The bible and slavery...

Off Topic
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EXHITERSCOTT: Sorry, man, but you cannot stand your ground and be all things to all people. Calling things by their name will always disturb some people.

“The masses have never thirsted after truth…whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim…”

Gustave Le Bon, 1895

Some people can`t handle the truth or facts. Specially if the same people have invested much in concept X, have attached their identity or ego to it, or are emotional / immature / irrational about it.

If I like X, I will automatically offend/be judged by non-X thinkers. Your (smokescreen) finger pointing tactics (those who call X are bad) will not change the validity of the point. Or Diesels point of view. He believes what he believes. Period. What can you say more, other than you do not agree? If you feel like changing peoples points of view, please provides FACTS or LOGICAL ARGUMENTS if you want a debate worthy of the name, not finger-pointing tactics.

As for religion, I recognize some people will always need it. Like Goldberg said, it should be a one-to-X relationship. There should be no human intervention in the process, no pyramid system, no organized cliques. Give people the books, let them think by themselves. NO RELIGION/CULT BASED MASSES, GATHERINGS, CROWDS OR SIMILAR REAL-LIFE GROUPINGS. Keep it One-to-X.

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DanC, the exact number is 29,233X.2.

C’mon man, yes people always bring up the crusades, but forget about the world wars, vietnam, countless revolutions, revolts, civil conflicts, mass murders, across the globe, honestly Danc, even if we only look at ancient history there was so much more going on in the world than just the “Crusades” or Isrealite conquest. Face it, it’s a weak and laughable argument, but I’ll give you some advice for next time to give you a leg to stand on. You see like you said religion of some type exists everywhere, therefore in any conflict you could almost argue that religion was a root cause, it’s still kind of weak and far from the truth, like saying that religion caused both wars in Iraq, the Korean war, etc…

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DanC,

I take it back, your whole “Some people can’t handle the truth” arguments are what’s laughable!

You see Dan, everything you said in your little rant can be just as easily applied to you and to your beleifs. Let me illustrate…

Dan likes X(X=no beleif/ahteism/never cared or thought about it, etc.), he will automatically offend/be judged by non-X thinkers.

And well Dan, as far as this next statement goes…

“If you feel like changing people`s points of view, please provides FACTS or LOGICAL ARGUMENTS if you want a debate worthy of the name, not finger-pointing tactics”

I have plenty of facts ready to go, I’ll make it easy on you even and not use any scripture. But do you have any facts or logical arguments to prove my beleifs wrong?

Once more I’ll wrap up with a thought from Pascal (a favorite Christian apologist)

“You beleive that after death there is nothing, I beleive that after death there is victory. If you are right, then we both lose. But if I am right however, you still lose and I gain everything.”

You see, Pascal was a logical thinker and mathmatecian, he was playing the odds in such a way that he at least had a chance at something… I am just trying to get you thinking though man, however I do agree with what you pointed out about people not being able to change ones beleifs (for the most part), I am simply defending my own.

Enjoy the long weekend, fireworks, and bbq man!

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AGATHOS: No problem. Nice counter-arguments. I’ll get back to you when I have more time, most probably tomorrow. Happy 4th!

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DanC,

I guess bigotry is ok…as long as its bigotry against religious folk.

I am more than willing to merely say, “I disagree.” However, that is not where diesel led the discussion. He took it one step further and revealed his biogtry. So, I called him on it. But I guess it is ok because it was directed towards “religious” folks.

BTW, I generally agree with your and Goldberg’s sentiments (personal relationship, One-to-X, etc.). However, the broad stroked biogtry does not allow us to get to those kind of discernments.

I am more than prepared to have a logical/rational discussion with someone, but I would rather do it with someone who is really interested in having a true open-minded discussion (I normally don’t debate with groups KKK folks either as it is pointless). So, if interested the PM thing works fine (for anyone), otherwise, I will just sit back and let others debate with you (and whoever else).

