Ted Nugent on 2nd Amendment

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Is there a correlation between gun ownership and crime rates?[/quote]

Sort of.

[i]

Gun control and crime

In 1976, Washington, D.C., instituted one of the strictest gun-control laws in the country. The murder rate since that time has risen 134 percent (77.8 per 100,000 population) while the overall rate for the country has declined 2 percent. Washington, D.C., politicians find it easy to blame Virginiaâ??s less-stringent gun laws for the D.C. murder rate. Yet Virginia Beach, Virginiaâ??s largest city with almost 400,000 residents, has had one of the lowest rates of murder in the country â?? 4.1 per 100,000.

In New York City, long known for strict regulation of all types of weapons, only 19 percent of the 390 homicides in 1960 involved pistols. By 1972, this proportion had jumped to 49 percent of 1,691. In 1973, according to the New York Times, there were only 28,000 lawfully possessed handguns in the nationâ??s largest city, but police estimated that there were as many as 1.3 million illegal handguns there.

In 1986, Maryland banned small, affordable handguns called Saturday night specials. Within two years, Marylandâ??s murder rate increased by 20 percent, surpassing the national murder rate by 33 percent. Then Maryland passed a one-gun-a-month law. Yet between 1997 and 1998, 600 firearms recovered from crime scenes were traced to Maryland gun stores. Virginia, one of only two other states with a similar law, ranked third as a source of guns used by criminals in other states.

On the other hand, New Hampshire has almost no gun control and its cities are rated among the safest in the country. Across the border in Massachusetts, which has very stringent gun-control laws, cities of comparable size have two to three times as much crime as New Hampshire.

Vermont has the least restrictive gun-control law. It recognizes the right of any Vermonter who has not otherwise been prohibited from owning a firearm to carry concealed weapons without a permit or license. Yet Vermont has one of the lowest crime rates in America, ranking 49 out of 50 in all crimes and 47th in murders.

States which have passed concealed-carry laws have seen their murder rate fall by 8.5 percent, rapes by 5 percent, aggravated assaults by 7 percent and robbery by 3 percent.

Texas is a good example. In the early 1990s, Texasâ??s serious crime rate was 38 percent above the national average. Since then, serious crime in Texas has dropped 50 percent faster than for the nation as a whole. All this happened after passage of a concealed-carry law in 1994.
[/i]

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0210e.asp

22

I think it’s difficult to draw a correlation between drops in crime rates and increased gun ownership/right to carry reform. There are just too many other contributing factors…

But what we can conclude, now with the benefit of history, is that when the libs kicked and screamed every step of the way, proclaiming that there would be blood in the street, a return to the wild west, shoot outs over fender benders and violent crime rates through the roof…they were wrong. Everywhere that right to carry reform has decreased open/concealed carry regulation, crime has gone down.

And while, as I stated above, one may not be able to attribute this drop in crime rates solely to increased gun ownership and defensive carry prevalence, we do know one thing…violent crime rates didn’t increase.

23

[quote]JPCleary wrote:
I think it’s difficult to draw a correlation between drops in crime rates and increased gun ownership/right to carry reform. There are just too many other contributing factors…

But what we can conclude, now with the benefit of history, is that when the libs kicked and screamed every step of the way, proclaiming that there would be blood in the street, a return to the wild west, shoot outs over fender benders and violent crime rates through the roof…they were wrong. Everywhere that right to carry reform has decreased open/concealed carry regulation, crime has gone down.

And while, as I stated above, one may not be able to attribute this drop in crime rates solely to increased gun ownership and defensive carry prevalence, we do know one thing…violent crime rates didn’t increase.[/quote]

Good post. Exactly what I was feeling when I lazily typed “sort of” above.

24

[quote]JPCleary wrote:
I think it’s difficult to draw a correlation between drops in crime rates and increased gun ownership/right to carry reform. There are just too many other contributing factors…

But what we can conclude, now with the benefit of history, is that when the libs kicked and screamed every step of the way, proclaiming that there would be blood in the street, a return to the wild west, shoot outs over fender benders and violent crime rates through the roof…they were wrong. Everywhere that right to carry reform has decreased open/concealed carry regulation, crime has gone down.

And while, as I stated above, one may not be able to attribute this drop in crime rates solely to increased gun ownership and defensive carry prevalence, we do know one thing…violent crime rates didn’t increase.[/quote]

Good post.

What factors do you think contribute most significantly to crime rates?

25

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]JPCleary wrote:
I think it’s difficult to draw a correlation between drops in crime rates and increased gun ownership/right to carry reform. There are just too many other contributing factors…

But what we can conclude, now with the benefit of history, is that when the libs kicked and screamed every step of the way, proclaiming that there would be blood in the street, a return to the wild west, shoot outs over fender benders and violent crime rates through the roof…they were wrong. Everywhere that right to carry reform has decreased open/concealed carry regulation, crime has gone down.

