T-Nation Atheists

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Most people here are in one of two camps when it comes to evaluation of religion.
They either hold it in the highest of regards, or they feel it is dangerous.

Religion is indeed very very powerful.

Imagine you were a king/queen in ancient times. Religion is then one of your greatest assets. You would need it…

to unite your lands and to link them culturally
to have a legitimate (divine) mandate to rule
to have a simple cause to conquer distant lands
to motivate your people to endure certain absurd hardships, like building a tomb of titanic proportions
to keep the lower classes at bay since it’s their divine destiny to eat mud throughout their entire life.

etc. etc.

Face it, religion was essential.
But today…?

A war just for profit seems very not cool. In the past you could easily justify it but now you’ll face demonstrators.

Scientific methodology dares now to explain the power behind things. Lightning is no longer god’s wrath. But what is best- we can tap this power of science to operate moden machinery.
No one is supposed to be better, all men are equal, there is no caste system, aristocrats have no right for special treatment because they were born on a different bedsheet.

All of this development is a good thing, I believe we can all agree with that.

On the other hand:
To force a certain belief upon your citzens and is totally out of line. That seems great. But a society with mixed values can face difficulties.
Can we live with a society which knows no moral bounds, no “higher” gage?

For example: How can we face the muslims who believe they have moral high grounds?
If we were like them, we would simply Nuke 'em. But instead, we believe it would barbarous to do so.

Now things get complicated. I’m really curious how things will be in thirty years.

The main dilemma is: How can you justify anything morally without god?
There’s no god, and man can always be wrong.

I really envy those pious sheep. Although their system of belief is absolutely hilarious, at least they have something they can stick to.

Oh christ, believe me, my values are as rock hard as yours, but I have no “sacred authority”. Others can judge me, reject me, laugh at me freely, since I’m not god’s son.
How am I supposed to tell my children what is right.

I’m free but freedom feels sometimes like being naked. Without a burden, without protecion.
I will die and there will be only dust.
I can always be wrong.
I’m alone.

Am I?

No- I simply know I am not among god and the stars. I’m here on earth. I have to cope with that and arrange myself with that. I shall build not a kingdom of heaven but a land of the free. I will try to be just and kind, for HUMAN’S SAKE. I shall learn that while he is not the highest creature under god, he is my own brother.

God IS dead.
It was necessary to invent him.
Which we did.
Not too long ago, it was necessary to live without him.
So we killed him.
We must learn to live with that.[/quote]

One of the most intelligent posts I have yet to read.

Well done. (Although I don’t agree with your conclusion :slight_smile: )

One thing: be careful about calling people “pious sheep.” It’s easy to label people who are different from you, but you may realize that you can just as easily be labeled. If someone is truly talking down to you and judging you for your beliefs (or lack of them), you will find it better and more productive to answer them with humility (a good lesson from Jesus - turn the other cheek).

Also consider this: biblical accuracy is indeed suspect, but Jesus’ teachings are universally accepted. It’s probably safe to assume that you accept them too. Loving each other, acting humbly, acceptance of others, etc… I know there are exceptions, but the point is still valid.

Many argue the semantics (including me!), but few argue what really matters about Jesus’ life, which is what he taught us.

62

[quote]Hamster wrote:
Good responses all!

Schwartzfahler:

I would have to disagree with you in regards to your assertion that technology has advanced to the point of measuring “angels,” as there is no direct way to measure a non-physical entity, one devoid of matter and energy.
.
.
.
Just my opinion… what do you think?
[/quote]
Hi Hamster.
First, I’m SchwarzfAHRer. (fare dodger)

Tell you what. The older I get, teh less I believe in supernatural phenomena.
Depending on my sleeping rythm, I can have lucid dreams rather easily. I can feel the point where my body is completely numb and relaxed and I’m prone to sleeping.
This also means that my mind sometimes wakes before my body does. If I have open eyes I can see strange things.
I remember I had this feeling the first time. I literally FELT the presence of someone approaching me. It was disturbing. I coudn’t exactly see who, or better, what it was and it was scary.
Being a test driven guy, I grunted and tried with all my strength to oppose him- but I was helpless, my body-limp.
Later, I realized what this was. You see, to not move too much when sleeping (and possibly falling from trees) nature has invented some special Sleep-hormone which nearly paralyzes you. When people awake mind-first,which is rare enough, your left brainhalf can be drowsy leaving you in a very spontanous and phantasizing state. You see THINGS, especially on the edges of your vision. It’s not very pleasant.
In the medieval times, these visitors were known as “incubi” and they were sometimes held responsible for an unwanted pregnancy.

