Teen Pregnancy Drops as Planned Parenthood Vanishes

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
viability in this case is it’s ability to function outside the womb, I am sorry I thought my point was clear . Still no one has answered my question of what would be wrong with in vitro adoption ?
[/quote]

Function in what way? A 3 day old can do NOTHING on it’s own. It can not survive ALONE. It needs a 3rd party to survive, which as we’ve learned means it’s a parasite and we can kill it.

[quote]
Maybe allowing mothers to sell the adoption of a child would also have some benefit in reducing the amount of abortion. [/quote]

Now you want to sell people? We’ve done that before, there was some backlash.

[quote]
I know it already exists but only for the wealthy [/quote]

Can you provide a link please?[/quote]

I mentioned in past posts to breath and eat . I know there are many other functions to live , I also said Dad or Aunt Susie can feed and change the diaper but the child has to function outside the womb to be viable

I have heard of international adoptions breaking $100,000

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
And based on the link I posted earlier, by week 12 the child’s body functions pretty damn well actually. So at week 20 I would imagine it functions damn well close enough to the same way it will once it is born. Why does being in the womb make it okay to murder, but being out of the womb not okay, Pittttttt?[/quote]

If the child is viable and the mother does not want it . It should be removed and taken care of . I am not in favor of killing any one or thing that does not need to be killed .

I am not in favor of partial birth abortions , if that is what you are getting at .

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

I mentioned in past posts to breath and eat . I know there are many other functions to live , I also said Dad or Aunt Susie can feed and change the diaper but the child has to function outside the womb to be viable [/quote]

I love how you can make up your own definitions to words now…

Up to 23 weeks listed here has a chance to survive. So abortion should be limited to 23 weeks then? Or just before it takes its first breath?

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
viability in this case is it’s ability to function outside the womb, I am sorry I thought my point was clear . Still no one has answered my question of what would be wrong with in vitro adoption ?
[/quote]

Function in what way? A 3 day old can do NOTHING on it’s own. It can not survive ALONE. It needs a 3rd party to survive, which as we’ve learned means it’s a parasite and we can kill it.

[quote]
Maybe allowing mothers to sell the adoption of a child would also have some benefit in reducing the amount of abortion. [/quote]

Now you want to sell people? We’ve done that before, there was some backlash.

These are adoption expenses. No one is “selling” the baby and the mother isn’t getting any money…

Like has been said, babies can function, read are viable, at/before the mid point of a pregnancy.

@ beans , it looks like viability is around 20 weeks

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
And based on the link I posted earlier, by week 12 the child’s body functions pretty damn well actually. So at week 20 I would imagine it functions damn well close enough to the same way it will once it is born. Why does being in the womb make it okay to murder, but being out of the womb not okay, Pittttttt?[/quote]

If the child is viable and the mother does not want it . It should be removed and taken care of . I am not in favor of killing any one or thing that does not need to be killed .

I am not in favor of partial birth abortions , if that is what you are getting at . [/quote]

You are in favor of killing babies, period. Let’s not get that confused. You just think because said baby is at “X” stage of development it doesn’t deserve the same protection as you, your son or daughter did.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
@ beans , it looks like viability is around 20 weeks [/quote]

And… So you think human life is only worth protecting after 20 weeks of development then?

Shit, that is better than the other nonsense you spouted. I’ll take it.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
I cannot come up with an argument that is 100% logical and science based to defend my position [/quote]

There have quite a few secular and logical arguments put forth in this thread and others for opposing abortion.

It seems only those in favor of removing life when they see fit that keep bringing up religion…[/quote]
I brought up religion and I am not in favor of removing life. [/quote]

Fair enough, you are correct.

I should have said “It seems the majority of people bringing up religion are those in favor of vacuuming out babies from the womb.”

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
And based on the link I posted earlier, by week 12 the child’s body functions pretty damn well actually. So at week 20 I would imagine it functions damn well close enough to the same way it will once it is born. Why does being in the womb make it okay to murder, but being out of the womb not okay, Pittttttt?[/quote]

If the child is viable and the mother does not want it . It should be removed and taken care of . I am not in favor of killing any one or thing that does not need to be killed .

