[quote]SmallToBig wrote:
[…]
References for further study:
Whitehead, NE; Whitehead,BK (1999): My Genes Made Me Do It! Huntington House, Layfayette, Louisiana. See also www.mygenes.co.nz.
Bailey, JM; Pillard,RC (1991): A genetic study of male sexual orientation. Arch. Gen. Psychiatry 48, 1089-1096.
Bailey, JM; Pillard,RC; Neale,MC; Agyei,Y (1993): Heritable factors influence sexual orientation in women. Arch. Gen. Psychiatry 50, 217-223.
Hershberger, SL (1997): A twin registry study of male and female sexual orientation. J. of Sex Research 34, 212-222.
Bailey, JM; Dunne,MP; Martin,NG (2000): Genetic and Environmental influences on sexual orientation and its correlates in an Australian twin sample. J. Pers. Social Psychology 78, 524-536.
West, DJ (1977): Homosexuality Reexamined. 4th ed. Duckworth, London.
Bailey, NM; Pillard,RC (1995): Genetics of human sexual orientation. Ann. Rev. Sex Research 6, 126-150.
Kendler, KS; Prescott,CA (1998): Cocaine use, abuse and dependence in a population-based sample of female twins. Brit. J. Psychiatry 173, 345-350.
Rhee, SH; Waldman,ID; Hay,DA; Levy,F (1999): Sex differences in genetic and environmental influences on DSM-III-R attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder. J. Abnorm. Psychology 108, 24-41.
Green, R (1987). The “Sissy Boy Syndrome” and the Development of Homosexuality. Yale University Press, New Haven, Connecticut.
Bell, AP; Weinberg,MS; Hammersmith,SK (1981): Sexual Preference: Its Development In Men and Women. Indiana University Press, Bloomington, Indiana.[/quote]
As a scientist in your own right, I would expect a list (created by yourself perhaps) or at least a list from a recognised institution with a scientific reputation - not a pressure group. As a geneticist, I would also expect your newest source not to be only from 2000 - given the advances in this field in the last decade.
Any chance you could explain why you chose to lift this - or get more detailed with regards to the validity of the source? Or a bit of a literature review covering the last decade as well?
[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
For example, you didn’t explain how EVEN ONE person can drop their same sex attraction and remain happily married to someone of the opposite sex if homosexuality was genetic.
Asked and answered many times.[/quote]
I’m sorry I should have said CORRECT answers.
Only one problem with your scenarior, these men were interviewed and they claim total happiness. I know, I know, your next post: “LIARS”.
Of course forlife, anyone who contradicts your own personal experience must be lying.
I know you’re not that dense, in fact you’re not dense at all. Your problem is that you have an impossible mission, a position which cannot be defended.
No one said bisexuals didn’t exist. But are bisexuals that way because of genetics? There’s no proof of this. Or, are they that way because they are simply the horniest people alive? I opt for the second scenario.
[quote]3) As noted earlier from the Wikipedia on reparative therapy:
In 2001, Dr. Ariel Shidlo and Dr. Michael Schroeder found that 88% of participants in reparative therapy failed to achieve a sustained change in their sexual behavior and 3% reported changing their orientation to heterosexual. The remainder reported either losing all sexual drive or struggling to remain celibate. Schroeder said many of the participants who failed felt a sense of shame. Many had gone through reparative therapy programs over the course of many years. Of the 8 respondents (out of a sample of 202) who reported a change in sexual orientation, 7 were employed in paid or unpaid roles as ‘ex-gay’ counsellors or group leaders, something which has led many to question whether even this small ‘success’ rate is in fact reliable.
Schroeder and Shidlo found that the large majority of respondents reported being left in a poor mental and emotional state after the therapy, and that rates of depression, anxiety, alcohol and drug abuse and suicidal feelings were roughly doubled in those who underwent reparative therapy.[/quote]
Yes wikeipedia (eye roll) very nice.
If it were impossible for a man to drop a same sex attraction then NO ONE would be able to do it. However, many, many of them have been able to do it. And several studies have clearly shown that this is the case.
AGAIN…are all of these former homosexuals lying?
If something were impossible then it could not be done. And if something were genetic then it could not be changed either.
Finally, IF someone is NOT happy with a same sex attraction why shouldn’t they have the opportunity to seek therapy and attempt to change? Why do the politically correct want to prohibit this option for those who are not satisified with their homosexuality?