So, today my innner self smiles when encountering unwanted guests in my sleeping chamber during dreamtime.

I truly want to see miracles.
If I would encounter a real ghost I wouldn’t be really scared, I would be overjoyed.

But still all of the reports of some phenomena are rather untrustworthy in my eyes.

HOWEVER:
There are, no doubt, a lot of things we cannot explain, perhaps never will.
I agree with that.
Which I like a lot.
A world without mysteries would be boring, at least to me.

Still, at least 95%-99% of UFO reports, Psi-Phenomena and the like are a load of rubbish, I say.

What say you?

63

I’m not going to hijack and “speak up for a supreme being” here, but I will mention that the human brain may have a fundamental physical characteristic that no other animals have on earth which is the ability to cause collapse of the wave function in a quantum system by the act of observation. We know that humans can do this. It has never been tested whether other animals can, I mean Schodender could collapse the wave function by opening the box, but his cat could not-at least he never considered that it could, and certainly a Poinsettia plant could not.

Also, near death experiences could be explained as a simply a large outpouring of endorphines to numb the pain which happens in that case to be associated with death.

64

There are differnet kinds of atheism. The word itself simply means ‘without belief in diety.’ It doesn’t mean ‘heathen’ or ‘actively disbelieves in God’ or any other such nonsense attributed to it by non-atheists. Even agnostics are essentially atheits, they don’t believe in a god, they’re without belief in dieties.

There are Atheists, with a capital ‘A’ who go around prosthetilizing just like believers do. I don’t really understand this kind of militant, active atheism, after all, you don’t believe in a God so what do you hve to rail against?

I’m an atheist, I don’t believe in any dieties, I don’t see any reason to do so. If there are gods, they have absolutely no relevance to me or my life.

65

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
I’m not going to hijack and “speak up for a supreme being” here, but I will mention that the human brain may have a fundamental physical characteristic that no other animals have on earth which is the ability to cause collapse of the wave function in a quantum system by the act of observation. We know that humans can do this. It has never been tested whether other animals can, I mean Schodender could collapse the wave function by opening the box, but his cat could not-at least he never considered that it could, and certainly a Poinsettia plant could not.[/quote]

Ummm…Schrodinger’s Cat was just a thought experiment you know. Go ahead and try it with a real cat if you would like, I’m sure PETA won’t mind.

Seriously though, it is the act of observation itself that disturbs a quantum system and collapses its wave function. Come up with any method of observation possible and it will always disturb the system being observed. Just because a cat hasn’t invented an electron microscope doesn’t mean that it couldn’t collapse a wave function.

66

[quote]Xvim wrote:
I’m an atheist, I don’t believe in any dieties, I don’t see any reason to do so. If there are gods, they have absolutely no relevance to me or my life.
[/quote]

I am right there with you Xvim…but I will speak up for at least some of the more “active” atheists out there.

If you look at the political landscape of the United States you will notice a rather powerful, extremely well funded movement that sees nothing wrong with the Ten Commandments being endorsed as law by the U.S. government (thou shalt have no other gods before me…ummmm…), wants to make abortion illegal on religious grounds, wants prayer time in public school classrooms, wants to teach creationism in public school science classes…

There is every reason to be very concerned about this and perhaps even actively combat it.

67

[quote]Hamster wrote:

One thing: be careful about calling people “pious sheep.” It’s easy to label people who are different from you, but you may realize that you can just as easily be labeled. If someone is truly talking down to you and judging you for your beliefs (or lack of them), you will find it better and more productive to answer them with humility (a good lesson from Jesus - turn the other cheek).
.
.
AND
.
.
Many argue the semantics (including me!), but few argue what really matters about Jesus’ life, which is what he taught us.
[/quote]
Hi again, Hamster.
I take the freedom to call them sheep.
Some may feel offended. Okay.
It’s not that I don’t care about that, but the freedom of mocking religion is extremely important.

I believe it’s even more important than being allowed to crack jokes about minorities.
As long as your aim is not simply to hurt somebody I believe it is okay and even more, of grave importance to a secular state.

That’s why I consider the whole affair about the Mohammed Jokes a crossroad in dealing with fundamental arabs.
How can anyone DARE to believe he’s found a theory so important, so beautifully significant for humanity that he has the right to defend it violently from libel.
You see, if he would be right, he could feel offended just by ANY action because his system can tell him to do do.

And that is the absurd situation: the mere existance of our democratic and laicistic western world IS an insult to fundamentalistic Islam.
Therefore, and with all my love for humanity and humour, I will continue to laugh at those bearded guys in the clouds, if I feel like it, be it Allah or Jehova or whoever.

And I hope you will laugh with me.