And while, as I stated above, one may not be able to attribute this drop in crime rates solely to increased gun ownership and defensive carry prevalence, we do know one thing…violent crime rates didn’t increase.[/quote]

Good post.

What factors do you think contribute most significantly to crime rates?[/quote]

The number of criminals.

26

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]JPCleary wrote:
I think it’s difficult to draw a correlation between drops in crime rates and increased gun ownership/right to carry reform. There are just too many other contributing factors…

But what we can conclude, now with the benefit of history, is that when the libs kicked and screamed every step of the way, proclaiming that there would be blood in the street, a return to the wild west, shoot outs over fender benders and violent crime rates through the roof…they were wrong. Everywhere that right to carry reform has decreased open/concealed carry regulation, crime has gone down.

And while, as I stated above, one may not be able to attribute this drop in crime rates solely to increased gun ownership and defensive carry prevalence, we do know one thing…violent crime rates didn’t increase.[/quote]

Good post.

What factors do you think contribute most significantly to crime rates?[/quote]

The number of criminals.[/quote]

Haha. Makes sense. But what factors make a person more likely to become a criminal?

27

I do not know about the rest of the country but Phoenix and local are take credit for the drop in crime , when IMO it is we have had an exodus of poor people leaving AZ. I am not anti poor but Socioeconomic pressures effect crime

28

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]JPCleary wrote:
I think it’s difficult to draw a correlation between drops in crime rates and increased gun ownership/right to carry reform. There are just too many other contributing factors…

But what we can conclude, now with the benefit of history, is that when the libs kicked and screamed every step of the way, proclaiming that there would be blood in the street, a return to the wild west, shoot outs over fender benders and violent crime rates through the roof…they were wrong. Everywhere that right to carry reform has decreased open/concealed carry regulation, crime has gone down.

And while, as I stated above, one may not be able to attribute this drop in crime rates solely to increased gun ownership and defensive carry prevalence, we do know one thing…violent crime rates didn’t increase.[/quote]

Good post.

What factors do you think contribute most significantly to crime rates?[/quote]

The number of criminals.[/quote]

I will assume you are not just being tounge-in-cheek with this reply.

The biggest factor contributing to crime is the number of economic opportunities for crime – i.e., the risk/cost of punishment is lower than the reward gained from committing said crime.

Criminals are made of economic opportunity – it is not necessarily a good versus bad thing. And besides, a person who is considering committing his first ever crime cannot be considered a criminal until after the fact.

29

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]JPCleary wrote:
I think it’s difficult to draw a correlation between drops in crime rates and increased gun ownership/right to carry reform. There are just too many other contributing factors…

But what we can conclude, now with the benefit of history, is that when the libs kicked and screamed every step of the way, proclaiming that there would be blood in the street, a return to the wild west, shoot outs over fender benders and violent crime rates through the roof…they were wrong. Everywhere that right to carry reform has decreased open/concealed carry regulation, crime has gone down.

And while, as I stated above, one may not be able to attribute this drop in crime rates solely to increased gun ownership and defensive carry prevalence, we do know one thing…violent crime rates didn’t increase.[/quote]

Good post.

What factors do you think contribute most significantly to crime rates?[/quote]

The number of criminals.[/quote]

I will assume you are not just being tounge-in-cheek with this reply.

The biggest factor contributing to crime is the number of economic opportunities for crime – i.e., the risk/cost of punishment is lower than the reward gained from committing said crime.

Criminals are made of economic opportunity – it is not necessarily a good versus bad thing. And besides, a person who is considering committing his first ever crime cannot be considered a criminal until after the fact.[/quote]

Aren’t most crimes perpetrated by repeat offenders?

30

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]JPCleary wrote:
I think it’s difficult to draw a correlation between drops in crime rates and increased gun ownership/right to carry reform. There are just too many other contributing factors…

But what we can conclude, now with the benefit of history, is that when the libs kicked and screamed every step of the way, proclaiming that there would be blood in the street, a return to the wild west, shoot outs over fender benders and violent crime rates through the roof…they were wrong. Everywhere that right to carry reform has decreased open/concealed carry regulation, crime has gone down.

And while, as I stated above, one may not be able to attribute this drop in crime rates solely to increased gun ownership and defensive carry prevalence, we do know one thing…violent crime rates didn’t increase.[/quote]

Good post.

What factors do you think contribute most significantly to crime rates?[/quote]

The number of criminals.[/quote]

Haha. Makes sense. But what factors make a person more likely to become a criminal?[/quote]

A personal choice to do something criminal.