Acosta, F., (1975) Etiology and treatment of homosexuality: review. Archives of Sexual Behavior. 4:9-29.
â??â?¦better prospects for intervention in homosexual life and in its prevention through the early identification and treatment of the potential homosexual child.â?? (p. 9)
Aries, P. and A. Bejin, ed., Male Homosexuality in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, 40-61, cited by Joseph Nicolosi in Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality. Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson Inc., 1991), 124-125.
Bieber, I., et al. (1962) Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study of Male Homosexuals. NY: Basic Books.
â??The therapeutic results of our study provide reason for an optimistic outlook. Many homosexuals became exclusively heterosexual in psychoanalytic treatment. Although this change may be more easily accomplished by some than by others, in our judgment a heterosexual shift is a possibility for all homosexuals who are strongly motivated to change.â?? (p. 319)
Bieber, I., Bieber, T. (1979) Male homosexuality. Canadian Journal of Psychiatry. 24, 5:409-421.
â??We have followed some patients for as long as 20 years who have remained exclusively heterosexual. Reversal estimates now range from 30% to an optimistic 50%.â?? (p.416)
Cappon, D., (1965) Toward an Understanding of Homosexuality. Englewoord Cliffs NJ: Prentice-Hall.
Of patients with bisexual problems 90% were cured (i.e., no reversions to homosexual behavior, no consciousness of homosexual desire and fantasy) in males who terminated treatment by common consent. Male homosexual patients: 80% showed marked improvement (i.e., occasional relapses, release of aggression, increasingly dominant heterosexuality)â?¦ 50% changed.â?? (p. 265-268)
Clippinger, J., (1974) Homosexuality can be cured. Corrective and Social Psychiatry and Journal of Behavior Technology Methods and Therapy. 21, 2:15-28.
â??Of 785 patients treated, 307, or approximately 38%, were cured. Adding the percentage figures of the two other studies, we can say that at least 40% of the homosexuals were cured, and an additional 10 to 30% of the homosexuals were improved, depending on the particular study for which statistics were available.â?? (p. 22)
Fine, R., (1987) Psychoanalytic theory. (in Diamant L. Male and Female Homosexuality: Psychological Approaches. Washington: Hemisphere Publishing.) 81-95.
â??â?¦a considerable percentage of overt homosexuals became heterosexualâ?¦ If patients were motivated, whatever procedure is adopted a large percentage will give up their homosexualityâ?¦ The misinformation that homosexuality is untreatable by psychotherapy does incalculable harm to thousands of men and womenâ?¦â?? (p. 85-86)
Fitzgibbons, R., (1999) The origins and therapy of same-sex attraction disorder. (in Wolfe, C. Homosexuality and American Public Life. Spence) 85-97.
"The second most common cause of SSAD [same sex attraction disorder] among males is mistrust of womenâ??s loveâ?¦ Male children in fatherless homes often feel overly responsible for their mothers. As they enter their adolescence, they may come to view female love as draining and exhausting.â?? (p. 89)
â??Experience has taught me that healing is a difficult process, but through the mutual efforts of the therapist and the patient, serious emotional wounds can be healed over a period of time.â?? (p. 96)
Goetze, R. (1997) Homosexuality and the Possibility of Change: A Review of 17 Published Studies. Toronto Canada: New Directions for Life.
44 persons who were exclusively or predominantly homosexual experienced a full shift of sexual orientation.
Hatterer, L., (1970) Changing Homosexuality in the Male. NY: McGraw-Hill.
49 patients changed (20 married, of these 10 remained married, 2 divorced, 18 achieved heterosexual adjustments); 18 partially recovered, remained single; 76 remained homosexual (28 palliated â?? 58 unchanged) â??A large undisclosed population has melted into heterosexual society, persons who behaved homosexually in late adolescence and early adulthood, and who, on their own, resolved their conflicts and abandoned such behavior to go on to successful marriages or to bisexual patterns of adoption.â?? (p. 14)
James, Elizabeth (1978) Treatment of Homosexuality: A Reanalysis and Synthesis of Outcome Studies (unpublished PhD dissertation, Brigham Young University, on file with Brigham Young University Library).