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I would like to withdraw my statements re: diesel. The more I think about it and give it context with some of his other posts, I see what he is getting at. My bad.

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Agathos: you are a nutbar. I wasn’t ranting about morality, I was expressing my views about morality relative to religion.

** BEGIN RANT

Here it is, plain as day. Atheist parents can instill better moral values than religious parents. Does this always happen? No, but it can happen. Morality is the acceptance of the “clean slate” that you are born with. Morality is directly correlated to survival, a very basic instinct. For me, there is an emotional attachment to many things in life, including sex; I try to have respect for these things. Religion is control; religious people don’t like it when people actually think for themselves or find things for themselves.

Goldberg said it best; there is a difference between religion and a personal relationship with God.

GOD DOESN’T BELONG TO CHRISTIANS, EVERYONE BELONGS TO GOD.

** END RANT

I’ve known atheists who were far better models for a God-like life than the Bible thumpers who want to control you.

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The Crusades are a weak and laughable argument? Its a perfect example of Christians building an army and then using this power to make other Christians or “else”. They did it for money and power; it was about control, not understanding.

Give it a rest already, there is so much hypocrisy in religion its not funny.

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Deezldog…of course there is hypocrisy in Christianity. You are dealing with HUMANS…and whenever you do that…you will have flaws and sin. That doesn’t make following Jesus wrong. It means you need to reexamine your life with Christ and hack the hypocrisy out of your life and repent and let Christ shine from the inside out. We are saved throug grace unto good works and righteous living. Not every Christian is going to really live like they should. It doesn’t make Christianity invalid…Christ was the only perfect person because He was God. We are to be imitators of Christ. Saved by Grace…like Snow covered dung…and called to be transformed to His likeness over time. Seeing hypocrisy doesn’t make Christ invalid…it shows the deplorable sinful heart of man and the strength of the Devil and the NEED for a Redeemer! No other “religion” provides for this…NOT BUDDHA…NOT MUHAMMED!!!

and JPFITNESS…when is the last time you have been BLUDGEONED!!!

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MONTROSEFAN: What happened to total self-reliance?

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AGATHOS: As promised. =0)

Crusades: Like I said, I refer to the little I know and trust of History. My sample is willingly small, for reasons mentionned up above, but small at is it is, I would not go as far as saying, like you do, that it is not true (weak) because of all the rest of the pool of atrocities. An historical fact remains a fact, even if you drown it in tons of similar scaled events.

I wont go to review each event you listed, but, if you recall well, I put crowds in the puppet category for all events before the second half of the 20th century. Upon reading your added data, I upgraded my thoughts to include both sides : the puppet masters (religious/cult leader/force backed <b><i>mentality</b></i>) and the puppets (people technologically or willingly blind of facts before making decisions). I wont go in the second half of the 20th century (Korea, Vietnam, etc). That is topic for a thread by itself.

Atheism: Youre right. The mechanic can be reversed. I focus on what can be proven. If the other party wants to disagree (and forfeit the burden of proof), what can I say except not agree ? I cant force them.

Coming from a scientific background, I expect people to have backup based on reality, and premises that can be questionned. I also happen to believe that science has produced far more beneficial spinoffs for everybody (read : standards of living through math, engineering, chemistry, physics, medecine, research, etc.) than religion. In short, science is responsible for more developments and discoveries in the 20th century than of the preceding centuries combined.

Can you blame me for prefering a mentality that stands the test of time and gets results that most people appreciate instead of air? Again, you may differ in your opinion. Religion, however, could have been the fuel that led up to these searches in some cases.

As for proving your scriptures wrong: I hope you have tangible (scientific) evidence in hand. I choose not to believe PRECISELY because I chose not to bother with the lack of data / ethereal / imaginary / ideologic aspects of mysticism. Reality by itself is a handful. Until scientific data (and not fraudulent evidence) comes in that can validate religious beliefs (mysticism), why bother ? In short : Scientific Data In : Rules Out. No scientific Data In : Impossible to analyse : Why bother and speculate? There`s so much REAL work to do…

Blaise Pascal: Gotta give the guy credit for having studied both sides of the fence, something very rare (population percentage wise).