31

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]JPCleary wrote:
I think it’s difficult to draw a correlation between drops in crime rates and increased gun ownership/right to carry reform. There are just too many other contributing factors…

But what we can conclude, now with the benefit of history, is that when the libs kicked and screamed every step of the way, proclaiming that there would be blood in the street, a return to the wild west, shoot outs over fender benders and violent crime rates through the roof…they were wrong. Everywhere that right to carry reform has decreased open/concealed carry regulation, crime has gone down.

And while, as I stated above, one may not be able to attribute this drop in crime rates solely to increased gun ownership and defensive carry prevalence, we do know one thing…violent crime rates didn’t increase.[/quote]

Good post.

What factors do you think contribute most significantly to crime rates?[/quote]

The number of criminals.[/quote]

I will assume you are not just being tounge-in-cheek with this reply.

The biggest factor contributing to crime is the number of economic opportunities for crime – i.e., the risk/cost of punishment is lower than the reward gained from committing said crime.

Criminals are made of economic opportunity – it is not necessarily a good versus bad thing. And besides, a person who is considering committing his first ever crime cannot be considered a criminal until after the fact.[/quote]

Aren’t most crimes perpetrated by repeat offenders?[/quote]

But that is not the cause of crime.

I will agree that once a person becomes comfortable committing crimes then his perception of the risk will be lowered even though the cost is much greater. It still depends on the subjective valuations of the criminal.

32

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]JPCleary wrote:
I think it’s difficult to draw a correlation between drops in crime rates and increased gun ownership/right to carry reform. There are just too many other contributing factors…

But what we can conclude, now with the benefit of history, is that when the libs kicked and screamed every step of the way, proclaiming that there would be blood in the street, a return to the wild west, shoot outs over fender benders and violent crime rates through the roof…they were wrong. Everywhere that right to carry reform has decreased open/concealed carry regulation, crime has gone down.

And while, as I stated above, one may not be able to attribute this drop in crime rates solely to increased gun ownership and defensive carry prevalence, we do know one thing…violent crime rates didn’t increase.[/quote]

Good post.

What factors do you think contribute most significantly to crime rates?[/quote]

The number of criminals.[/quote]

I will assume you are not just being tounge-in-cheek with this reply.

The biggest factor contributing to crime is the number of economic opportunities for crime – i.e., the risk/cost of punishment is lower than the reward gained from committing said crime.

Criminals are made of economic opportunity – it is not necessarily a good versus bad thing. And besides, a person who is considering committing his first ever crime cannot be considered a criminal until after the fact.[/quote]

Aren’t most crimes perpetrated by repeat offenders?[/quote]

But that is not the cause of crime.

I will agree that once a person becomes comfortable committing crimes then his perception of the risk will be lowered even though the cost is much greater. It still depends on the subjective valuations of the criminal.[/quote]

People committing crime isn’t the cause of crime?

33

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
What factors do you think contribute most significantly to crime rates?[/quote]

The number of criminals.[/quote]

Haha. Makes sense. But what factors make a person more likely to become a criminal?[/quote]

A personal choice to do something criminal.[/quote]

Yes.

34

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]JPCleary wrote:
I think it’s difficult to draw a correlation between drops in crime rates and increased gun ownership/right to carry reform. There are just too many other contributing factors…

But what we can conclude, now with the benefit of history, is that when the libs kicked and screamed every step of the way, proclaiming that there would be blood in the street, a return to the wild west, shoot outs over fender benders and violent crime rates through the roof…they were wrong. Everywhere that right to carry reform has decreased open/concealed carry regulation, crime has gone down.

And while, as I stated above, one may not be able to attribute this drop in crime rates solely to increased gun ownership and defensive carry prevalence, we do know one thing…violent crime rates didn’t increase.[/quote]

Good post.

What factors do you think contribute most significantly to crime rates?[/quote]

The number of criminals.[/quote]

I will assume you are not just being tounge-in-cheek with this reply.

The biggest factor contributing to crime is the number of economic opportunities for crime – i.e., the risk/cost of punishment is lower than the reward gained from committing said crime.

Criminals are made of economic opportunity – it is not necessarily a good versus bad thing. And besides, a person who is considering committing his first ever crime cannot be considered a criminal until after the fact.[/quote]

Aren’t most crimes perpetrated by repeat offenders?[/quote]

But that is not the cause of crime.

I will agree that once a person becomes comfortable committing crimes then his perception of the risk will be lowered even though the cost is much greater. It still depends on the subjective valuations of the criminal.[/quote]

People committing crime isn’t the cause of crime?[/quote]

I thought we were theorizing on the reasons people commit crimes not what causes crime.

