Thanksgiving, My How Things have Changed:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

I honestly don’t think that’s the only source of your problems. The atheistic Scandanavian countries do pretty well without religion.

[/quote]

Yeah, I saw that. I’m sure that there is a cultural aspect as it relates to religion.
[/quote]

What do you mean?
[/quote]

I don’t know but I’m thinking that if a culture develops with a religious base and then abandons that, with nothing there to replace it (as I’ve said) this is what you get.

[/quote]

Why do you think other western countries were not as religious? Secularisation started in the '60s here in the Netherlands. I’m not sure why you’d single your country out like this when all western nations developed with a religious base.

I just wanna jump in and say this thread has been very intriguing to read, I had never thought about morality as deeply as this is going, so thanks.

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

I honestly don’t think that’s the only source of your problems. The atheistic Scandanavian countries do pretty well without religion.

[/quote]

Yeah, I saw that. I’m sure that there is a cultural aspect as it relates to religion.
[/quote]

What do you mean?
[/quote]

I don’t know but I’m thinking that if a culture develops with a religious base and then abandons that, with nothing there to replace it (as I’ve said) this is what you get.

[/quote]

Why do you think other western countries were not as religious? Secularisation started in the '60s here in the Netherlands. I’m not sure why you’d single your country out like this when all western nations developed with a religious base.
[/quote]

You won’t like my answer so we better not go there. You know…

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Why do you think other western countries were not as religious? Secularisation started in the '60s here in the Netherlands. I’m not sure why you’d single your country out like this when all western nations developed with a religious base.
[/quote]

You won’t like my answer so we better not go there. You know…
[/quote]

You’re better than us? Come on zeb, show some hubris!

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Why do you think other western countries were not as religious? Secularisation started in the '60s here in the Netherlands. I’m not sure why you’d single your country out like this when all western nations developed with a religious base.
[/quote]

You won’t like my answer so we better not go there. You know…
[/quote]

You’re better than us? Come on zeb, show some hubris![/quote]

Well, if you really want to hear it. America was founded as “one nation UNDER GOD…” I could go on but I leave it at that for now.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Why do you think other western countries were not as religious? Secularisation started in the '60s here in the Netherlands. I’m not sure why you’d single your country out like this when all western nations developed with a religious base.
[/quote]

You won’t like my answer so we better not go there. You know…
[/quote]

You’re better than us? Come on zeb, show some hubris![/quote]

Well, if you really want to hear it. America was founded as “one nation UNDER GOD…” I could go on but I leave it at that for now.
[/quote]

Could you point out to me where in the original declaration of independence the christian god was specifically mentioned?

Could you also point out to me where in the original pledge of allegiance god is mentioned?

Thanks.

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Why do you think other western countries were not as religious? Secularisation started in the '60s here in the Netherlands. I’m not sure why you’d single your country out like this when all western nations developed with a religious base.
[/quote]

You won’t like my answer so we better not go there. You know…
[/quote]

You’re better than us? Come on zeb, show some hubris![/quote]

Well, if you really want to hear it. America was founded as “one nation UNDER GOD…” I could go on but I leave it at that for now.
[/quote]

Could you point out to me where in the original declaration of independence the christian god was specifically mentioned?

Could you also point out to me where in the original pledge of allegiance god is mentioned?

Thanks.
[/quote]

I’m not playing that game ephrem the socialist who wrote the pledge left God out, but fortunately we fixed that ;). Also, we both know that the overwhelming majority of signers of the declaration of Independence was a Christian. How many threads have there been on the founders being Christian? Come on you want to fight and lose that war again? Naw, you’re too smart for that.

So now i’m too smart?

It’s nice of you to admit that you’re incapable of proving that the USA is in fact founded as a christian nation, thanks.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
So now i’m too smart?

It’s nice of you to admit that you’re incapable of proving that the USA is in fact founded as a christian nation, thanks.

[/quote]

Oh I’m capable enough. You want to shoot the next several weeks dancing to that tune? You have that kind of time? Don’t get me wrong I’ll do it, but once we get into it, I’m not sure it will end quickly.

The doctrine of providence specifically mentioned in the DOI is a distinctly Christian doctrine, especially under that name.