Elizabeth James meta-analyzed over 100 outcome studies published between 1930 and 1976, and concluded that when all the research was combines, 35% of homosexual clients “recovered” and 27% improved.
Kaye, H., Beri, S., Clare, J., Eleston, M., Gershwin, B., Gershwin, P., Kogan, L., Torda, C., Wilber, C. (1967) Homosexuality in Women. Archives of General Psychiatry. 17:626-634.
â??â?¦optimism in the psychoanalytic treatment of homosexual women. â?¦at least a 50% probability of significant improvement in women with this syndrome who present themselves for treatment and remain in it.â?? (p. 634)
Kronemeyer, R. (1980) Overcoming Homosexuality. NY: Macmillian
â??For those homosexuals who are unhappy with their life and find effective therapy it is â??curableâ??.â?? (p.7)
MacIntosh, H. (1994) Attitudes and experiences of psychoanalysts. Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association. 42, 4: 1183-1207.
824 male patients of 213 analysts â?? 197 (23.9%) changed to heterosexuality, 703 received significant therapeutic benefit; and of the 391 female patients of 153 analysts â?? 79 (20.2%) changed to heterosexuality, 318 received significant therapeutic benefit. (p. 1183)
MacIntosh, H. (1995) Attitudes and Experiences of Psychoanalysts in Analyzing Homosexual Patients. Journal of the American Psychiatric Association 1183.
422 psychiatrists were asked if they had successfully treated homosexuals, and did they agree that a homosexual can be changed to heterosexual. Of the 285 responses, which involved 1,215 homosexuals, the survey stated that 23% changed to heterosexuality. 84% benefited significantly by reducing their attraction to other members of the same gender, with a decrease in homosexual activity.
Marmor, J. (1975) Homosexuality and Sexual Orientation Disturbances. (In Freedman, A., Kaplan, H., Sadock, B. Comprehensive Textbook of Psychiatry: II, Second Edition. Baltimore MD: Williams & Wilkins)
â??This conviction of untreatability also serves an ego-defensive purpose for many homosexuals. â?¦however, there has evolved a greater therapeutic optimism about the possibilities for changeâ?¦ There is little doubt that a genuine shift in preferential sex object choice can and does take place in somewhere between 20 and 50 per cent of patients with homosexual behavior who seek psychotherapy with this end in mind.â?? (p. 1519)
Newman, L., (1976) Treatment for the parents of feminine boys. American Journal of Psychiatry. 133, 6: 683-687.
â??Experiences of being ostracized and ridiculed may play a more important role than has been recognized in the total abandonment of the male role at a later time.â?? (p. 687)
And just for you forlife one mans story:
As David writes:
“My therapeutic work wasn’t about switching the gender of my sexual preference. It was about escaping the problems underlying them - anxiety, shame and fear… I worked with (my therapist) for two years, focusing on building relationships with other men, getting past my incapacitating shame, and developing a strong masculine identity. The ‘great divide’ in my life between me and other men began to close… And yes, my sexual orientation changed too.”
Gay activists have lambasted and politicized reparative or sexual re-orientation therapy and persuaded the major therapeutic professional associations, out of political correctness, to vilify and condemn it. Deliberate mis-characterizations of reparative therapy abound.
But those of us who went through reparative therapy found it to be a deeply healing experience. It helped bring us out of shame. It helped us release anger. It helped us heal lifelong hurts and emotional wounds. It taught us how to “repair” childhood yearnings for male affirmation and acceptance by fulfilling them, often with new heterosexual male friends and mentor-father figures, instead of repressing them. Instead of focusing on our sexual orientation, reparative therapy focused on healing with other men (especially our fathers and peers) and with ourselves as men.
As the client, we directed the therapy. We were never coerced. We were never shamed. (And we certainly never received electric shocks, as some claim!) And because good reparative therapists act more as a compassionate mentor than an aloof, disinterested professional, we began to learn to trust men and overcome our defensive detachment from them, sometimes for the first time in our lives.
Almost as a byproduct of our inner work and our relationship work with men, our sexual desire for men began to subside. The stronger we felt in our own masculine, the less desire for men and the more interest in women we began to feel.
