Taurus Handguns

[quote]hedo wrote:

So do you have an opinion on the Taurus 24/7 Pro? Just curious?

[/quote]

I am curious, actually. I think a lot of people (especially in countries where guns are not as popular, such as Australia) wonder why people would choose to have a gun if not required for their work.

Having a gun increases the likelihood of an accident by guns (that’s commonsense). Statistics also point to family members being victims instead of intruders so the personal protection argument is weak at best (notwithsanding Katrina etc).

‘The Right to Bear Arms’ argument is a fallacy as any reading of the text indicates.

Bullpup notes that people are murdered by shovels. True, I suppose. Then he made the hoary argument about banning them. It’s silly. Like strangulation: should we ban hands? Of course, not. If we did, you wouldn’t be able to fire your guns and I wouldn’t have a sex life.

Hey, if you’re into guns, enjoy. What interests me is the reason and the psychology of why people own guns.

My apologies as well. My head must have been up my arse (thanks derek, you sound like a charmer) so I missed your earlier post yesterday explaining your situation. My bad. At least it kept this issue on the recent posts page and maybe you got some more advice that you would not otherwise have received.

For the record, hedo, I appreciate your measured responses - it was a nice change from the others (but it was expected).

[quote]David Murtagh wrote:

More to the point, why would you buy a gun in the first place?
[/quote]

Because we can. I bought my first civvie firearm after my grandfather told me about a sign that read, “Buy a gun, piss off Clinton.”

[quote]
have the right to arm bears thrown in my face etc etc etc along with other ministerpretations of your constitution, but I’ll just have to deal with it.)[/quote]

Yep, and we’ll continue to use it as long as we are an independent nation, with our own system and constitution.

Honestly, after some discussions with some fine Irish folks in Galway and Moate last week, I understand the Euro (ie, UN, which includes you) confusion over our desire for firearms. I don’t hate them for it. Far from it, I used the opportunity to discuss the American historical and current perspectives on firearms and other freedoms. We had some good talks which didn’t involve anybody slinging inadequacy issues or anything around.

You’ll get better mileage from discussions if you don’t dismiss one of our most sacred documents (the Supreme Law of the Land) out of hand. We’re not Italy, we don’t write a new one up every three years.

[quote]David Murtagh wrote:
I am curious, actually. I think a lot of people (especially in countries where guns are not as popular, such as Australia) wonder why people would choose to have a gun if not required for their work.
[/quote]

Well for most, it’s a combo of sport, hobby, and heritage. Around here nearly everyone has some type of gun because there are plenty of hunters here. Also, I say heritage because most of us have grown up with our fathers passing on guns to their sons. It wasn’t very long ago that a lot of people hunted to supplement their food stock. Plus farming was also big, so guns were used to eliminate varmits.

Also, shooting, be it target or skeet, is literally a blast. It’s awesome to control such power and direct it to a pinpoint. Having a gun doesn’t always mean killing. Handguns were made to kill people, I know that, but it doesn’t mean a population of gun owners are less civil. Let’s face it, if there were no guns around, knives, swords, and bows and arrows will still murder weapons. If someone is gonna kill, they are gonna get it done some how.

[quote]David Murtagh wrote:
‘The Right to Bear Arms’ argument is a fallacy as any reading of the text indicates.[/quote]

I don’t have time to speak to all of your issues, but this piece of your case does not hold water (or anything else for that matter). You need only look at the writings of the people who designed the constutution to see YOUR fallacy, never mind numerous supreme court decisions throughout this country’s history. I will leave the homework to you.

Even if you choose not to do any, does logic not dictate that this “fallacy” would have been discovered by now?

[quote]David Murtagh wrote:
I am curious, actually. I think a lot of people (especially in countries where guns are not as popular, such as Australia) wonder why people would choose to have a gun if not required for their work.
[/quote]

Instead of continuing to hijack Hedo’s thread, why not start a thread in Politics & World Issues on this topic?

