Agreed. When Ferrari or Porsche can make a car as fast as the 2013 ZR1 Corvette without having to sell it for 350K to make any money, TipsyPiggy can come in here and start the argument over again. Shit, I can buy three ZR1s for the price of one comparable Lamborghini.[/quote]
Fast? How about the ability to break, turn, and accelerate? I’ll put an M3 up against your Corvette any day.
There’s more to driving than 0-60’s and 1/4 miles, scooter. Unless, of course, one is compensating for shortcomings in other areas.
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I’d take that bet. Don’t get me wrong, I love the M3 but a Grand Sport will take it, a Z06 will murder it, and a ZR1 there is just no competition. [/quote]
Corvettes are fast. Probably the Corvette and the Viper are the only American cars that can compete with the Euros.
But being price conscious - the M3 is $55,000 cheaper than the ZR1, and is only 6 seconds quicker around the Top Gear track. Granted, 6 seconds is a lot - but at the cost of 10K per second?
My 550i can do sub-8 0-60’s with three passengers and the trunk full of groceries.
And given DB’s penchant for talking out of his ass, and out of his pay grade - He could have the ZR1, and would put in in the ditch before the second turn.
Shit, I wish I could own those cars. I have driven them. I spent considerable time in a 911 Carrera S and am in total love with it.
When it comes to cars, I am very much an agnostic. I don’t have a favorite, per se, but many favorites. And when it comes to Lexus, I am not impressed. It feels like a fancy jap car. Of course I am not talking about the LFA here as I have not even seen one of those.[/quote]
The Lexus - we had a GS 350. It was one of the quietest cars I’ve ever owned. The interior was solid, and very comfortable - but the doors and frame felt like they were made of beer cans. It was quick - but the FWD pull was always an issue for me. It felt like the car was trying to rip the steering wheel out of your hands accelerating out of a turn. But at $40K, it was by far a better bang for your buck than a Cadillac. At least in my opinion.
The BMW - holy crap. Governs out at 155 or so, and I’ve always had plenty of pedal left when it cut out. Corners like a dream. 0-60 isn’t world class, but with a decent driver and the traction control turned off - it would probably do mid-6’s - low 7’s. But 60-100, this car is a beast.
Is that the flappy panel shifter? Or are you referring to the shifter that gives you the option of forward, reverse, or park? Not a fan of the latter at all, although the we drove an X5 that also allowed to to kick the shifter over and “manually” shift.
Given the amount of power that is being transferred in the newer cars - and given the amount of computer assisted everything that is becoming more and more the standard in European cars - I don;t think the average driver could handle a truly manual tranny.
They may not suck as bad as the used to - but there is still quite a large gap between American and European cars quality wise. The gap is such that I, and a whole lot of people like me, are willing to pay the premium difference for a premium product.
Shit, I wish I could own those cars. I have driven them. I spent considerable time in a 911 Carrera S and am in total love with it.
When it comes to cars, I am very much an agnostic. I don’t have a favorite, per se, but many favorites. And when it comes to Lexus, I am not impressed. It feels like a fancy jap car. Of course I am not talking about the LFA here as I have not even seen one of those.[/quote]
The Lexus - we had a GS 350. It was one of the quietest cars I’ve ever owned. The interior was solid, and very comfortable - but the doors and frame felt like they were made of beer cans. It was quick - but the FWD pull was always an issue for me. It felt like the car was trying to rip the steering wheel out of your hands accelerating out of a turn. But at $40K, it was by far a better bang for your buck than a Cadillac. At least in my opinion.
The BMW - holy crap. Governs out at 155 or so, and I’ve always had plenty of pedal left when it cut out. Corners like a dream. 0-60 isn’t world class, but with a decent driver and the traction control turned off - it would probably do mid-6’s - low 7’s. But 60-100, this car is a beast.
Is that the flappy panel shifter? Or are you referring to the shifter that gives you the option of forward, reverse, or park? Not a fan of the latter at all, although the we drove an X5 that also allowed to to kick the shifter over and “manually” shift.
Given the amount of power that is being transferred in the newer cars - and given the amount of computer assisted everything that is becoming more and more the standard in European cars - I don;t think the average driver could handle a truly manual tranny.
They may not suck as bad as the used to - but there is still quite a large gap between American and European cars quality wise. The gap is such that I, and a whole lot of people like me, are willing to pay the premium difference for a premium product.
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Actually, quality wise, in terms of reliability and breakdowns the American car makes, Ford and GM specifically are better than the Germans. Mercedes in particular had a real bad stretch with quality issues.
I am guessing you mean ‘more refined’ and I agree the German makes are by-in-large more refined than the American makes, but that stuff comes at a price. The Americans can refine to German standards but then they would cost as much as a German car. The bottom line is that when you are in an M3 and you just got beaten by say a BOSS 302, refinement doesn’t much matter. What matters is you got beaten by a car that cost $30,000 less than the one you are driving.
However, the driving experience in an M3 or a Porsche is bar-none one of the best in the world. They are controllable, confidence inspiring and can handle anything you throw at it. So I do love the German makes but I love the American makes too. I just love them for different reasons. You cannot beat the rawness of American muscle. The sound and madness of driving American muscle is very different from the controled perfectly refined chassis of the Germans. But they are different kinds of cars. I don’t want an overly refined muscle car. I want that shit in your pants hold on for dear life feeling of driving such a car. Likewise, I want my M3 to be fast, smooth and controllable at the limit inviting that tactile feedback from a connected chassis where everything is considered in the driving experience.
