You can’t have it both ways. Either homosexuality was practiced widely enough to be considered a significant cause for the decline of these civilizations, or it was rare and inconsequential.
I am not having it both ways - read up. Homosexuality was practiced “widely enough” as part of a larger menu of undisciplined decadent behavior by the detached elites, and thus drew the criticism of the larger society.
It was not considered normal or ordinary by the cultural norms of the era. That is ok - for the times, they were much more tolerant of homosexuality than some of their contemporaries.
But this desire to “correct” benighted Bible-thumpers with the notion that there exists a glorious past in Western civlization of uber-tolerance of homosexuals is not enough to sustain a fiction, which it certainly is. It simply isn’t true.
One day you will grow up and learn that the existence of facts is not predicated on whether you like them or not.
Have you got enough source material to back up this claim?
I want to see just one reliable source demonstrating that homosexuality was denounced and reviled by larger Roman society. I’m not saying that it’s not so (really have no idea), but I have not seen anything of this nature. Thunderbolt, please provide. Your saying it was the case does not make it true. [/quote]
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
but I however do read enough ancient literature to say I can spot their lofty arguments from something that has actually been proven.
No you don’t. The biggest anti-gay movement is and always will be Abrahamic religions.
What right do you have to legislate your beliefs on others? All your arguments seem to be based on the Bible - NEWS FLASH - not everyone follows it (stay tuned for more at 11).
“I do however think it is a sin and is a deviant action.”
Grats, you think you can think. Let’s try independent thought now. Why is it a sin? Because some magic space genie told you so via the Bible?[/quote]
Because the Bible says it as well as the Ancient Jewish and Christian fathers back it up.
[quote]eigieinhamr wrote:
Brother Chris, you surely commit sins every day in your life. What makes theirs worse?[/quote]
Never said it does, you assumed I thought it was different. But I do not try to advocate and say my sins should afford me rites and programs because I commit them. I also acknowledge my sins and know the difference between committing sins and asking forgiveness, and saying it is not sin and demanding everyone change because I commit them.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
eigieinhamr wrote:
Brother Chris, you surely commit sins every day in your life. What makes theirs worse?
Never said it does, you assumed I thought it was different. But I do not try to advocate and say my sins should afford me rites and programs because I commit them. I also acknowledge my sins and know the difference between committing sins and asking forgiveness, and saying it is not sin and demanding everyone change because I commit them.[/quote]
They aren’t asking you to change. They are asking not to be discriminated against.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Homosexuality was practiced “widely enough” as part of a larger menu of undisciplined decadent behavior by the detached elites, and thus drew the criticism of the larger society.[/quote]
Again, you can’t have it both ways. If homosexuality was considered a significant factor in the so-called decadence and ultimate demise of Greek civilization, then it must have been practiced to an extent commensurate with that impact.
Why would the acceptance of gays in other societies in any way “correct” Bible-thumpers? If anything, it would confirm their self-proclaimed superiority, because they believe Christian principles are necessary for true societal enlightenment and progress.
One day you will grow up and learn that ad hominem attacks on a person’s motivations or character do not contribute to the validity of your claims.
[quote]eigieinhamr wrote:
They aren’t asking you to change. They are asking not to be discriminated against.[/quote]
Exactly. I don’t get how people who consider being gay a “sin” feel that they have the right to enforce their beliefs on others through civil laws. Yet the moment you address this discrimination, they get all huffy about forcing them to change their religious beliefs. As if their beliefs have to be reflected in civil laws in order to be valid.
Believe whatever you want, just keep it to your synagogue and out of the courtroom. There is a reason our constitution requires separation of church from state.
They aren’t asking you to change. They are asking not to be discriminated against.[/quote]
So, the only thing you consider change is if I personally change my behavior, well, I call that a little ignorant. When someone tries to change my state legislation in order to allow gay marriage, I consider that trying to change me. It is my environment so it very well affects me, even if a minute amount.
I am not discriminating against them at all, show me how they are discriminated against. And especially show how I discriminate against them.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Well, your first example if you do not remember was taken down, for their lawlessness.
The point was that Sodom and Gomorrah is frequently pointed to by bible thumpers as a gay-embracing society.[/quote]
Yes, I have heard of it of that, but it was more sinister than just being gay-embracing society. Most nations have some lawlessness (mosaic), that you cannot stop because no one is perfect. However, the above examples did these things not only on purpose, but they did magnitudes more.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
When someone tries to change my state legislation in order to allow gay marriage, I consider that trying to change me. It is my environment so it very well affects me, even if a minute amount.[/quote]
Why do you feel justified in enshrining your religious beliefs in state legislation in the first place? Don’t you believe in separation of church and state? Or does that only matter when the religion is something other than your own?
I wonder how you would feel if Muslims tried to legislate some of their religious beliefs in a way that directly and significantly impacted your life?
You’re telling me that being gay is a sin. That’s fine, believe whatever you want. I really don’t care what you think. What I do care about is when you deny me the right to visit my partner in the hospital when he is sick, to have social security benefits if he died, etc. That impacts me far, far more than the “minute amount” that you are supposedly impacted by granting equal rights to gays.
They aren’t asking you to change. They are asking not to be discriminated against.
So, the only thing you consider change is if I personally change my behavior, well, I call that a little ignorant. When someone tries to change my state legislation in order to allow gay marriage, I consider that trying to change me. It is my environment so it very well affects me, even if a minute amount.
I am not discriminating against them at all, show me how they are discriminated against. And especially show how I discriminate against them.[/quote]
A change in the laws of your state - a change that doesn’t affect your taxes or job or whatever in the slightest - is trying to “change you?” Couldn’t you use the same reasoning to oppose any legislation whatsoever?
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
forlife wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Well, your first example if you do not remember was taken down, for their lawlessness.
The point was that Sodom and Gomorrah is frequently pointed to by bible thumpers as a gay-embracing society.
…and everyone must remember that it’s okay to call christians “bible thumpers” as a derogatory remark…but not so good to call homosexual’s fags, or queers. There’s a double standard and it must be maintained.[/quote]
You don’t have to be a Christian to thump a bible.
Similarly, you don’t have to be a homosexual to be queer.
When you want to argue that something ought to be done in a democracy, you need to use justifications that will be meaningful to all reasonable people. For example, you could argue, like some people on this thread, that homosexuality causes disease and depression, and so is a public health threat. That’s untrue, but at least if it were true it would matter to all of us – everybody wants to prevent public health threats.
But appeals to religious truth simply don’t matter to everyone. There are atheists. There are non-Christian religions. There are Christians who don’t interpret the Bible as you do. Even if you’re quite right that homosexuality is a sin in your faith, still for many people that fact is absolutely inconsequential. You’re making the kind of argument that cannot possibly convince anybody not already in your camp.
once again please excuse any poor spelling english is not my first language. Any healthy strong society wants their citicens to produce offspring. Just for dominance reasons. It is a fact that homosexuals exist and existed in every culture - and I dont care if it is genetic, choice or whatever and I don’t have anything against these people. But the praise of homoesexuality is a sign of decline, because it is sex for sex sake with no value for the society. And btw having sex with 10 women and get all the babys aborted is the same thing. Sex for sex sake.
Right now the celebration of the gay lifestyle is just a sign of decadence. And I could not care less if somebody f*cks a male, a monkey, his suitcase or whatever - but there is no worth to that except personal pleasure. I would like to see a society that favours a family (in whatever form) producing offspring, but tolareting any other form of sexuality without advertising it-