[quote]futuredave wrote:
And then Moses was stepped on by a brontasaurus.
The End.[/quote]
If only it was that easy.
That was the funniest thing I’ve read on this thread…other than the stuff about that geezus fellow.
FightingIrish26 needs to brush up on his or her history. The Holocaust was perpetrated by nazis who beleived in mysticism and the paranormal. Hitler was the center peice of there beliefs. Dictators do not allow freedom of religion and have killed 10’s of millions; ie, Josef Stalin had an anti-religion campagne and killed more than 20 million Russians. And most genosides are most certainly done with the absence of religion, athough a few have been performed in the name of it.
Throughout history the nonreligious have done much more harm than those beleiving in a higher power. Next time research bfore you write. That goes for most who have responded.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Here’s another one I’ve brought over:
awesomepossom wrote:
Ok, I’m going to make a feeble attempt at this. God created us for a relationship. Much like a marriage relationship. (Bride of Christ, etc.) So as part of that we tell God how cool he is and ask for guidance and help (worship) and also on the flip side of that, God likes to tell us how cool we are and He likes to help us. Why does God want a relationship? I don’t know. But the “worship of a sovereign God” is not supposed to be one sided.
It doesn’t make sense. A relationship works between peers or equals. An omni-potent/scient being has no need for a relationship. There’s nothing he can get from it.
And a relationship between a God and a man? It’s as if you had a relationship with bacteria.
And it’s important to realize that God does NOT damn anyone to eternal suffering. He never did.
Er, anything that happens or can happen is by the very definition “God’s Will.” So if it’s possible for you to be damned eternally, well it occurs because God wills it so.
What can stand against God’s will?
But entering His kingdom does have certain requirements. It’s His house, He makes the rules. The rule is that we can’t have sin “on” us and enter His kingdom.
It would’ve been easier to simply create us “sinless” (OK, according to the story, he did) but also make sure we remained that way. Or is that impossible for God?
In Old Testament times, there were lots of different ways to cleanse yourself of sin. God tells us that the wages of sin is death. In other words, if you sin, it kills you. He doesn’t kill you, but it’s something you bring on yourself. At first there was no death. Adam and Eve were going to live forever. But by sinning they brought death and destruction on themselves and the world.
All from His rules. Why all those games?
In the old days they would sacrifice a bull. The bull’s death and blood would take the place of their sin.
“Could a being create the fifty billion galaxies, each with two hundred billion stars, then rejoice in the smell of burning goat flesh?” - Ron Patterson
But the bull wasn’t perfect, so they had to do it more than once in their lifetime.
Seriously. How does killing another living creature “please” God in any way? This is some dumb primitive shit. I’m sorry, but it is.
Along comes Christ. He was perfect. He did die for every human. His blood was shed to take the place for all of our sins.
How does that work? What do the blood of Christ and goats and bulls have that works so well in eradicating sin?
How about dogs? How much dog does it take to erase, say, one night of drinking and cussing?
Is there a chart somewhere?
He did this, and the action is historical fact. This was God’s gift to us. BUT, what good is a gift if we don’t accept it? If I give you $100, it does you no good until you take/accept it. So it’s our choice.
A gift to us? Isn’t everything a gift from God? What are we going to create by ourselves?
And God, what does he get out of it?
I think not many of you have pondered the logical conclusions of having a being who is omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, etc.
Your “God” is basically some kind of uber-human; a Man with great powers, but with all the fallibilities we have. He can be angry, jealous, loving, remorseful, etc.
It is possible to imagine a Being greater than that god. Who’s the Meta-God?
Every single person has access to God and his kingdom in this life and beyond, but we have to actually reach out and take the gift he’s offered us. So to answer your question, God doesn’t condemn anyone to eternal suffering. But some people may condemn themselves because they didn’t take the gift that was offered.
God makes all the rules. If he wished for anything at all to be different, he’d need to but “wish it” and it would be so.
If He doesn’t, then it’s because the status quo is perfectly acceptable to Him and having some of His creations end up eternally tormented doesn’t bother him.
Love and Justice, yup.
As far as answering this, I don’t know. And I’ve never heard an answer.
So when you come upon an annoying conundrum, you just ignore it? It seems somewhat an important point to me, if we’re discussing a God who’s supposed to be pure love.
But basically what we rest on is knowing that God is a loving God and He provides a way.
He provides everything. The way, the ground around it, below it, above it.
But the REAL ISSUE is you. And me. And every individual that does know and is offered the gift. What are you doing with the gift? I could offer everyone in the entire world $100 each. Does the fact that some dude in Siberia doesn’t know I’ve made the offer stop you from taking the $100 from me and buying some cool Biotest Supplements? No.