One successful client writes of his experience:
“With my eyes closed and the music playing softly, I heard the strong, deep voice of my trusted therapist affirming, ‘You are a man. You are strong. You have broken the power that once tied you to your mother’s identity. You have proven yourself as a man among men. You are whole. Not perfect, but you’re okay not being perfect. You are whole.’ " Tears rolled down my face. I believed him! It was true, and I finally knew it. I was whole! I no longer desired men sexually. I was one of them, not their opposite. I didn’t need a man to complete me. Yet the irony is, I felt more bonded and connected to men and manhood than I had all of my life. THIS is what I had been seeking all those years from all those men. THIS is what I had really wanted all along – this REAL connection, not the fantasy one. Connection to men. Connection to my own manhood. A real connection to God. Wholeness within myself. I felt my heart almost burst out of my chest with joy.”
So what could be so wrong with such healing reparative therapy? Only that it is political incorrect in today’s society for someone who experiences homosexual urges to not want to be gay.
But we are not talking about politics. We are talking about our very lives, and our freedom to heal. “Going straight” is not a hate crime. For us, it is an affirmation of our true identity as men."
[quote]ZEB wrote:
quidnunc wrote:
For those of you just tuning in:
Number of relevant peer reviewed studies linked by the decent people in this thread: roughly 50
Number linked by the bigots: 0.
Good for you junior you didn’t let me down. I just PM’d someone and said the next post from quidnunc will be an insult. You have no more ideas so you resort to name calling. It was an easy call in your case.
Good job kid!
Oh and still no admission about the ridiculous statement that I caught you on. Again it takes two things you don’t have: Character and maturity. (It was worth repeating)
[/quote]
The reason I resort to insults is that you have never once offered a rebuttal to any of the many arguments made against you. If you are unwilling or incapable of engaging in serious debate, there’s not much else for me to do but mock your bigotry (and the generally positive response from the people here who aren’t already vicious homophobes has been encouraging).
In response to your incessant harping about your alleged “point”, let me try to show you, for your own good, what exactly you are doing and why it doesn’t do you any good. Here’s an analogy:
Let’s say we were debating something and you, speaking quickly, said that the population of the United States was 300 billion. Now, obviously, this is false, but equally obviously, you meant to say 300 million, which is true. What could my response be? If I were feeling polite, I’d simply ignore your error, trusting that everyone understood what you actually meant. If I were feeling malicious, I’d crack a joke at your expense and then get on with the substance of my argument.
But what if I did neither of these, and instead in total seriousness made this insignificant error the linchpin of everything I said? What if I treated your mistake as the marker of some fundamental flaw in your character, and I ignored everything else you said in order to go on and on about this for as long as possible? Well, if I continued to do this despite the incredulous stares of the audience, I’d succeed in nothing except making a colossal fool of myself.
And that’s exactly what you’re doing here. You’re taking a silly misinterpretation of something I said and babbling on about it instead of dealing like an adult with the substance of my argument. I will repeat it one more time, in the forlorn hope that I get an answer: Do you accept the overwhelming scientific consensus that homosexuality is innate and immutable? If you don’t, what credible evidence - unsourced anecdotes and rhetorical questions are not sufficient evidence for challenging a tremendous body of peer-reviewed evidence - do you offer against this consensus? If you do, does it not follow that homosexuality is morally neutral, and thus deserving of the same protection given to racial minorities?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
How do you explain reparative therapy working for some people? If it were genetic it could NOT work. Does a black man have the ability to change the color of his skin?
[quote]makkun wrote:
As a scientist in your own right, I would expect a list (created by yourself perhaps) or at least a list from a recognised institution with a scientific reputation - not a pressure group. As a geneticist, I would also expect your newest source not to be only from 2000 - given the advances in this field in the last decade.
Any chance you could explain why you chose to lift this - or get more detailed with regards to the validity of the source? Or a bit of a literature review covering the last decade as well?
Makkun[/quote]
I just put in the document i was looking for that was the 1st link that enabled me to post it.
Sorry for not taking time to review their website, though i was only here to make sure no-one was saying what was wrong.
I have no further interest in this topic, as it has nothing to do with science, just people arguing what seems in circles.
Trying to change someones mind is impossible when one is this entrenched, so why waste my time putting up my own sources
[b]If someone is NOT happy with a same sex attraction why shouldn’t they have the opportunity to seek therapy and attempt to change? Why do the politically correct want to prohibit this option for those who are not satisified with their homosexuality?
