[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Dustin wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
…Did it ever occur to you that as far as this board is concerned you’re an irrelevant piece of shit?
I’m sure many here think the same way about you!
Wow Dustin that was clever…you’ll have to draw it back a little no one can keep up with your wit.[/quote]
Thanks, I couldn’t help but to point out the irony in your personal attack on Gambit.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I am a ‘counselor’ of sorts to both of them, and I met both witnessing.[/quote]
Is it just me, or does anyone else find this hilarious?
“Counselor”?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I am a ‘counselor’ of sorts to both of them[/quote]
I pity them.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[…]I am a ‘counselor’ of sorts to both of them, and I met both witnessing.[/quote]
This interests me: if I read your earlier posts correctly, you see homosexuality as a condition worthy of therapeutic treatment. Thus, acting as a ‘counselor’ to two gay people should require medical or psychotherapeutic training.
What’s your background and training that would qualify you to work with these ‘patients’? General medical, psychological or psychiatric? What specialist training in therapy methods are we talking about? How do you handle supervision? How about crisis intervention? Any memberships in professional bodies?
Just curious.
Makkun
[quote]orion wrote:
I think the whole discussion is worthless.
If you take the WHO s definition of “healthy” nobody is. No psychiatrist or psychologist worth his salt will claim that someone is 100% mentally healthy.[/quote]
When the medical and mental health organizations conclude that gays are as “healthy” as heteros, it’s based on gays scoring within “normal” ranges on standard measures of psychological health. They’re just saying that sexual orientation doesn’t correlate with mental health, not that everyone has perfect mental health.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Well one day I met one, and down the road I met the other. Why you looking to meet more gay people?
I am a ‘counselor’ of sorts to both of them, and I met both witnessing.[/quote]
I thought you said they weren’t “gay people”?
Anyway, ask yourself this. Given that these two people deeply believe that it is wrong to be gay, and that god doesn’t want them to be gay, and feel a sense of shame, disgust, and revulsion toward being gay, do you think that might have something to do with them claiming not to be gay?
[quote]forlife wrote:
orion wrote:
I think the whole discussion is worthless.
If you take the WHO s definition of “healthy” nobody is. No psychiatrist or psychologist worth his salt will claim that someone is 100% mentally healthy.
When the medical and mental health organizations conclude that gays are as “healthy” as heteros, it’s based on gays scoring within “normal” ranges on standard measures of psychological health. They’re just saying that sexual orientation doesn’t correlate with mental health, not that everyone has perfect mental health.[/quote]
That does not really help if they choose those measures in a way that the test is bound to show no difference.
Where they do include the criterion “has sex with members of the opposite sex” all homosexuals would be sick.
Why should I fight with Zeb whether someone is “healthy” or not when nobody really is?
Since when are doctors moral authorities?
[quote]orion wrote:
That does not really help if they choose those measures in a way that the test is bound to show no difference.[/quote]
The tests do differentiate, between psychologically healthy and psychologically unhealthy people. The point is that gays do not differ from heteros on these tests, and thus are no more or less likely to be psychologically unhealthy.
Measures of mental health don’t assess morality, they assess patterns of responses that tend to be associated with psychopathological behavior.
If they do differ, perhaps it is stress-related, due to the fact that they are constantly attacked as being “dangerous to the family” or “traditional moral values,” or some such rubbish.
On a slightly different note, I find it difficult to reconcile the general anti-statist, anti-authority feeling on this board with the desire to forbid marriage among certain groups. To be opposed to groundless authority, yet to support one of the most frivolous instances of it is a contradiction which I am not capable of entertaining.
[quote]forlife wrote:
orion wrote:
That does not really help if they choose those measures in a way that the test is bound to show no difference.
The tests do differentiate, between psychologically healthy and psychologically unhealthy people. The point is that gays do not differ from heteros on these tests, and thus are no more or less likely to be psychologically unhealthy.
Since when are doctors moral authorities?
Measures of mental health don’t assess morality, they assess patterns of responses that tend to be associated with psychopathological behavior.
[/quote]
And it still does not make any difference.
That is like the question whether black people have lower IQs-
The answer of Karl Popper is “who cares?”, for whatever an IQ test measures who says that that implies any political actions?
The same is true for the question of whether homosexuality is “sick” or not.