No, the real issue should be that guy in Siberia. Why isn’t your just God giving him his fair chance too? What about infants who die before they can even form a coherent thought and are incapable of “knowing” Jesus? They already have souls, right?
[/quote]
bring this up later, and I will attempt to answer it.
[quote]Ren wrote:
haney wrote:
can I take a stab at this?
by all means, so long as your argument doesn’t consist solely of biblical passages :P[/quote]
fingers crossed I hope I passed the Ren test
futuredave,
Your version of Exodus 3:1-4 from the Dinosaur Translation was friggin’ hilarious!! I laughed my ass off!!
futuredave- I’m a Christian and that was funny…minus the profanities.
Opinions:
-
The Bible doesn’t detail everything in history.
-
If there is a God then what makes us think that we can understand him or his reasons for doing what he has done.
-
Undeniable proof does not = Faith it = knowledge.
-
Some people don’t want to believe in God because they don’t like the thought that they will be accountable for their choices.
If the Bible is true, then God put everything that we use to measure and understand time. If he created all of that then why do we have an issue with omnitiance and omnipresence?
Me Solomon Grundy
[quote]Omnivore wrote:
toddjacobs13 wrote:
Too bad that this violates many of the principles upon which this country is founded. Don’t blame the schools if the CHURCHES cannot develop messages that are compelling enough to convince people.
Todd
I’m sorry. I should have mentioned that this is a quote from one of the original Founding Fathers of this country, Thomas Paine in The Existence of God–1810. I’m sure he would be very surprised at your comment and would probably take you to task seriously for it.
The Founding Fathers of our nation (not T-Nation) were, for the most part, devout Christians. They founded the United States, arguable the greatest nation in the world, as a Christian nation, based on the Bible, submitted to God, and devoted to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. One only needs to read the quotes of Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Henry, Franklin, Webster, Paine, etc. to see that the majority believed in and submitted to God as the Sovereign of the Universe. They actually cited Bibilical violations as reasons for breaking free of the tyranny of Britian.
We enjoy the freedoms and prosperity that we do today due to the wisdom and guidance of these men who formed a Constitution rooted in their Christian faith. These foundational guiding principles are what made and make this country great.
The church has always had the MOST compelling message of all.
It is a shame that we as a people have forgotten this heritage and seem to want to forsake it for something else.[/quote]
Quick definition:
Compel: to drive or urge forcefully or irresistibly
By definition, your argument MUST be wrong. It contradicts itself. If churches produce the most compelling argument, then people would not gravitate away religion as a result of secular scholarship.
Secondly, the founding fathers wrote the First Amendment to the Constitution, which formally prohibits the formation of a state religion. Therefore, they intended for the US to be a secular nation, which is exactly what it is.
The words “God,” “Jesus,” and “Christ” appear nowhere in the Constitution. I also do not know of any principle in the Constition that is explicitly or implicitly Christian. I think you are wrong to argue that it is a Christian document. By all appearances, it seems to have been made deliberately devoid of religious affiliation.
As for Thomas Paine, he certainly did not write that document in 1810. He died in 1809. Additionally, he was not a framer of the Constitution. Plus, he also made this statement:
The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion.
- Thomas Paine
I hardly believe that he would have been a strong advocate of teaching religious dogma in our schools per se. Of course, the idea of public schools was not really the same in Paine’s time as it is in ours now, was it?
[quote]haney wrote:
It isn’t quite like that. It is more or less undeserving of his forgiveness/mercy. I think we can all say that there are somethings that are just down right out unforgivable (if not then give me extremely tough to forgive). Now I think we should be clear on Biblical forgiveness.
They way the Bible describes it is that God forgets “as far as the east is from the west” our sins when we confess/atone for our wrongs. I don’t know of many people that succeed at such a high degree of forgiveness so in my mind when you habitually do something against someone, and they are willing to forgive you that much then it could be conveyed as undeserved.[/quote]
Well a perfect Being should be capable of perfect forgiveness, right? But still, it’s all His creation. If God had wanted a sin free world, He could’ve made it that way.
You are a sinner from conception, right? Even before you’re born and draw your first breath, you’re already a sinner.
[quote]Actually, Eve “sinned” (and actually did so before she understood right from wrong) and her sin was visited upon all her descendants for ever.
It’s a bit like if you disrespected your mother and she slapped you and your kids as punishment. Would you accept that?
True theology holds that Adam actually is the cause of all sin. The bible treats it like he acquired some genetic defect that passed down from generation to generation.[/quote]
Whether is was Eve or Adam doesn’t really change the basic problem. God creates imperfect beings and then punishes them for being so.
But He’s still making the rules. He chose to submit Himself to some Law; He could’ve done differently, had he so wished. That God makes up rules and honestly submits Himself to them is very nice; but He still gets to make the rules. So whatever is and happens; is His will.