Once again, the very protestant, very Calvinistic Westminster Confession of Faith of 1646 firmly held by George Whitfield, the most famous preacher of the era and God’s humble servant in the “great awakening”:

[quote]Chapter V
Of Providence

I. God the great Creator of all things does uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will, to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.

II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly; yet, by the same providence, He orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.

III. God, in His ordinary providence, makes use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at His pleasure.

IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding, and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.

V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God does oftentimes leave, for a season, His own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and, to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon Himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.

VI. As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as a righteous Judge, for former sins, does blind and harden, from them He not only withholds His grace whereby they might have been enlightened in their understandings, and wrought upon in their hearts; but sometimes also withdraws the gifts which they had, and exposes them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin;] and, withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan, whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, even under those means which God uses for the softening of others.

VII. As the providence of God does, in general, reach to all creatures; so, after a most special manner, it takes care of His Church, and disposes all things to the good thereof.[/quote]I promise you this is that to which Jefferson, though paying lip service himself, was referring in speaking of a “firm reliance on divine providence”. Why would he do that? Because he knew that the preponderance of the citizenry of that day understood God to be that most exalted and holy being revered in the great reformed confessions that expressed a deep conviction of an utterly almighty and unfailing deity. Ya know… like … providence. Look it’s like this. The USA was never a “Christian nation”, but it was a nation firmly founded on the assumption that the social morality of Christianity would be in place to facilitate self governance under our very liberal (the good way) constitution.

Oh yes it was. All you post modern libertines can crow all you want. I can produce a wall of text from founders of all stripes expressing exactly that. That died in the 60’s and so began in earnest the swirl down the bowl that we are now trapped in. Just exactly as planned. Every radical subversive handbook of any repute lists the promotion of promiscuity and the marginalization of traditional faithful families as primary weapons in bringing down this society. Look it up. Social justice? People are so gullible.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
The doctrine of providence specifically mentioned in the DOI is a distinctly Christian doctrine, especially under that name.

Once again, the very protestant, very Calvinistic Westminster Confession of Faith of 1646 firmly held by George Whitfield, the most famous preacher of the era and God’s humble servant in the “great awakening”:

[quote]Chapter V
Of Providence

I. God the great Creator of all things does uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will, to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.

II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly; yet, by the same providence, He orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.

III. God, in His ordinary providence, makes use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at His pleasure.

IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding, and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.

V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God does oftentimes leave, for a season, His own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and, to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon Himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.

VI. As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as a righteous Judge, for former sins, does blind and harden, from them He not only withholds His grace whereby they might have been enlightened in their understandings, and wrought upon in their hearts; but sometimes also withdraws the gifts which they had, and exposes them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin;] and, withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan, whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, even under those means which God uses for the softening of others.

VII. As the providence of God does, in general, reach to all creatures; so, after a most special manner, it takes care of His Church, and disposes all things to the good thereof.[/quote]I promise you this is that to which Jefferson, though paying lip service himself, was referring in speaking of a “firm reliance of divine providence”. Why would he do that? Because he knew that the preponderance of the citizenry of that day understood God to be that most exalted and holy being revered in the great reformed confessions that expressed a deep conviction of an utterly almighty and unfailing deity. Ya know… like … providence. Look it’s like this. The USA was never a “Christian nation”, but it was a nation firmly founded on the assumption that the social morality of Christianity would be in place to facilitate self governance under our very liberal (the good way) constitution.

Oh yes it was. All you post modern libertines can crow all you want. I can produce a wall of text from founders of all stripes expressing exactly that. That died in the 60’s and so began in earnest the swirl down the bowl that we are now trapped in. Just exactly as planned. Every radical subversive handbook of any repute lists the promotion of promiscuity and the marginalization of traditional faithful families as primary weapons in bringing down this society. Look it up. Social justice? People are so gullible.[/quote]

You are 100% spot on, but you realize what you’re starting here right? I hope you have set aside the appropriate number of man hours when the Godless heathen charge the gate (Did you like that one? —I did, has a nice ring to it).