I am not in favor of partial birth abortions , if that is what you are getting at . [/quote]

You are in favor of killing babies, period. Let’s not get that confused. You just think because said baby is at “X” stage of development it doesn’t deserve the same protection as you, your son or daughter did. [/quote]

lol

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
And based on the link I posted earlier, by week 12 the child’s body functions pretty damn well actually. So at week 20 I would imagine it functions damn well close enough to the same way it will once it is born. Why does being in the womb make it okay to murder, but being out of the womb not okay, Pittttttt?[/quote]

If the child is viable and the mother does not want it . It should be removed and taken care of . I am not in favor of killing any one or thing that does not need to be killed .

I am not in favor of partial birth abortions , if that is what you are getting at . [/quote]

You are in favor of killing babies, period. Let’s not get that confused. You just think because said baby is at “X” stage of development it doesn’t deserve the same protection as you, your son or daughter did. [/quote]

lol
[/quote]

Again, ignoring tough questions and presenting no rebuttal.

You don’t value human life unless it meets a certain criteria. How you can deny that by trying to post “lol” is beyond me, you’ve said it in plain English in this thread and others.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
No, most living things are symbionts. See my earlier response. Like I said, words have meanings. [/quote]

So is a fetus, see my earlier response and link. [/quote]

Sigh.

A fetus derives vastly more benefit from its mother than the mother derived from the fetus. In a purely symbiotic relationship, the mother would not be able to survive without the fetus. This is clearly not the case.

You mistake my intention: I am not actually trying to imply that because a fetus is by definition a parasitic organism, that it should be devalued or exterminated.

I do, however, make distinctions between what I’d like to be, what “should be”, and what is.

In other words, I call an egg an egg, and no matter how much I’d like it to be a chicken, I see the wisdom of not counting it as one before it’s hatched.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

Most people do not, in fact, fit this definition. Most people have a symbiotic relationship with others. Many partnerships may not be entirely equal, but the essence of symbiosis is “you do something for me, I do something for you”. The essence of parasitism is “you do something for me, I do nothing for you”.

Pregnancy and child-rearing is a voluntary (in the majority of cases) parasite-host relationship,

[/quote]

I think you are playing devil’s advocate here because you blew a hole in this line of reason with your post about your daughter.

Symbiosis - A relationship of mutual benefit or dependence

You’re going to sit here and tell me children give no benefit to the parent with a straight face? The emotional benefit alone…

Come on man. [/quote]

90 percent of my posts on PWI are devil’s advocate exercises. The other ten percent are about guns and personal liberty. If you can’t argue against your own position, then you don’t fully understand it.

An egg provides no immediate benefit to the hen. It in fact robs her of the time she has to spend sitting on it, and makes her more vulnerable to predation while she has to guard her nest or protect her brood. This is not a symbiotic relationship.

Offspring do provide benefit for their parents, but for the first several years (or decades in the case of humans) that benefit is largely immaterial (emotional and spiritual benefits more than contributing to the survival of the family), aside from the obvious (and appropriate to your profession) tax advantages.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
In a purely symbiotic relationship, the mother would not be able to survive without the fetus. This is clearly not the case.

[/quote]

Physically, sure maybe. Emotionally, this doesn’t hold as much water.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
viability in this case is it’s ability to function outside the womb, I am sorry I thought my point was clear . [/quote]

Again, so as long as the doctor slices the child’s head off the moment after birth and before it starts to scream you are okay with that then?

Again, an infant doesn’t “function” much. So you are okay with people shaking their crying infants to death?

Your point isn’t clear at all, and you dodge tough questions over and over. Why?[/quote]

Oh, come on. Don’t exaggerate. In most partial-birth abortions they don’t slice off the head. They suck out the brains.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Sigh.
[/quote]

Please don’t sigh at me, if you feel you are wasting your time, please just ignore me. It is extremely disrespectful.

However, the mother child relationship does not end at birth. It will last as long as both parties are alive and both parties are benefited by this relationship. It can even come to a point where the mother relies as much on the child as the child relied on the mother in the womb.

Thank you for clarifying. There are a number of pro-abortionist in this very thread that have made it clear a fetus is a parasite thus devalued. I will try not to respond with that implication to you again.