I agree and always thought the Gay movement is doing alot of harm to the people they are trying to help. They eliminate the possibility to get help for those that want it. Very sad and wrong. But hey, some groups like to live in denial.
[quote]Gregus wrote:
[b]If someone is NOT happy with a same sex attraction why shouldn’t they have the opportunity to seek therapy and attempt to change? Why do the politically correct want to prohibit this option for those who are not satisified with their homosexuality?
I agree and always thought the Gay movement is doing alot of harm to the people they are trying to help. They eliminate the possibility to get help for those that want it. Very sad and wrong. But hey, some groups like to live in denial. [/quote]
If people are bound and determined to repress their sexual orientation due to religious beliefs, etc. then what can you do? I was there myself for many years. When I first went to therapy as a young college student with the intent of “changing” my orientation, my therapist’s hands were tied. I refused to even consider the possibility of embracing who I was, because I believed homosexuality would send me to hell.
However, none of that changes the facts. Gays who try to change their sexual orientation through therapy are TWICE as likely to have suicidal thoughts, drug/alcohol abuse, anxiety, and depression following the therapy. Does that not mean anything to you?
However, none of that changes the facts. Gays who try to change their sexual orientation through therapy are TWICE as likely to have suicidal thoughts, drug/alcohol abuse, anxiety, and depression following the therapy. Does that not mean anything to you?[/quote]
I’m sorry i just keep being drawn back here lol.
Where on God’s name did you get that information ? So by trying to become “normal” (by society standards) they are twice as likely to kill themselves or turn to various forms of abuse ?
Now come on, is this stat limited to one country… one continent… that’s a bit of a sweeping statement is it not ?
Say by any off chance, some guy is reading this and now thinks he is doomed as if he tries to seek therapy it’s going to get worse anyway…is that not just as likely to initiate the same thoughts in someones head as seeking therapy ?
(I apologies for just using “he” if there is any females reading this, just that “he’s” are the predominant posters"
It’s obvious you’re not even reading this thread, since I’ve posted relevant references several times now. To address your question:
[b]In 2001, Dr. Ariel Shidlo and Dr. Michael Schroeder found that 88% of participants in reparative therapy failed to achieve a sustained change in their sexual behavior and 3% reported changing their orientation to heterosexual. The remainder reported either losing all sexual drive or struggling to remain celibate. Schroeder said many of the participants who failed felt a sense of shame. Many had gone through reparative therapy programs over the course of many years. Of the 8 respondents (out of a sample of 202) who reported a change in sexual orientation, 7 were employed in paid or unpaid roles as ‘ex-gay’ counsellors or group leaders, something which has led many to question whether even this small ‘success’ rate is in fact reliable.
Schroeder and Shidlo found that the large majority of respondents reported being left in a poor mental and emotional state after the therapy, and that rates of depression, anxiety, alcohol and drug abuse and suicidal feelings were roughly doubled in those who underwent reparative therapy.[/b]
[quote]forlife wrote:
It’s obvious you’re not even reading this thread, since I’ve posted relevant references several times now. To address your question:
[b]In 2001, Dr. Ariel Shidlo and Dr. Michael Schroeder found that 88% of participants in reparative therapy failed to achieve a sustained change in their sexual behavior and 3% reported changing their orientation to heterosexual. The remainder reported either losing all sexual drive or struggling to remain celibate. Schroeder said many of the participants who failed felt a sense of shame. Many had gone through reparative therapy programs over the course of many years. Of the 8 respondents (out of a sample of 202) who reported a change in sexual orientation, 7 were employed in paid or unpaid roles as ‘ex-gay’ counsellors or group leaders, something which has led many to question whether even this small ‘success’ rate is in fact reliable.
Schroeder and Shidlo found that the large majority of respondents reported being left in a poor mental and emotional state after the therapy, and that rates of depression, anxiety, alcohol and drug abuse and suicidal feelings were roughly doubled in those who underwent reparative therapy.[/b][/quote]
In all fairness, if you went to Page 1 or 2, i doubt you would read the entire thing either.
I read the article pertaining to the above quote, to be honest i do not know personally any homosexual/lesbian people, not that i have anything against them, just none of them hang around with me or any of my friends, so this debate is interesting to me.
So excuse me if i sometimes appear ignorant, it is not intentional just trying to wade through all the crap and actually find the facts.
