in which it was written would be very easy to understand for the original audience since they lived in those times. And your writing for a primarily uneducated nomadic (in the beginning) minority in the ancient world. Qualification of everything is something they would not understand.
The Pentateuch, from which you quoted primarily are legal and historical books. Primarily legal, and not a complete history. It was a history of the ancient Hebrews and it tells there story. Like any discipline, religion for the Judeo-Christian traditions studies it’s own history. You need to know where you came from to understand where you are at.
Some of the accounts are brutal, but they fit the world they lived in at the time which was brutal.
The customs of the time were barbaric, women were chattel and people sold their own family into slavery. This was not unique to the Hebrews.
And again, you are dealing with uncivilized, uneducated, brutal and barbaric people.
Explaining to them the intricacies or moral theory and explaining why you should do this instead of that was unconvincing.
You’re dealing with people who had to be told not to have sex with their livestock and that eating buzzards and vultures is not a good idea. They were also very superstitious would worship and sacrifice to pretty much anything.
So how do you get those people to listen and right their ways and get everybody on the same page? You speak to them in a way they understand.
This is what you do, this is who you offer you sacrifices to, this is how you treat each other, these are your commandments and if you don’t it’s your ass.
But it wasn’t all negative reinforcement. If you keep the commandments and obey you will be blessed. Your harvests will be plenty, your livestock will flourish, you will have plenty of land and lots of children. If you disobey and think you know better then your ass is grass.
Simple terms for simple people.
If we lived in the 18th - 14th centuries BC this would not appear strange at all to us. It would be quite normal and more than that it would seem to us somewhat advanced comparatively.
What seems to us gross and barbaric was normal to them. That’s the world they lived in.
It would actually be frightening if in 21st century western civilization if this type of stuff didn’t seem barbaric to us.
We have advanced, as we should have, since those times and in many ways we have the ancient Hebrews to thank for the advancements we have made, particularly in our understanding of morality.
If the ancient Hebrews did not succeed and thrive and become a great Israelite nation with great influence in the old world, who knows what kind of world we would live in today.
We have no way of knowing, perhaps we’d still be screwing our live stock had it not been for the advancement of the Hebrews in to the great Kingdom of Israel.[/quote]
I agree ONE HUNDRED PERCENT with everything you just wrote. I fully believe that the Bible was a WONDERFUL tool for population control. I think the people that wrote it (and later translated it and changed/refined it) were doing so with the goals of managing a civilization and moving in a positive direction. That’s all well and good back when, as you put it, people were trying to have sex with their barn animals. But we don’t live in those times anymore…
The whole idea that people think the Bible is… “TRUE” is what disturbs me. How any rational adult can believe that bullshit is FASCINATING to me. I’m not saying I don’t think it was useful or that it isn’t artfully written or anything like that. And there is a certain comfort in ritual that can be beneficial to achieving certain states of mind and productivity or tranquility.
But we have otherwise BRILLIANT people who actually believe in the equivalent of Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny… People who want to TEACH IN SCHOOLS that the earth is only 5000 years old (or whatever the number is) because “that’s what the Bible says”… That’s retarded…
Then they come with, “well God loves you, he loves everybody - just don’t be gay or eat shrimp (but he’s kinda forgotten about the shrimp part, but you’d BETTER not be gay)”.
It boggles my little brain how any rational person can A) believe that bullshit and/or B) WANT to be associated with an historically infant killing, rape condoning psychopath who will TO THIS DAY, send an innocent baby to hell because you don’t put a drop of water on his forehead (but says he loves you unconditionally - just don’t love any other Gods before him - NOT that any other Gods exist, mind you, there is only ONE TRUE GOD, but don’t worship any others, mmmmkay?).
[/quote]
“I agree ONE HUNDRED PERCENT with everything you just wrote.” ← Uh oh. The price of unintended consequences.
Well, AC. I believe the Bible is TRUE. Not in the sense that every word of it is made to be literal. I don’t think even our ancient ancestors thought it was literal. Creation for instance, is accounted for 20+ different times in the Bible.
And for instance in the Book of Joshua, you have them putting every living thing to the sword, let not one thing live. Yet, later in the book, you have Joshua giving instructions on how to deal with the remaining populations of the conquered places. So perhaps, they missed a few, or the order was mixed with a little hyperbole.
Nevertheless, I am glad God is not a big squishy teddy bear, that people have mistaken Christianity to be a portrayal of. Yes, there is lots of love in a Godly world view. But there is justice too. I am glad that God is something to be feared if you go against him. I like the idea that evil can and does get dealt with harshly. That people who appear to fear nothing can be brought to their knees and their evil come to nothing. I like that good will always conquer evil and evil gets decimated. [/quote]
Okay, I have a legitimate question about all of this.
First of all, I’m coming to this thread a little late so I’ve probably missed this distinction. Are we referring here to the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible from which the Old Testament is based?
It seems to me that there is a HUGE distinction between the two and that if it hasn’t already been clarified, then it should be at this juncture. The Hebrew Bible (and I’m probably oversimplifying things here) mandates adherence to moral laws such as what AC has been pointing out. However, with the advent of Christianity there has since been an unending debate as to whether or not adherence to these laws is necessary. Antinomians (and I don’t use the term in a negative light but in the more modern sense) argue that faith is the only prerequisite for salvation. This notion has its own opponents within Christianity.
My point is that it is inaccurate to say that it was or was not meant to be taken literally. For some branches and schools of thought within Christianity, the moral laws set forth in the Old Testament are immaterial; for others, those laws are the very fiber of Christian beliefs about the path to salvation.
But if we go back all the way to the inspiration for the Old Testament, Mosaic Law (mitzvah), it seems to me that any deviation from these laws is nothing more than moral relativism. The 611 commandments handed down by Moses, plus the first two of the Ten (the ones that God actually spoke to Moses), are allegedly a transmission on the part of God through Moses. So to say that they weren’t meant to be taken literally is to say that God was not meant to be taken literally.
My question is this: if we aren’t to take the Law literally, then who gets to decide which ones are for real and which ones are “figurative” laws? Is this moral relativism? I would argue that it is the epitome of moral relativism.[/quote]
There is not any ‘moral relativism’ going on. The OT isn’t one thing or one type of thing. There are many different writings for many different purposes. Depending on the topic, message, audience, etc. (I.E. context) Different readings are meant to be read different ways.
The original audiences would have had no issue with the distinctions. There is allegory, prophecy, history, poetry, etc. All present in the OT. It’s not all one way or another. It’s discerning the purpose on context of the particular text you are reading that guides you in how it should be taken. That’s why there are doctoral courses on Biblical exegesis. It’s not an easy study. You have to step into these people’s shoes to try and understand it the way they did.
It has a purpose and religion like any good study, studies it’s own history. It’s important to know where you came from to know where you are and where you are going.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
My only son was killed by the PLO, so I suppose I will never know.
[/quote]
Nothing I could ever say or do would ever be helpful to you, even ‘I’m sorry’ doesn’t cut it. But I support you, I think highly of you, and I know your son is with God Almighty, shining down on you.