By even debating it you concede 2/3 of your opponents arguments but if it really makes you feel good that tests that are based on rather arbitrary ideas of what is normal why not.
PS: That still does not change that you can declare anyone homosexual to be deviant if you declare heterosexual intercourse as the norm. It is all a matter of definitions and just because a few years ago notions that displease you were exchanged with notions that do does not make them any more right or wrong for there is no right or wrong with some things .
You are playing the same game as Zeb , which is probably why you two are so at it, you think that words somehow are reality. They are not, they only describe it.
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
If they do differ, perhaps it is stress-related, due to the fact that they are constantly attacked as being “dangerous to the family” or “traditional moral values,” or some such rubbish.
On a slightly different note, I find it difficult to reconcile the general anti-statist, anti-authority feeling on this board with the desire to forbid marriage among certain groups. To be opposed to groundless authority, yet to support one of the most frivolous instances of it is a contradiction which I am not capable of entertaining.[/quote]
Zeb never claimed to be a libertarian as far as I know.
The classic libertarian response to “should gays marry” is “why is that governments business and will it cost me anything?”
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
orion wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Dustin wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
…Did it ever occur to you that as far as this board is concerned you’re an irrelevant piece of shit?
I’m sure many here think the same way about you!
Wow Dustin that was clever…you’ll have to draw it back a little no one can keep up with your wit.
Whereas your wit is so incredibly sharp that it hardly hurts when it cuts…
Oh darn…there you go again…you better stick to something that you can actually understand…Like talking about pancakes. Now tell us again why you spend so much time on an American BB site? Oh yea I forgot…no life.[/quote]
What would be worse on an American BB website?
An Austrian or someone who would not recognize an olympic bar if I shoved it up his ass?
Mick28.
Scared of Austrian bodybuilders since 1972.
[quote]orion wrote:
The answer of Karl Popper is “who cares?”, for whatever an IQ test measures who says that that implies any political actions?[/quote]
It makes a difference because it informs the actions people should take. If being gay truly was a psychological disorder, then people should seek therapeutic help to work through it and become “cured”.
I didn’t realize you had a degree in psychology, and are so educated on the various standard tests of psychological health that you could label them “arbitrary ideas”.
[quote]forlife wrote:
orion wrote:
The answer of Karl Popper is “who cares?”, for whatever an IQ test measures who says that that implies any political actions?
It makes a difference because it informs the actions people should take. If being gay truly was a psychological disorder, then people should seek therapeutic help to work through it and become “cured”.
By even debating it you concede 2/3 of your opponents arguments but if it really makes you feel good that tests that are based on rather arbitrary ideas of what is normal why not.
I didn’t realize you had a degree in psychology, and are so educated on the various standard tests of psychological health that you could label them “arbitrary ideas”.[/quote]
Argumentum ad verecundiam, meh, and you know what, you win.
Today people say homosexuality is psychologically “healthy”, yesterday they though stomach acid caused ulcers and that eggs raised cholesterol.
And I used examples where they were wrong on facts and you have an even weaker case.
So today most psychiatrists agree, in the US and some parts of Europe that is, that it does not satisfy some criteria they more or less put in place beforehand and that are not really measurable in any real sense but nevertheless are the UNDYING TRUTH, in capital letters as you have noticed.
Should the pendulum ever swing back, which in an highly politicized area is at least possible and if they called it “perverted” again would you then really be willing to concede that gay marriage was wrong?
We could make it more interesting, what if US scientists agree that homosexuality is “healthy” and Russian scientists agree on that it is not?
Would your health status change depending on where you were?
Is the case for gay marriage yet suddenly objectively ethically different, depending on arbitrary borders?
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
But you never found anything ironic in Gambits personal attacks on me? Hey…could it be that you agree with him on this topic and not me?
[/quote]
Who I agree with is irrelevant. You can’t seem to disagree with anyone without resorting to childish name-calling. You have spent the majority of this thread gay-bashing and acting like a 14 year old. If he was calling you names it was probably due to your behavior and not your argument.
See what I mean?
Dude, you make it sounds like there is a special mental health test for gays. There isn’t. We’re talking about standard measures of psychological health like the MMPI, that have been tested and validated with hundreds of thousands of people across a huge range of demographics. These standard tests are not arbitrary. They statistically predict emotional and psychological disorders. The point is that gays do not differ from heteros on any of these standardized psychological tests.