Other than that your statement is tautological and offers no more information – it is apodictically certain that crime is caused by criminals but that does not answers why criminals commit crimes.

Sorry to be so pedantic.

35

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]JPCleary wrote:
I think it’s difficult to draw a correlation between drops in crime rates and increased gun ownership/right to carry reform. There are just too many other contributing factors…

But what we can conclude, now with the benefit of history, is that when the libs kicked and screamed every step of the way, proclaiming that there would be blood in the street, a return to the wild west, shoot outs over fender benders and violent crime rates through the roof…they were wrong. Everywhere that right to carry reform has decreased open/concealed carry regulation, crime has gone down.

And while, as I stated above, one may not be able to attribute this drop in crime rates solely to increased gun ownership and defensive carry prevalence, we do know one thing…violent crime rates didn’t increase.[/quote]

Good post.

What factors do you think contribute most significantly to crime rates?[/quote]

The number of criminals.[/quote]

I will assume you are not just being tounge-in-cheek with this reply.

The biggest factor contributing to crime is the number of economic opportunities for crime – i.e., the risk/cost of punishment is lower than the reward gained from committing said crime.

Criminals are made of economic opportunity – it is not necessarily a good versus bad thing. And besides, a person who is considering committing his first ever crime cannot be considered a criminal until after the fact.[/quote]

Aren’t most crimes perpetrated by repeat offenders?[/quote]

But that is not the cause of crime.

I will agree that once a person becomes comfortable committing crimes then his perception of the risk will be lowered even though the cost is much greater. It still depends on the subjective valuations of the criminal.[/quote]

People committing crime isn’t the cause of crime?[/quote]

I thought we were theorizing on the reasons people commit crimes not what causes crime.

Other than that your statement is tautological and offers no more information – it is apodictically certain that crime is caused by criminals but that does not answers why criminals commit crimes.

Sorry to be so pedantic.[/quote]

My point, was that there is only 1 cause to crime. I’m only attempting to point out, in my somewhat tautological post, that reasons people commit crimes and the cause of crimes are entirely separate things.

And you left out a lot of influences in the reasoning behind crimes. Mainly moral structure. Human behavior is not entirely decided on a physical cost to benefit analysis.

36

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
And you left out a lot of influences in the reasoning behind crimes. Mainly moral structure. Human behavior is not entirely decided on a physical cost to benefit analysis. [/quote]

I totally agree. But humans always make choices to act or not to act and it is always based on their subjective valuations of the means versus the ends. Even if they cannot express it as such.

Saying someone is morally bad and that’s why they commit crime does us no good in gaining any more knowledge on the subject – though I am interested in what makes people bad or good or if there is even any philosophical ground to theorize it.

37

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
And you left out a lot of influences in the reasoning behind crimes. Mainly moral structure. Human behavior is not entirely decided on a physical cost to benefit analysis. [/quote]

I totally agree. But humans always make choices to act or not to act and it is always based on their subjective valuations of the means versus the ends. Even if they cannot express it as such.

Saying someone is morally bad and that’s why they commit crime does us no good in gaining any more knowledge on the subject – though I am interested in what makes people bad or good or if there is even any philosophical ground to theorize it.[/quote]

I never mentioned anything about anyone necessarily being bad or good. I was purposefully avoiding the terms because they are entirely independent of legality. I was trying to restrain my conversation to the matter of legality.

38

[quote]JPCleary wrote:
I think it’s difficult to draw a correlation between drops in crime rates and increased gun ownership/right to carry reform. There are just too many other contributing factors…

But what we can conclude, now with the benefit of history, is that when the libs kicked and screamed every step of the way, proclaiming that there would be blood in the street, a return to the wild west, shoot outs over fender benders and violent crime rates through the roof…they were wrong. Everywhere that right to carry reform has decreased open/concealed carry regulation, crime has gone down.

And while, as I stated above, one may not be able to attribute this drop in crime rates solely to increased gun ownership and defensive carry prevalence, we do know one thing…violent crime rates didn’t increase.[/quote]

Thought about this thread when I came across this article…

Here, the author makes essentially the same point I made above…

"The problem for opponents is that they have sown fear from the beginning, only to harvest a meager crop. A generation ago, few states allowed concealed-carry. When Florida captured national attention by legalizing it in 1987, critics forecast mass carnage. When other states followed suit, the same predictions were heard.

But they turned out to be false alarms. Instead of an epidemic of violence, the nation saw a drop. Since 1991, the murder rate has been cut nearly in half. You don’t have to believe that “shall-issue” laws caused the decline to grasp that they certainly didn’t get in the way."