While you are at it, take a look at these threads on the topic of handguns and deadly force:

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=853256
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=635839
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=854764
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=864737
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=464430
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=764945

[quote]hedo wrote:
Thanks for the replies gentlemen. It seems like a great gun for $400. I’ve got a few 1911’s and a 4506 S&W. Partial to the .45’s.
[/quote]

If you can get it for $400, it looks like a pretty good deal. Before I buy a gun, I usually check out the market on Gunbroker.com:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=49493436

[quote]David Murtagh wrote:
hedo wrote:

So do you have an opinion on the Taurus 24/7 Pro? Just curious?

I am curious, actually. I think a lot of people (especially in countries where guns are not as popular, such as Australia) wonder why people would choose to have a gun if not required for their work.

Having a gun increases the likelihood of an accident by guns (that’s commonsense). Statistics also point to family members being victims instead of intruders so the personal protection argument is weak at best (notwithsanding Katrina etc).

‘The Right to Bear Arms’ argument is a fallacy as any reading of the text indicates.

Bullpup notes that people are murdered by shovels. True, I suppose. Then he made the hoary argument about banning them. It’s silly. Like strangulation: should we ban hands? Of course, not. If we did, you wouldn’t be able to fire your guns and I wouldn’t have a sex life.

Hey, if you’re into guns, enjoy. What interests me is the reason and the psychology of why people own guns.

My apologies as well. My head must have been up my arse (thanks derek, you sound like a charmer) so I missed your earlier post yesterday explaining your situation. My bad. At least it kept this issue on the recent posts page and maybe you got some more advice that you would not otherwise have received.

For the record, hedo, I appreciate your measured responses - it was a nice change from the others (but it was expected).[/quote]

David

I think the statistics you are quoting are somewhat flawed. If you can read up on some of the work that John Lott has done.

The personal defense argument is very strong. Only the untrained or those that choose to remain that way are more dangerous to other family members. A competent gun owner is not only proficent with his weapon but when to use it. For the record all mine are locked up when not being carried, ammo stored seperately. My carry gun is stored in a smaller safe close at hand.

I’ve read the second ammendment. It seems crystal clear who the “people” are.

Finally why carry a gun? I can understand the that people from countries with restrictive gun laws may find this a strange concept to understand. It all boils down to this. Why trust someone else to defend you or your family. I appreciate the work that the police do but I don’t expect one to be near me 24 hrs/day. When they are not, a concealed handgun in the hands of a competent person is extremely effective against assailants. It is also a postive and proven deterent.

I searched for John Lott and came upon this CONCEALED HANDGUN FRAUD: EXPOSING JOHN LOTT which can be found here
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issues/?page=lott.

And this admission from Lott that he invented an internet fan of his work
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A8884-2003Jan31.

However, you won’t find it on his website. The document was dates 31 Jan 2003. His blog starts at Feb 2003.

Quoting from the Washington Post means I may have to return my NeoCon T-shirt, but the truth justifies it.

Lott also admitted to having his son post a positve review of his book on Amazon. Yes, his morals, courage and academic standards set a new low.

lsu_nonleg, the Constitution may be one your “most sacred texts” but you change frequently.

Amendment I though Amendment X constitute what is known as the Bill of Rights where you’ll find the Amendment II, reading: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” The “well regulated militia” being the first thought discarded when people want their muscats, assault rifles and ‘cop killer’ bullets. I am sure these weapons are absolutely necessary in day-to-day life in New Jersey if your hobby happens to be shooting cops through bulletproof vests. Can anyone possibly justify their sale? I await a strong defence on spurius grounds.

Sorry about that last bit, I really don’t want to take this thread off track. No, wait, too late.

But back to lsu_nonleg. At last count the sacred text had undergone 27 amendments, notably including Amendment XVIII that brought in prohibition and the Amendment XXI that took it away (control Z or Liquid Paper having yet to be invented).

And I’m not making fun of it, so calm down. The fact that it has been changed indicates a willingness of your Founding Fathers to allow the document to move with the times. A rock-solid constitution is useless; yours isn’t. Maybe there is some relevance about moving with the times when discussing gun laws? Let’s discuss! (Incidentally, the quality of your Constitution is acknolweged is well known, it even served as part of the inspiration for the Australian Constitution.)