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I’m not claiming that living conditions were better. However, morally, with few exceptions, it was a utopia compared to today’s low standards. It almost doesn’t matter which statistic that you want to compare.
[/quote]

Really? Just which statistics do you want to compare? Percentage of people who owned slaved? Level of institutional terrorism? Equality among people? Murder rate? Theft rate? Rate of adultery? Number of homosexuals?

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Without a strong moral base it’s obvious to see what is happening not just here in America but around the world. Our moral standards have been driven lower each decade. You can claim that it’s not the fact that more people have turned from God, but then you’d have to tell me why it is as it is. SO…I’m waiting. [/quote]

I don’t need an explanation for why ``our moral standards have been drive lower each decade,‘’ first because I don’t think there’s a linear measure of our moral standards and second because I think along most dimensions our moral standards have increased. (They have drastically increased from, say, 200 years ago.) Today we no longer accept slavery. Today we are better about giving people equal rights. Today there is more freedom of speech. Today we are not in a constant state of war. Is there more sexual promiscuity today? Sure. I don’t think that’s bad. I certainly wouldn’t trade emancipation and Women’s rights for less sexual promiscuity. Is there more theft and violent crime today? I doubt the level is statically significant, if there is.

So, I’ve laid out the metrics against which I judge our society today to be more moral than your golden age of the pilgrims or the Victorian era or the early twentieth century—which ever you prefer. Just which metrics are you using?

[/quote]

we don’t give equal rights, if you think we do then you have just disclosed how your view is distorted. Entitlements, privliges and special interest are not equal rights.

And before at least slaves new they were slaves, not like the blind flock following this nationalist socialist movement.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
The doctrine of providence specifically mentioned in the DOI is a distinctly Christian doctrine, especially under that name.

Once again, the very protestant, very Calvinistic Westminster Confession of Faith of 1646 firmly held by George Whitfield, the most famous preacher of the era and God’s humble servant in the “great awakening”:

[quote]Chapter V
Of Providence

I. God the great Creator of all things does uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will, to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.

II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly; yet, by the same providence, He orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.

III. God, in His ordinary providence, makes use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at His pleasure.

IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding, and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.

V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God does oftentimes leave, for a season, His own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and, to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon Himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.

VI. As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as a righteous Judge, for former sins, does blind and harden, from them He not only withholds His grace whereby they might have been enlightened in their understandings, and wrought upon in their hearts; but sometimes also withdraws the gifts which they had, and exposes them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin;] and, withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan, whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, even under those means which God uses for the softening of others.

VII. As the providence of God does, in general, reach to all creatures; so, after a most special manner, it takes care of His Church, and disposes all things to the good thereof.[/quote]I promise you this is that to which Jefferson, though paying lip service himself, was referring in speaking of a “firm reliance on divine providence”. Why would he do that? Because he knew that the preponderance of the citizenry of that day understood God to be that most exalted and holy being revered in the great reformed confessions that expressed a deep conviction of an utterly almighty and unfailing deity. Ya know… like … providence. Look it’s like this. The USA was never a “Christian nation”, but it was a nation firmly founded on the assumption that the social morality of Christianity would be in place to facilitate self governance under our very liberal (the good way) constitution.

Oh yes it was. All you post modern libertines can crow all you want. I can produce a wall of text from founders of all stripes expressing exactly that. That died in the 60’s and so began in earnest the swirl down the bowl that we are now trapped in. Just exactly as planned. Every radical subversive handbook of any repute lists the promotion of promiscuity and the marginalization of traditional faithful families as primary weapons in bringing down this society. Look it up. Social justice? People are so gullible.[/quote]

an eloquant person who gets it.

But what I find funny is aside from a few progressives here the majority that argue are from progressive european nations. They are trying to tell us about our history as though they had and inside look at it.