SO in that spirit may i ask a few questions:
Who is it exactly that classes Homosexuality as a Mental Disorder ?
Why is it so bad for someone to try become “normal” per society standards, why are organizations trying to stop the practice of reparitive therapy ? Does not everyone have a choice on what they can do for themselves ?
Can you define for me “Homosexuality” as it means to you
Is it:
A) A person who has sex with others of the same gender - thus acting on his/her feelings.
or
B) A person who is sexually attracted only to members of the same gender – whether these feelings are acted upon or not.
In that study he only questioned 200 people, that’s hardly good enough to dismiss an entire line of therapy. Do you think that it is fair to dismiss it just because you took the most extreme views, here are his other findings:
So it turns out, it does in fact work in some people, is that not good enough to continue this line of therapy… why are you so against it ?
[quote]SmallToBig wrote:
So excuse me if i sometimes appear ignorant, it is not intentional just trying to wade through all the crap and actually find the facts.[/quote]
That’s cool, I don’t mind discussing with people that have a genuinely open mind, and are willing to consider the objective evidence, rather than mining sites like Narth with an explicit anti-gay agenda.
None of the major mental health or medical organizations consider homosexuality to be a mental disorder, based on the past 40 years of research comparing gay populations on measures of psychological health.
Of course everyone has a choice. Like I said, due to my religious beliefs, I tried valiantly for 25 years to change my orientation, including going through therapy and countless prayers. All of that repression came at a significant cost, not only to myself but to my wife and children. If you knew that the risk of suicidal thoughts, anxiety/depression, and alcohol/drug abuse would be DOUBLED by trying to change your orientation, wouldn’t you want to take that into account?
[quote]3) Can you define for me “Homosexuality” as it means to you
Is it:
A) A person who has sex with others of the same gender - thus acting on his/her feelings.
or
B) A person who is sexually attracted only to members of the same gender – whether these feelings are acted upon or not.[/quote]
B. Sexual orientation is about who you find attractive. Due to religious/cultural pressures, your behavior may or may not be consistent with your sexual orientation.
Haven’t you ever done research as a geneticist? I’ve done numerous studies, and 200 is generally considered a reasonable n for drawing statistically valid conclusions.
Additionally, this is only one study among a slew of studies that have been conducted over the past 40 years. Some of those studies have been more scientifically rigorous than others. The major medical and mental health organizations have reviewed this body of research, separated the wheat from the chaff, and drawn conclusions on homosexuality based on the research that actually met scientific muster.
If you want a more honest and comprehensive review of Spitzer’s work, go here:
As noted, Spitzer has been blatantly misquoted and misrepresented by the religous right to suit their anti-gay agenda. From Spitzer himself:
“Our sample was self-selected from people who already claimed they had made some change. We don’t know how common that kind of change is. . . . I’m not saying that this can be easily done, or that most homosexuals who want to change can make this kind of change. I suspect it’s quite unusual.”
“I suspect the vast majority of gay people would be unable to alter by much a firmly established homosexual orientation.”
"…the kinds of changes my subjects reported are highly unlikely to be available to the vast majority [of gays and lesbians]… “[only] a small minority – perhaps 3% – might have a “malleable” sexual orientation.” Spitzer expressed a concern that his study results were being “twisted by the Christian right.”
Spitzer told the Washington Post in 2005 that supporters of reparative therapy have misrepresented the results of his study. He said:
“It bothers me to be their knight in shining armor because on every social issue I totally disagree with the Christian right…What they don’t mention is that change is pretty rare.”
He noted that the subjects of his study were not representative of the general population because they were considerably more religious. He calls as “totally absurd” the beliefs that everyone is born straight and that homosexuality is a choice.
Are you typing all of this on Mommy’s computer in the basement during summer break? I read your bio you’re a 21 year old 155 pound kid who knows nothing about life or much else for that matter.
Here’s a suggestion for you, drink a big bottle of SHUT THE FUCK UP.
[/quote]
It’s interesting, in an anthropological sense, to talk to people like you. No one I know is a homophobe, or at least no one would ever admit to it. We’ve moved past that barbarity. But while decency is on the rise everywhere - “The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice” - it’s obviously not at the same levels in all places. So bigots like you still exist, declining steadily in number, but as loud and vile as ever.