I like that I can get a 100k Corvette ZR1 and take a Ferrari 599 on a track when the latter should 200k better and it’s not.
Actually, quality wise, in terms of reliability and breakdowns the American car makes, Ford and GM specifically are better than the Germans. Mercedes in particular had a real bad stretch with quality issues.
I am guessing you mean ‘more refined’ and I agree the German makes are by-in-large more refined than the American makes, but that stuff comes at a price. The Americans can refine to German standards but then they would cost as much as a German car. The bottom line is that when you are in an M3 and you just got beaten by say a BOSS 302, refinement doesn’t much matter. What matters is you got beaten by a car that cost $30,000 less than the one you are driving.[/quote]
The term “beaten” has different meanings. Certainly off the line, and for about 1/4 mile, the BOSS 302 is going to be out front. But what happens when it’s time to take a corner?
Don’t get me wrong - I love raw American muscle. Anyone who doesn’t should turn in their man card.
But if you’re starting at point ‘A’, and the first car to point ‘B’ wins, unless the course is a short, straight line - The M3, or my personal favorite, the M5 - is going to be hard to beat.
Total anecdotal proof: My 550i seems to draw the ire of college kids/morons driving Mustangs, Cameros, and Chargers. Now - off the line, they almost always get the jump. Maybe I’m a shitty drag racer - IDK - But when they try to show me up by blowing by me at 85 on the interstate - I can get from 75 to 120 much faster then they can, and they keep getting smaller in my rear-view until I let up on the gas. I’m not gonna lie - I love that feeling.
A corvette ZR1 would likely not be so easy. But the Corvette guys don’t seem to be as eager to show up a BMW as the other guys, and I don’t drive my car looking to show anyone up.
Actually, quality wise, in terms of reliability and breakdowns the American car makes, Ford and GM specifically are better than the Germans. Mercedes in particular had a real bad stretch with quality issues.
I am guessing you mean ‘more refined’ and I agree the German makes are by-in-large more refined than the American makes, but that stuff comes at a price. The Americans can refine to German standards but then they would cost as much as a German car. The bottom line is that when you are in an M3 and you just got beaten by say a BOSS 302, refinement doesn’t much matter. What matters is you got beaten by a car that cost $30,000 less than the one you are driving.[/quote]
The term “beaten” has different meanings. Certainly off the line, and for about 1/4 mile, the BOSS 302 is going to be out front. But what happens when it’s time to take a corner?
Don’t get me wrong - I love raw American muscle. Anyone who doesn’t should turn in their man card.
But if you’re starting at point ‘A’, and the first car to point ‘B’ wins, unless the course is a short, straight line - The M3, or my personal favorite, the M5 - is going to be hard to beat.
Total anecdotal proof: My 550i seems to draw the ire of college kids/morons driving Mustangs, Cameros, and Chargers. Now - off the line, they almost always get the jump. Maybe I’m a shitty drag racer - IDK - But when they try to show me up by blowing by me at 85 on the interstate - I can get from 75 to 120 much faster then they can, and they keep getting smaller in my rear-view until I let up on the gas. I’m not gonna lie - I love that feeling.
A corvette ZR1 would likely not be so easy. But the Corvette guys don’t seem to be as eager to show up a BMW as the other guys, and I don’t drive my car looking to show anyone up.
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I tell you what, the last gen M5’s are going cheap these days. I have seen them regularly in the mid 30’s. Now that would be a major score. I do not know why that car was so maligned in many circles. I really don’t get it. Yeah, it’s a little heavy, but it is a 4 door sedan. But it has a naturally aspirated 500 HP V10. I mean, who the fuck can argue with that? If I could afford a car right now, that would be on my shortlist. For the money, you cannot beat it. If you are looking to trade up, man that would be a score.
I don’t like the black wheels, but still it’s an M5![/quote]
Yeah - I’m not a fan of the black wheels. The risk you run with buying a 5 year-old mid-mileage performance car is going to be maintenance costs after you run out of factory warranty.
Tires are stupid expensive for the amount of miles you get out of them - especially the low-profile run-flats. 1500 - 1800 per set not including mounting and balancing. And you can’t have them rotated except for side to side, which may or may not be allowed on the M series.
But still - $37K to own an M5? I’d get a ticket every time I put the shifter in “drive”.
I don’t like the black wheels, but still it’s an M5![/quote]
Yeah - I’m not a fan of the black wheels. The risk you run with buying a 5 year-old mid-mileage performance car is going to be maintenance costs after you run out of factory warranty.
Tires are stupid expensive for the amount of miles you get out of them - especially the low-profile run-flats. 1500 - 1800 per set not including mounting and balancing. And you can’t have them rotated except for side to side, which may or may not be allowed on the M series.
But still - $37K to own an M5? I’d get a ticket every time I put the shifter in “drive”.
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Hey that, or you could pay $100 k for one of those gay-ass Tesla’s. Think about this, these cars are cheaper than the Tesla battery pack
Well, my stock in Tesla has gone through the roof lately and now Musk is announcing that Tesla plans on partnering up with Google in the near-future to marry their technology and produce an all-electric, driverless car. Just like I said they would and was roundly ridiculed for. God, I love being right.