[quote]I do, however, make distinctions between what I’d like to be, what “should be”, and what is.

In other words, I call an egg an egg, and no matter how much I’d like it to be a chicken, I see the wisdom of not counting it as one before it’s hatched. [/quote]

A human females eggs are eggs. A man’s sperm, is well sperm. When combined you get a fetus, which is a _________?

If a chicken egg is fertilized and left alone, the majority of the time, you’ll get a_______?

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

Offspring do provide benefit for their parents, but for the first several years (or decades in the case of humans) that benefit is largely immaterial (emotional and spiritual benefits more than contributing to the survival of the family), aside from the obvious (and appropriate to your profession) tax advantages. [/quote]

I take exception to the emotional and spiritual benefits being termed immaterial here. I’ve just seen too much positive come from babies entering into people’s lives to call something that profound and life changing “immaterial”.

I’d also argue that a family with a pregnant female or infant/toddler will likely take more care in ensure its survival than a family of just a coupling of adults… As in the desire to see the child grow up healthily and happy will lead the parents to make choices and partake in activities that positively effect their survival and well being. Mommy might sell her street bike and by a safer care, daddy might not volunteer for the underwater welding job on the oil rig and take the safer job in the factory down the street, etc…

I think you discount the less obvious and less physical benefits children bring to their parents erroneously to favor simple observations like “mom breast feeds the child, so it is a parasite.”

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

Offspring do provide benefit for their parents, but for the first several years (or decades in the case of humans) that benefit is largely immaterial (emotional and spiritual benefits more than contributing to the survival of the family), aside from the obvious (and appropriate to your profession) tax advantages. [/quote]

I take exception to the emotional and spiritual benefits being termed immaterial here. I’ve just seen too much positive come from babies entering into people’s lives to call something that profound and life changing “immaterial”.

I’d also argue that a family with a pregnant female or infant/toddler will likely take more care in ensure its survival than a family of just a coupling of adults… As in the desire to see the child grow up healthily and happy will lead the parents to make choices and partake in activities that positively effect their survival and well being. Mommy might sell her street bike and by a safer care, daddy might not volunteer for the underwater welding job on the oil rig and take the safer job in the factory down the street, etc…

I think you discount the less obvious and less physical benefits children bring to their parents erroneously to favor simple observations like “mom breast feeds the child, so it is a parasite.”

[/quote]

It seems awful arbitrary to ignore the emotional/spiritual benefits of the mother/child relationship.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
And based on the link I posted earlier, by week 12 the child’s body functions pretty damn well actually. So at week 20 I would imagine it functions damn well close enough to the same way it will once it is born. Why does being in the womb make it okay to murder, but being out of the womb not okay, Pittttttt?[/quote]

If the child is viable and the mother does not want it . It should be removed and taken care of . I am not in favor of killing any one or thing that does not need to be killed .

I am not in favor of partial birth abortions , if that is what you are getting at . [/quote]

You are in favor of killing babies, period. Let’s not get that confused. You just think because said baby is at “X” stage of development it doesn’t deserve the same protection as you, your son or daughter did. [/quote]

lol
[/quote]

Again, ignoring tough questions and presenting no rebuttal.

You don’t value human life unless it meets a certain criteria. How you can deny that by trying to post “lol” is beyond me, you’ve said it in plain English in this thread and others. [/quote]

what fucking question . you made a statement

I value all life

I am laughing at you

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Sigh.
[/quote]

Please don’t sigh at me, if you feel you are wasting your time, please just ignore me. It is extremely disrespectful.

However, the mother child relationship does not end at birth. It will last as long as both parties are alive and both parties are benefited by this relationship. It can even come to a point where the mother relies as much on the child as the child relied on the mother in the womb.

Thank you for clarifying. There are a number of pro-abortionist in this very thread that have made it clear a fetus is a parasite thus devalued. I will try not to respond with that implication to you again.

[quote]
I do, however, make distinctions between what I’d like to be, what “should be”, and what is.

In other words, I call an egg an egg, and no matter how much I’d like it to be a chicken, I see the wisdom of not counting it as one before it’s hatched. [/quote]

A human females eggs are eggs. A man’s sperm, is well sperm. When combined you get a fetus, which is a _________?