So I’m almost lucky to be able to talk to a relic of a dying culture like you. My grandchildren will probably regard homophobes with the sort of uncomprehending disbelief I feel toward Klansmen or Nazis - how could anyone ever have been like that? It’s worth understanding how people in certain societies can be twisted by hatred and ignorance, if only to prevent it from happening again.
Are you typing all of this on Mommy’s computer in the basement during summer break? I read your bio you’re a 21 year old 155 pound kid who knows nothing about life or much else for that matter.
Here’s a suggestion for you, drink a big bottle of SHUT THE FUCK UP.
It’s interesting, in an anthropological sense, to talk to people like you. No one I know is a homophobe, or at least no one would ever admit to it. We’ve moved past that barbarity. But while decency is on the rise everywhere - “The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice” - it’s obviously not at the same levels in all places. So bigots like you still exist, declining steadily in number, but as loud and vile as ever.
So I’m almost lucky to be able to talk to a relic of a dying culture like you. My grandchildren will probably regard homophobes with the sort of uncomprehending disbelief I feel toward Klansmen or Nazis - how could anyone ever have been like that? It’s worth understanding how people in certain societies can be twisted by hatred and ignorance, if only to prevent it from happening again.
Do you feel all warm and fuzzy now…good I hope so. Kids should feel good about themselves but you go a little too far, you think you’re something extra special don’t you?. Mommy and daddy really filled your head up before they wrote that last check to PC University.
It’s nice being supported by mommy and daddy isn’t it? They rub your head and tell you what a smart little boy you are…
Oh…that’s so nice.
But you see punk here in the real world I don’t give a fuck how many sentences you try to string together to feel good about yourself. You still sound like the 150 pound 21 year old little boy that you are.
Was that harsh? Yea…reality tends to be that way…
When you get out in the real world and actually support yourself I might just pay you a little respect and engage you in this…or any other…debate.
Until then just keep chugging that great big glass of SHUT THE FUCK UP I gave you a while ago.
[/quote]
Admit it. You’re a drama student doing a Method portrayal of the Loud Ignorant Lower Class White Male. It’s not bad, but you need to add in a few human qualities to be really believable. No one is that sick in real life.
Are you typing all of this on Mommy’s computer in the basement during summer break? I read your bio you’re a 21 year old 155 pound kid who knows nothing about life or much else for that matter.
Here’s a suggestion for you, drink a big bottle of SHUT THE FUCK UP.
It’s interesting, in an anthropological sense, to talk to people like you. No one I know is a homophobe, or at least no one would ever admit to it. We’ve moved past that barbarity. But while decency is on the rise everywhere - “The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice” - it’s obviously not at the same levels in all places. So bigots like you still exist, declining steadily in number, but as loud and vile as ever.
So I’m almost lucky to be able to talk to a relic of a dying culture like you. My grandchildren will probably regard homophobes with the sort of uncomprehending disbelief I feel toward Klansmen or Nazis - how could anyone ever have been like that? It’s worth understanding how people in certain societies can be twisted by hatred and ignorance, if only to prevent it from happening again.
Do you feel all warm and fuzzy now…good I hope so. Kids should feel good about themselves but you go a little too far, you think you’re something extra special don’t you?. Mommy and daddy really filled your head up before they wrote that last check to PC University.
It’s nice being supported by mommy and daddy isn’t it? They rub your head and tell you what a smart little boy you are…
Oh…that’s so nice.
But you see punk here in the real world I don’t give a fuck how many sentences you try to string together to feel good about yourself. You still sound like the 150 pound 21 year old little boy that you are.
Was that harsh? Yea…reality tends to be that way…
When you get out in the real world and actually support yourself I might just pay you a little respect and engage you in this…or any other…debate.
Until then just keep chugging that great big glass of SHUT THE FUCK UP I gave you a while ago.
Admit it. You’re a drama student doing a Method portrayal of the Loud Ignorant Lower Class White Male. It’s not bad, but you need to add in a few human qualities to be really believable. No one is that sick in real life.
You sound like someone doing an impression of a 21 year old punk who only weighs 150 pounds banging away on a keyboard in your parents basement…but mommy and daddy love you no matter what…Oh wait…that’s not an impression it’s really you.
Keep chugging on that glass of SHUT THE FUCK UP kid.
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They’re so adorable when they start barking like that.