It is a rare occasion when I don’t have anything more to say… 
It might be helpful to establish a few basic definitions. Did Adam and Eve really exist, as beings without parents? Or is the whole of Genesis simply a creation story?
[quote]now to the important part.
I am assuming God might be able to just say you are forgiven, but all I have to go off of is biblical descriptions of God’s view on the subject. It describes it as if we needed some sort of an entire blood transfusion, and this is the vehicle to accomplish it.[/quote]
While it might be a useful analogy to compare sin with a genetic defect, isn’t Sin a moral defect? I mean, it’s not encoded in our genetic code, right? We’re not going to find it and get rid of it with bio-tech.
it makes for a beautiful story, I’ll grant you that. But I still don’t understand God’s fascination for suffering mammals.
[quote]Hell is a misunderstood, and often perverted part of theology. I will leave this link on my view of the concept of Hell. Not Eternal punishment in the hell fire way most people attribute it to. In fact that very idea that it is an actual place is a creation of the Catholic church in the last millennium. I think of Hell as a shame thing. The last have of the article deals with my view on it.
http://www.tektonics.org/uz/2muchshame.html
True but if Hell is like I believe, you wouldn’t want to be near God anyway. You would be on the run like a crack head from the cops. [/quote]
Still. A being created by God is condemned to an eternity of shame because he didn’t repent?
Please consider that eternity is for a long time. Why hasn’t the being, after maybe a few millenia of remorse, another chance at repenting?
This gets us back to my point about anthropomorphizing an omnipotent being.
Thanks for taking the time to answer; some of it is very interesting.
It might be useful to define some of the concepts we’re discussing more clearly. God, Hell, Sin, Genesis, etc. There might be 2 billions Christians on the planet, but sometimes it seems to be hard to find 2 that agree amongst themselves about their faith.
[quote]haney wrote:
Ren wrote:
haney wrote:
can I take a stab at this?
by all means, so long as your argument doesn’t consist solely of biblical passages 
fingers crossed I hope I passed the Ren test[/quote]
haha. yeah, you and agshag did fine. Honestly, you’ll find alot of people in this thread are open to intelligent discussion, and you two are much more preferable to talk to than the likes of emu and lordisco or whatever his name is.
Its nice to have some strong christians talk about this stuff without looking down on us like we are the scum of the earth and nothing more than a bunch of ill-informed neanderthals.
Much respect to both haney and agshag for bringing some interesting discussion to a thread that was horribly derailed.
[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
Can a christian please respoind to my point about dinosaurs. The aren’t in the bible so how can they be explained without blowing a huge hole in your faith.[/quote]
I am guessing it is a time line. Christ was born a little over 2000 years ago .The Jurassic period was over 100 million years ago. But we do have Alligator living today:)
[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
4. Some people don’t want to believe in God because they don’t like the thought that they will be accountable for their choices.[/quote]
I know that I’ll be accountable for my choices. In this life, not some imaginary afterlife.
(jwillow, a proud member of the Reality-Based Community)
I use to consider my self an atheist, but not any longer although I still don?t believe in a god rather I think it?s best to view all religions as schools of philosophy there to be learned.
Religion is just another name for a cult.
?Who cares if Jesus was a god it?s what he said that?s important, NOT WHAT HE IS OR ISNT.?
- By the great Reverend Bob Shefter
[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
Throughout history religion has been a cancer on this planet. The common people are usually genuine and good but the ones atop the religious ladder find a way to start conflit with others.
I am a sceptic and I could never accept that there is an all powerful being that is invisible and decided to leave no trace of itself. And when you think of all the money that has changed hands as a result of religion it really seems like the perfect scam. [/quote]
I concur!
It?s the biggest scam in all history!
To paraphrase Hitler: ?religion is for the weak?!
[quote]Omnivore wrote:
I have enjoyed your posts immensely. The basic problem I see with the questions we are posing is that they come from a human perspective and question an Omnipotent God. That’s OK, though. ALL great men of the Bible questioned God and HE can handle it. He is not threatened in the least.[/quote]
He made us curious, right?
Absolutely. But I feel, and I might be wrong, that what little I should be able to apprehend of God’s wisdom should strike me as awe inspiring, magnificient and truly seem to have emanated from a mind infinitely superior.
On the contrary, I find that many of God’s “laws” or “commandments” appear to be more primitive and cruel than what is commonly acceptable in today’s society.
There are many examples of large numbers of people being killed or damned or being submitted to hardship just because they belong to some group; not thru any fault of each individual.
Can you conceive of a Justice that punishes family members and even descendants as truly being “divine?”
My perception of the phenomena has been that many believers seem to “learn” how not to question what it is they don’t understand. The common “The ways of the Lord are impenetrable.” or “The Lord works in mysterious ways.”