If a chicken egg is fertilized and left alone, the majority of the time, you’ll get a_______?[/quote]

I apologize for sighing. It was not “at you”.

I think I addressed your point about the relationship roles of parasite and host progressing to the point of mutual benefit, and even reversal of roles as the child becomes host to a parasitic parent. Again, no moral judgement is implied: these things exist, and in preindustrial societies it was (and is) understood that one of the reasons to have children is so that they may support you in your old age.

It doesn’t come naturally for us to think in these terms in this society, but humans have been doing the cost-benefit analysis of reproduction for millennia. Which is why infanticide has always, and will always, exist in some form or another on this planet. If a hunter-gatherer tribe, or even an agrarian community, lacks the resources to care for an infant, they will kill it in order so that the rest of the tribe or community may survive. We don’t have these problems any more so much in this country, but a family or a couple considering abortion makes the same type of analyses intuitively.

Not saying it’s “right”, just saying that’s how it is.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
usmccds423, if you looked at any entries in respectable dictionaries like Oxford or Webster, you would see that a parasite is not exclusively a creature of another species. Intraspecific parasitism happens all the time in the animal kingdom, usually among egg-laying species where an animal will lay an egg in the nest of another animal of its own species, so that the mother must care for another animal’s young.

A parasite is any animal that takes advantage of its host, regardless of species, gaining resources at the host’s expense. Before the word was used in a biological sense, it referred exclusively to humans: a parasite was simply a freeloader, literally one who ate at another man’s table, contributing little or nothing to his host in return.

We may not like to refer to an unborn child as a parasite, because of the but essentially that is what it is: during gestation it receives nutrients from its host (the mother), decreasing her fitness and causing her to require more nutrients and other resources to support both her and it.

Technically speaking, for the gestational period, it would be an endoparasite (like a tapeworm), because it is inside the mother’s body, and after birth it would be an ectoparasite, like a tick, that lives outside of the host’s body.

This is not to say that babies are tapeworms or ticks. Babies are cute and fuzzy, whereas ticks typically are not. But the gestation and raising of a child involves an implicit acceptance of the parasite-host relationship on the part of the mother.

And the abortion issue is essentially whether the host, who does not agree to the terms of such a relationship has the right to eject a freeloader from her table, with the knowledge that the freeloader will starve to death if she does. [/quote]

Oh brother. Okay, so by that definition, infants are parasites, really old people, children of any age really and a whole load of grown people who are dependant on others for their existence, and suck the life out of them and don’t return the favor.
If you want to broaden the definition, then fine. That will include a lot of people.

So I guess, if you are a organism that depends on another organism for it’s survival we’ve expounded that definition to just about most people. [/quote]

If you are an organism that depends for your survival on another organism, without appreciably contributing anything to that organism in return, then yes, you are a parasite. If you are not a freeloading piece of shit, then you probably don’t fit that description.

Most people do not, in fact, fit this definition. Most people have a symbiotic relationship with others. Many partnerships may not be entirely equal, but the essence of symbiosis is “you do something for me, I do something for you”. The essence of parasitism is “you do something for me, I do nothing for you”.

Pregnancy and child-rearing is a voluntary (in the majority of cases) parasite-host relationship, with the implicit understanding that the relationship will be a temporary one, and in fact that the roles may very well reverse at a later time, when a grown child may play host for its enfeebled parent.

[/quote]

So this is your way of trying to back out of the slippery slope you introduced? So by this take on the definition, something that returns a benefit to it’s host is not a parasite because it has a symbiotic relationship to it’s host. Therefore, if said pregnancy returns a benefit to it’s mother, say clearing up acne or fixing a nagging stomach problem she has had for years, then it’s a symbiotic relationship and not a parasitic one.

So if you get, what most doctors and biologists would agree is a parasite, like tape worm. But you are fat and the tapeworm has caused you to lose weight, then you have a symbiotic relationship with the tapeworm because you received some reciprocal benefit. Likewise if your are supporting your sister, who drains you dry and gives nothing in return that bitch is a parasite.
Yeah, you are no better off than before.
Yes, words mean things, and if you apply them to situations that are not technically valid, you introduce a slippery slope.