What I found most surprising, in the end, was that he sewed Renunciation, total and sweet into his coat so that he could wear it next to his heart. He abandoned mathematics and physics, swore off high living, dropped his old friends, sold all his possessions except for his religious books, and, a short while later, took up residence in the monastery of Port-Royal in Paris. Six years later, he also wrote :

I can scarcely remember that there is such a thing as Geometry (i.e. mathematics). I recognize Geometry to be so useless that I can find little difference between a man who is a geometrician and a clever craftsman. Although I call it the best craft in the world it is, after all, nothing else but a craft?It is quite possible I shall never think of it again.

The same thing could be said of any craft, scientific or religious. Curious turn of events for Pascal. Still, a legend. Do you have any good book references about him ? Always open to debate, as long as you keep it on the intellectual level. Good week-end !

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Hey Dan! Hope you had a good weekend and BBQ! I was hoping you’d post, honestly I really enjoy debating this topic, however I don’t beleive in jumping into a thread like “For Non-Christians” etc. and pushing my ideas… don’t want to become the “annoying arrogant Christian” y’know.

Which brings me to the first topic, scriptures. What I meant in my previous post was that I don’t like to use scriptures when debating spiritual topics w non-beleivers. Can you blame me? I’ll admit there are some really annoying Christians out there who don’t understand that you can’t just throw out “verses” in a discussion like this and do any good… what good does it do to quote verses to someone who puts no tangibility in the Bible? Looking at it from your point of view I think that would simply be annoying and laughable, and if I were you I probably wouldn’t waste my time with them… that’s what I really meant by not using scriptures.

Crusades

The first point I wanted to make in my previous post was that I beleive an argument like “religion has claimed more lives than any other reason” is hardly useable because it is impossible to actually relate any war or event solely to religion, much less attribute more deaths to it than any other “reason.” For instance in the Crusades you could argue that that was the main factor, however I beleive it was likely just an excuse used to convince masses of people of the “just cause” to begin a campaign. What I am getting at is that you can’t really contribute an event soley to religious causes, it leaves too much for interpretation…

THAT being said I will address the REAL agrument of the Crusades, that Christianity is guilty, so guilty of at least contributing to violence, used to control masses, full of hypocrosy, used for profit, etc., etc. Christianity is guilty of many things. However, it is guilty of nothing that any other idea is not as well. Consider Communism, personal morality, freedom, even atheism, these are just samples of “ideas” much like religions such as Christianity and guilty of all the same things, such as hypocrisy, used to control the masses or for profit, used as a call to violence, etc.

Blaise Pascal:

Ahh, you see I am a very logical thinker with a technical background and lots of personal studies in physics, mathematics, etc. and was surprised to learn that Pascal was a well-known Christian apologists.

Check out “The Mind on Fire: A Faith for the Skeptical and Indifferent by Blaise Pascal” Again, like Pascal I am a very logical thinker, and I want hardcore facts, artifacts, eye-witness accounts from someone other than the types you see on religious channels, etc. Basically Pascal approaches faith in the same manner I had too. Also check out “Pensees” by Pascal. Basically this is a collection of notes, studies, ideas, etc. that were found in his room and study shortly after his death and collected and contains some of his most popular work as an apologist. Much of CS Lewis’s (remember the Narnia series?) apologist work is in the same path of thought as well…

On a side note check out Amazon’s “buy used and new” feature, you can get these books as well as many others in excellent condition for under $5!!!

Facts, Evidence, Etc.