Now for Jesus (again):
You’re very right. The gist of the “tale of Jesus” , his teachings regarding love and compassion are very important-for me, at least.
Great parts of it formed the core of which the western values are compromised.
Values which I do not connect with bearded gods, but which I hold very dear and will protect at all costs.

So the western myth of “Jesus” and it’s core [compassion, humility, mercifulness, leading by example etc.]is something I would call sacred if I would be a believer.
Still, everyone is free to make fun of my values if he wants. I don’t feel attacked and I don’t feel offended from mere jokes.

68

Good points, I should be more specific.

My family, for the most part, are devout Christians who not only believe in their God but they actually put the teachings of christ into practice in their daily lives. I respect their beliefs and have no desire to evanglize them or any other person of faith. However, we WILL butt heads when you try to force your religious intolerances into law.

There is a very active, right wing, extremist political movement afoot at the moment that’s trying to enact some pretty horrendous legislation, I suspect that much of the influence and power they have is a direct result of a conservative backlash against the liberalism that marked the Clinton years.

The pendulum swings, right now it’s on the far right and it will swing back to center and maybe a little left of center when everything goes to shit, some would argue it already has and the pendulum has already begun to swing the other way.

Personally I’m very socially liberal and fiscally conservative. Libertarian perhaps but without as much faith in totally uncontrolled free markets as most libertarieans seem to be.

The government that governs least governs best… there shouldn’t be laws for example, having anything to do with sexual orientation, except maybe anti descrimination laws. Constitutional amendments to ban gay marriage? Social engineering enacted by law by the very people who were bitching loudest about the very same thing when it was the left trying to pass laws to control things… ugh. Senseless rambling now, sorry.

Point is, I respect everyone’s right to believe what they wish… but your rights end where mine begin and vice verse.

69

[quote]Mordred wrote:

If you look at the political landscape of the United States you will notice a rather powerful, extremely well funded movement that sees nothing wrong with the Ten Commandments being endorsed as law by the U.S. government (thou shalt have no other gods before me…ummmm…), wants to make abortion illegal on religious grounds, wants prayer time in public school classrooms, wants to teach creationism in public school science classes…

There is every reason to be very concerned about this and perhaps even actively combat it.
[/quote]

That is the real danger. We must take “moral” and “values” from the wicked clutches of self-righteous pilgrims and priests.
There is something, even without macho-gods telling us, that we all can agree to.
Everyone knows it’s wrong to kill, to steal, to rape, to abuse.

Some dusty, thousand year old propaganda scrolls won’t help humanity which is confronted with so many situations the shoddy old texts aren’t prepared for.
Religion is ineffective to really make this world fair and just.
A Catholic has sinned? Let’s confess and get over it!
A Buddhist has commited a crime? That’s karma, but hell, more luck in my next life!
A Muslim has killed? Well, technically, it was just a heathen so let’s call it jihad, 'kay?
.
.
Let’s face it:
Those old teachings are mostly crap. People can feel they are not responsible when commiting terrible atrocities.
It’s fate, god’s will, Holy War, whatever. This nonsense will never stop.
Insead:
Take full responsibility of your actions, judge them by YOURSELF and not a sacred codex of an undead, bearded god.

70

A couple of the things I really like about Buddhism:

The Dalai Lama has said that if science conclusively proves that something is not true within his religion, then his religion should change. He himself was taught that the world was flat, the moon shone with it’s own light, etc. He found that these things were not true, and so they are not taught as true anymore.

Buddhism places relatively little value on scripture. Christianity seems to place everything on scripture. You know, the old “it says so in the Bible…” crap. Buddhism says that if you read something in the scriptures that does not logically make sense, then the scriptures are probably wrong. Also, if you experience something (usually repeatedly) that goes against your logical thoughts, then your logic may be faulty. It goes like this: personal experience > logical thought > scripture

So, if you experience something that contradicts 2000 year old writings, go with your experiences.

I like the sound of that.

71

It has been said without God, there is no morality. Here is a book to combat that assertion:

Rights from wrongs : a secular theory of the origins of rights by Alan Dershowitz

It’s a good read, saying that rights do not come from God (he doesn’t talk to everyone, and doesn’t say the same thing to everyone) or nature. Rights come from man, and our experiences.

72

[quote]futuredave wrote:
Hamster wrote:
Jesus could not have possibly been just a “good guy.” He claimed to be God! So it stands to reason that either he was: a)God, or b)a liar and a great deceiver of many!

Actually, his claims were pretty common. There were dozens of men who came and went, claiming to be the messiah.[/quote]

Okay…name one.

Exactly how many healed cripples, returned sight to the blind and raised people from the dead?