Loose Tool, I could go elsewhere but this is happening here. I’ve checked out almost all the pages of the old threads you referenced and it’s interesting that the same people are making many of the same points here, including quoting that fraud Lott. I wasn’t in those debates, but I am definitely in this one. Do I expect people to change their mind? No - but hopefully posters will refer to better data than that which was fabricated. I may even change my mind (it happens, not often, but it happens). Maybe the fact that data had to be fabricated indicates a problem in finding factual (dare I say, bulletproof?) data to support your cause.

hedo, “a concealed handgun in the hands of a competent person is extremely effective against assailants. It is also a postive and proven deterent.” Well, it can’t be a deterrent if it’s concealed. The whole basis of deterrence is knowing that a threat exists (hence, during the Cold War, mutually assurred destruction was a deterrence as the threat of annihilation was ever present).

This is fun and continues to be fun. Speak again soon.

Love, Dave

David why do you have such a hard-on for this? We legally can posses guns. That’s it. Deal with it. We don’t have to give you a reason or explanation as to why, that’s how it is. It’s our right and our privilage. Ok?

[quote]BIGRAGOO wrote:
David why do you have such a hard-on for this? We legally can posses guns. That’s it. Deal with it. We don’t have to give you a reason or explanation as to why, that’s how it is. It’s our right and our privilage. Ok?[/quote]

Quote of the day.

[quote]Massif wrote:
BIGRAGOO wrote:
David why do you have such a hard-on for this? We legally can posses guns. That’s it. Deal with it. We don’t have to give you a reason or explanation as to why, that’s how it is. It’s our right and our privilage. Ok?

Quote of the day.[/quote]

I agree with both of you. Well said.

And BIGRAGOO didn’t even have to get nasty! Enjoy the rest of your forum, fellas, alhough it’ll probably die now.)

[quote]David Murtagh wrote:
In retrospect, I entered this as a bit of fun (could you tell?) but again, the first question I posed was “Do you need it for work?” and the second was “why would you buy a gun in the first place?”

These questions have not been answered.

Fact is, there’s a third option over: hedo doesn’t have to buy a gun. No one who has been on this thread has presented a valid reason for having a gun. In fact, it’s an issue that has been avoided like the plague.

Sheriff, you wouldn’t even say why you were trained in firearms handling. Today, you have a valid reason for having a gun but why carry one when you aren’t on duty? It sounds like you live in a safe place (you must be a super trooper!) why do you need it?

[/quote]

How about because they want one. In a free country, we don’t need a reason.

Why do I want a truck when I could take a bus? Why do I want a nice TV when I could have a 13" B&W?

Why do you need a computer? Why do you need an Internet connection?

Why do you need to lift weights?

If your worried about shooting yourself, maybe you should put down the bottle and check into a mental hospital? Get some anger management classes or something?

Quite a leap of logic from handgun ownership for sport to “assault rifles and ‘cop killer’ bullets. I am sure these weapons are absolutely necessary in day-to-day life in New Jersey if your hobby happens to be shooting cops through bulletproof vests.”

DM,

I have drawn my concealed weapon twice in 15 years. Both times it was a positive deterent. Never even put my finger on the trigger.

[quote]Massif wrote:
BIGRAGOO wrote:
David why do you have such a hard-on for this? We legally can posses guns. That’s it. Deal with it. We don’t have to give you a reason or explanation as to why, that’s how it is. It’s our right and our privilage. Ok?

Quote of the day.[/quote]

I second this

Bullpup

[quote]GreenMountains wrote:

How about because they want one. In a free country, we don’t need a reason.

Why do I want a truck when I could take a bus? Why do I want a nice TV when I could have a 13" B&W?

Why do you need a computer? Why do you need an Internet connection?

Why do you need to lift weights?

If your worried about shooting yourself, maybe you should put down the bottle and check into a mental hospital? Get some anger management classes or something?

Quite a leap of logic from handgun ownership for sport to “assault rifles and ‘cop killer’ bullets. I am sure these weapons are absolutely necessary in day-to-day life in New Jersey if your hobby happens to be shooting cops through bulletproof vests.”