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

But what I find funny is aside from a few progressives here the majority that argue are from progressive european nations. They are trying to tell us about our history as though they had and inside look at it. [/quote]

I’ve said that numerous times. If you take out the college boys (who know everything because their professor just told them) and non Americans you’ve reduced the atheist and socialists by a good number. On the other hand it can be fun having many of them around to represent the other side.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

But what I find funny is aside from a few progressives here the majority that argue are from progressive european nations. They are trying to tell us about our history as though they had and inside look at it. [/quote]

I’ve said that numerous times. If you take out the college boys (who know everything because their professor just told them) and non Americans you’ve reduced the atheist and socialists by a good number. On the other hand it can be fun having many of them around to represent the other side. [/quote]

without us euro-trash-socialist-liberal-progressivs there wouldt be any debates only a bunch of guys who patted eachother on the back. Without antagonism, you dont get friction.

It seems that we finally agree`s on something ZEB.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

If you want a good yuck, ask Orion how he learned about the US!

[/quote]

Unfortunately one cannot have “a good yuck” when it comes to Chushin because when people with special needs are failed by the system, it is not really funny.

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

But what I find funny is aside from a few progressives here the majority that argue are from progressive european nations. They are trying to tell us about our history as though they had and inside look at it. [/quote]

I’ve said that numerous times. If you take out the college boys (who know everything because their professor just told them) and non Americans you’ve reduced the atheist and socialists by a good number. On the other hand it can be fun having many of them around to represent the other side. [/quote]

without us euro-trash-socialist-liberal-progressivs there wouldt be any debates only a bunch of guys who patted eachother on the back. Without antagonism, you dont get friction.

It seems that we finally agree`s on something ZEB.[/quote]

Oh i understand good debate, that is fine. It is more when someone who doesn’t live here or have any experience with the system and how it really works, tries to come off as this unsurmountable expert.

You probably have the same issue with some Americans and comments on the situation in your part of the world.

It is one thing to discuss idealogy and philosophy, it is another to tell another entity how to operate, as though you are the expert on their specific situation.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
The doctrine of providence specifically mentioned in the DOI is a distinctly Christian doctrine, especially under that name.

Once again, the very protestant, very Calvinistic Westminster Confession of Faith of 1646 firmly held by George Whitfield, the most famous preacher of the era and God’s humble servant in the “great awakening”:

[quote]Chapter V
Of Providence

I. God the great Creator of all things does uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will, to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.

II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly; yet, by the same providence, He orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.

III. God, in His ordinary providence, makes use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at His pleasure.

IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding, and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.

V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God does oftentimes leave, for a season, His own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and, to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon Himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.

VI. As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as a righteous Judge, for former sins, does blind and harden, from them He not only withholds His grace whereby they might have been enlightened in their understandings, and wrought upon in their hearts; but sometimes also withdraws the gifts which they had, and exposes them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin;] and, withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan, whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, even under those means which God uses for the softening of others.

VII. As the providence of God does, in general, reach to all creatures; so, after a most special manner, it takes care of His Church, and disposes all things to the good thereof.[/quote]I promise you this is that to which Jefferson, though paying lip service himself, was referring in speaking of a “firm reliance on divine providence”. Why would he do that? Because he knew that the preponderance of the citizenry of that day understood God to be that most exalted and holy being revered in the great reformed confessions that expressed a deep conviction of an utterly almighty and unfailing deity. Ya know… like … providence. Look it’s like this. The USA was never a “Christian nation”, but it was a nation firmly founded on the assumption that the social morality of Christianity would be in place to facilitate self governance under our very liberal (the good way) constitution.

Oh yes it was. All you post modern libertines can crow all you want. I can produce a wall of text from founders of all stripes expressing exactly that. That died in the 60’s and so began in earnest the swirl down the bowl that we are now trapped in. Just exactly as planned. Every radical subversive handbook of any repute lists the promotion of promiscuity and the marginalization of traditional faithful families as primary weapons in bringing down this society. Look it up. Social justice? People are so gullible.[/quote]

an eloquant person who gets it.

But what I find funny is aside from a few progressives here the majority that argue are from progressive european nations. They are trying to tell us about our history as though they had and inside look at it. [/quote]

If you want a good yuck, ask Orion how he learned about the US!

[/quote]

The way anyone who doesn’t live here does, through some other source.

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

The way anyone who doesn’t live here does, through some other source.
[/quote]

As far as I know I never commented on the trsffic density in Palo Alto, but on things that are universal due to them being part of human nature.