I beleive many would be surprised to find just how much evidence exists to prove the events, history, etc. depicted in the Bible. However, you have to remember that Christianity is not based on the history of the Bible but on the beleif that God came to earth in the flesh, was resurected, etc. Nothing my friend will ever be able to prove that (or many of the miracles depicted in the bible). That is why it’s called faith. The Bible even touches on this subject, requirement of faith vs. fact and why it is required, but again no scripture…

As a last thought, many scientists, historians, archeologists, doctors, etc. have dedicated their lives to Christ. Like myself these people are likely some of the hardest to convince. But something did convince them…

I kind of typed this quick, let me know if there are holes in my arguments, that’s the value of this discussion to me.

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Does God condone slavery in the Bible?

Old Testament

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html

New Testament

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslavent.html

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AGATHOS: Excellent. It may take a while for my other answers, for I have some searches and reading to do. This includes reading more of Pascal, Bernouilli and Darwin. The best would be for me to find a written work that synthesized quotes and landmarks these Genius legends to start. A la Cliff notes: the meat. I took notes of your titles. For now, along with him, Bernouilli and Fermat are my next scheduled victims. ;0)

Amazon: The auction prices are inded low. When it is time to buy, is the process simple as buying a new one or the setup is more complex (a la EBay)?

As for the Crusades, one quote I heard (dont remember the source) keeps popping to mind: <i> When resources are empty, go to War.</i> Basic, indeed, I know. I do not know the state of monopolythe Church had in Europe beforeexportingto the Middle East, but if it wasnear-monopoly` and its market was saturated (and resources depleted), that Crusades step would be a no-brainer.

Food for thought, as always. Finding a unified theory (for my own fun) about human behaviour, based on experience of many through the ages is no small undertaking. The more I read about it, the more it stands out as always gray, some do, some don`t, Karma/Tao-esque, fuzzy logic-y. At least, you pick various thought processes, knowledge and many surprises along the way.

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DanC,

Just wanted to thank you for your intelligent and well thought out comments. I rarely post from fear of getting flamed by some self-proclaimed TMan which is exactly what has happened now in the “Any christian TMen” thread.

I’ve always been careful not to “push” my beleifs on anyone, if anything just offer suggetions and an example, and do so in a way so as not to be the “annoying” Christian. Glad I could get you thinking.

The “used and new” option is easy to use and I’ve had nothing but great service and cheap cheap books with it.

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AGATHOS: Glad you had your fun too, LOL. Seriously, upgrading thoughts and mental flexibility (and putting the stupid Ego aside) of my scientific training have become an integral part of my way of seeing things, and have pleasantly rewarded through time in my case.

While I consider it far too easy to do the Bigconan thing (bump on ones chest, close ones ears and mind, mistaking this for confidence), I know it sounds wussy for most people to have flexible thinking patterns. But what does that tell ? THEY need it. IMHO, someone who can see situations from different angles is far more credible and respectable than one stuck in self-inflicted selective blindness. Those who beg to differ generally reply with one big emotionally charged, personal-truth response, which talk volumes by itself. Gets predicible after a while.

But then again, it takes all sorts of people to make a world. Thinking otherwise would be unrealistic. History has a way of proving that people will always be debating and can never be unified on anything, not even the definition of a single word.

Thanks for the book feedback. `Til next time.

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To Agathos,

Would I have preferred if a gorilla had written? Yes actually that would impress me. My point is that the Bible was not written by the almighty but by men, and thus has flaws. Your interesting history of the King James version of the Bible was written for what reason??

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hey everybody!
i’ve been a christian for as long as i can remember and since then i learned many things. one is that you can’t preasure people into asking god to be there saviour. but what you can do is basically plant a seed and let them know about jesus and that he loves you and died on the cross for your sins and to save your soul. the reason to not push past that is because you never know there might be a time in the future where something dramatic happends to them and they can look back and remember what that one person told them about a man called jesus. i have several friends that are athiest and to me are great people and friends. its there choice if they want jesus in there life or not but its my job as a christian to atleast let you know about him. a lot of christians give christian a bad name by pushing and pushing and eventualy loseing that person ever to seek jesus. there not meaning to do this. there just confused on what they are realy suppost to do.