Even the historians of the day called him “magical.”

While they did not know what to make of him he was indeed a puzzle to them.

73

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

True atheists always seem like they are putting on a little act.[/quote]

And that act is nasty, hateful and very, very bitter.

But Atheists know everything about it. Just ask one.

74

[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
ZEB wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
How about agnostic? Or those that think philisophically about whether or not God exists?

I think pure atheists are very few and far between.

Interesting comment my friend.

I worked in a nursing home once and I never once saw a dying atheist.

Odd huh?

No not odd at all. It helps prove my opinion that most people resort to religion out of the fear of death.

For hundreds of years churches tell you that if you don’t worship god you will burn in hell for eternity. Kind of like a schoolyard bully demanding luch money in return for not beating you up.
[/quote]

Yea…you might be right…(everyone smiling and laughing).

But then again you might be dead wrong.

(not so funny now)

75

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Yea…you might be right…(everyone smiling and laughing).

But then again you might be dead wrong.

(not so funny now)

[/quote]

Or everyone might be wrong.

(funny in an ironic sort of way)

76

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Exactly how many healed cripples, returned sight to the blind and raised people from the dead?

Even the historians of the day called him “magical.”

[/quote]

Just like Benny Hynn heals people on my TV?

77

[quote]ToShinDo wrote:
Oh, if anyone is curious about that quiz, here’s the URL:

http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=10907

I don’t think it necessarily means much, but it’s entertaining.[/quote]

Interesting quiz (especially the 434% result I got, it’s a miracle!), very eye-opening in some regards. My breakdown went;
71% Islam
71% Agnostic (tie)
54% Christian
46% Atheist
46% Judaist
146% “trace religions”

Technically, I would refer to myself as a deist. I agree with the cosmological argument as well as the teleological argument (NOT applied to biology). Reading some of the posts like Zap’s, some of FightinIrish’s posts, I’m beginning to think that I’m not the only one who fits the description of “agnostic awaiting (unbiased) proof”.

78

[quote]lucasa wrote:
ToShinDo wrote:
Oh, if anyone is curious about that quiz, here’s the URL:

http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=10907

I don’t think it necessarily means much, but it’s entertaining.

Interesting quiz (especially the 434% result I got, it’s a miracle!), very eye-opening in some regards. My breakdown went;
71% Islam
71% Agnostic (tie)
54% Christian
46% Atheist
46% Judaist
146% “trace religions”

Technically, I would refer to myself as a deist. I agree with the cosmological argument as well as the teleological argument (NOT applied to biology). Reading some of the posts like Zap’s, some of FightinIrish’s posts, I’m beginning to think that I’m not the only one who fits the description of “agnostic awaiting (unbiased) proof”.[/quote]

Well, I think that it shows how much you “agree” with the stated religion/belief system. So if you answered “totally agree” to every question, each one would show up as 100%.
But it does make you think, doesn’t it?

79

You scored as Satanism.

Your beliefs most closely resemble those of Satanism! Before you scream, do a bit of research on it. To be a Satanist, you don’t actually have to believe in Satan. Satanism generally focuses upon the spiritual advancement of the self, rather than upon submission to a deity or a set of moral codes. Do some research if you immediately think of the satanic cult stereotype. Your beliefs may also resemble those of earth-based religions such as paganism.

agnosticism 54%
Satanism 54%
Christianity 50%
atheism 46%
Islam 46%
Hinduism 42%
Buddhism 38%
Paganism 33%
Judaism 33%

80

I am an atheist, and I have my reasons.

But unlike all the vocal atheists, I am not anti religion. It seems convenient for people to blame religion for what people do. That is like blaming society, or Wal-Mart for all the ills of earth.

Vocal atheists embarrass me quite a bit, and I am convinced they are not true atheists, but people who are pissed off with God. (They prayed for a pony and didn’t get one.)

I don’t blame religion for anything, and there is so much good people do in the name of religion. To just look at the bad, especially if you have to go way back in time to do it, sounds more like hate speech. You cannot forget Stalin ran an atheist country, and how many people did he kill?

I have heard people argue against teaching abstinence to children because it is a religious belief. How fucking stupid is that?

I cannot prove the nonexistence of God, yet I cannot see any proof either, and any claim seems to fail logic. But what evidence I see leads me to find lack of proof in the deity religions I have looked into. Now western religion talks of faith, so the followers do not require proof, just the faith.

Follow the religion that best supports you. Even if it turns out to be wrong, if it was a benefit to your life, it was worth it.

Now about that test, I rated highest in Satanism and Islam. WTF?

I think there is a better thought out test here:

Click on the beliefomatic link to the right.