[/quote]

I’m back. Did you miss me? Nevermind, I know you did, that’s why you invited me back.

“I want one” is how a spoilt child reacts. You can do better than that, can’t you? And while you may not think you need a reason, the fact they are inherently dangerous with little utility beyond shooting something requires we ask the question ‘what are you going to shoot?’

Targets? Fine. Keep it at a range.

But what else? In whose hands could it fall? The teenagers who carry out the school shootings do not own the guns they use. They steal them from their parents, who were often licensed, stored the guns correctly and never broke the law themselves. But so long as your kids don’t get shot then I suppose it’s fine.

If revealing a concealed weapon is sufficient to scare a would-be attacker, then having a real gun on you at all times seems like overkill (so to speak). Surely a fake would suffice as no one here has so far indicated their revealed weapon has been used in ‘anger’.

Speaking of which, anger management, GreenMountains? Check the other posts; they’ve been consistently more aggressive and ill mannered than mine. Yours for example.

And I don’t drink, but thanks for your concern. That’s very caring of you.

The leap isn’t too great from guns to assault weapons etc, as the same arguments for the right to gun ownership have been extended over time to the more pernicious weapons. It started with quite a reasonable proposition but has since become absurd.

Why lift weights? It helps gets me laid. Is that the reason you have a gun, GM? I hope not. Repeat after me, GM: ‘No’ means no. ‘No’ means no …

[quote]David Murtagh wrote:
Blah, Blah, Blah… It’s okay to own a handgun, just not in your home except if you live in rural areas… Blah, Blah, Blah…[/quote]

Mr. Murtagh,

  1. Do you currently or have you ever owned, operated, and maintained a firearm?

If yes, why you and not us? If no, then you really do not understand the onus and responsibility of firearm ownership and really should not be preaching it, especially not to those currently or formerly charged with defending our nation.

  1. Do you feel that people should be free to do as they please so long as it doesn’t affect your own life and liberty?

If yes, I don’t really see what your issue with any of our guns is, neither you nor my neighbor will be affected by my gun ownership. If no, then suddenly you become a very small part of the reason we have the right to bear arms.

[quote]David Murtagh wrote:

Having a gun increases the likelihood of an accident by guns (that’s commonsense). Statistics also point to family members being victims instead of intruders so the personal protection argument is weak at best (notwithsanding Katrina etc).
[/quote]

The risks can be minimized by safe gun handling and storage.

Accident statistics are always inflated by idiots.

Completely false.

Anyone that uses the term “cop killer bullet” is either completely ignorant of the subject matter or is intentionally dishonest.

hedo,

My question would be what are you going to do with the weapon? You have stated that you have a few 45’s and a concealed permit, so what is the need for one more?

If it is for the range, then it would be an excellent purchase, due to the warranty on the weapon. You could bang tens of thousands of rounds without worry of wear or breakage.

If it is for carry, there are smaller 45’s that would be better for the task.

If is for home defense, a 1911A1 would be the best choise, due to the sheer reliability of the weapon under combat conditions. Of course, I hope you are using frag ammo for home defense; better stopping power and will not go through any walls.

Stinker.

i can see that this topic has inevitably gone of topic. to reply to the original post, i would go with a higher quality pistol if .45 is the caliber you have your heart set on. the weight should be on the heavy side to help keep you on target. since it does not appear that you will be packing this piece weight also will not be an issue.the only .45 i have ever liked is the 1911 frame. the possablities are endless, it’s the most customizable handgun ever built. parts are made by just about everybody, and 98% are interchangeable.a military spec .45 is plenty of pistol for the dollar, around $500+ regisration fees, and tax.from there you can go up to and beyond $10,000. my pick was the springfield armory 1911-a1 “loaded”.

it came with novak sights, match barrel, extended beavertail, match trigger, lightweight hammer, and parkerized finish(protects from scratches). for a couple hundred more i have added a compensated barrel($120), extended slide stop($10), 18.5# recoil spring($10), shock-buff recoil pad($5), and rap around rubber grips($25).total cost for my firearm before the upgrades was less than $800. for a RELIABLE easy to maintain, and even easier to customize piece, the 1911 frame cant be beat.good luck