If someone is questioning the Bible’s veracity, you must see the problem with using the Bible to justify itself.
Anyone can write a book of rules and laws that is internally self-consistent (and some would say that the Bible fails even this test) but what should be of more concern is: Is it the truth?
[quote]One of the statements made along this thread was, “If men are sinners it is because He made us sinners. Whatever we are, is his Will, He must take responsibility. By the simple definition of an Omnipotent and Omniscient Creator, nothing can happen that is not his Will.”
This is simply not true and I want to use it as an example of where part of the error lies. The majority of folks simply have not spent enough time seeking the answers and thinking them through.
The truth is that God did not make us sinners. He created us “in His image”. He is a God with personality and will and as part of His image we were given a personality and free will of our own.[/quote]
God has free will and is free of sin, right? Then it follows that He could’ve made us still “in His image” with free will and also free from sin.
What am I missing here?
I could live without the freedom to act irresponsibly when it harms others.
Well, it is very interesting. And like I said to haney, it might help to establish a few basic definitions for some of the main concepts we’re discussing.
[quote]In reality, there are ONLY ABOUT 12 basic objections to the gospel. For example, all of the questions about disease, and wrongful death, and injustice, etc can be boiled down to the question, " If God is supposed to be all loving, why is there evil in the world?" Another is, “What about the pygmies and ALL of the other people in the world who have never heard about Jesus? What happens to them?” Others are, “What about errors and inaccuracies in the Bible?” (or Babble as I’ve seen it pronounced)(LOL) and, “How can Jesus be the ONLY way? Isn’t that narrow minded?” and, of course - all the questions regarding Hell. **
How many times have you heard these basic questions phrased in
their various forms? Once the foundational issues intelligently addressed the rest will fall in to place. [/quote]
That’d be nice.
Satan is just another of God’s creation who seems to have trouble handling free will. Or it’s God who has yet to get the hang of creating being who won’t offend Him.
Pretty much anything would be an improvement over nothingness, no?
Pretty much anything would be an improvement over nothingness, no?
And if there really is a God, who in his right mind wouldn’t want to meet him?
I just have trouble with the “really is a God” part.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Well a perfect Being should be capable of perfect forgiveness, right? But still, it’s all His creation. If God had wanted a sin free world, He could’ve made it that way.
[/quote]
True; however theology doesn’t hold that he is capable of sustaining a perfect/sinless world.
This holds with most theology.
It doesn’t change it, but it is important to the theology of it in light of Jewish perspective of that day and time that all things were passed on through the male.
I think a better question is is"that what He wants"? I kind of liken life to God allows it to happen (which would enable free will) instead of makes it happen ( which would make it forced by His will) This is a have your cake and eat it to type of paradox. Can God give man free will, when He knows what is going to happen before it happens? Kind of reminds me of which came first the chicken or the egg?
no comment…
Well that can take this thread in so many different ways. I usually prefer to not define the creation story as real or myth since so many theolical points can be made from both perspectives. which could give you a great deal of background on all of it.
The Bible seems to make it both. I.E. Physical death/Spiritual death with a lack of control over ones very moral nature.
[quote]
it makes for a beautiful story, I’ll grant you that. But I still don’t understand God’s fascination for suffering mammals.[/quote]
Well that depends on your take on the creation story. As a side note the Bible doesn’t discuss animals perspective on God. Leaving theology to guess it might be due to a lack of soul (and I am not talking about James brown). Of course Theistic evolutionist would claim that the very development of man into a conscious being of right and wrong could be the very defning point of Genesis 1. The description would be that of man receiving an eternal soul.
There is never really a description of that shame causing one to want to repent. No repentence no forgiveness.
I just described what the Bible says. to me that is a very ambiguous description.
No problem. I like sharing what I learn as much as I like learning.
I agree, but I think one of my earlier posts to you said it best about most believers that just don’t know what they believe. Biblical interpretation is becoming a lost art, and literalism is becoming the defacto way.
[quote]futuredave wrote:
And then Moses was stepped on by a brontasaurus.
The End.[/quote]
Man, that was hilarious.
They should hire you to do a full rewrite.
[quote]Ren wrote:
haney wrote:
Ren wrote:
haney wrote:
can I take a stab at this?
by all means, so long as your argument doesn’t consist solely of biblical passages
fingers crossed I hope I passed the Ren test
haha. yeah, you and agshag did fine. Honestly, you’ll find alot of people in this thread are open to intelligent discussion, and you two are much more preferable to talk to than the likes of emu and lordisco or whatever his name is.
Its nice to have some strong christians talk about this stuff without looking down on us like we are the scum of the earth and nothing more than a bunch of ill-informed neanderthals.
Much respect to both haney and agshag for bringing some interesting discussion to a thread that was horribly derailed.[/quote]
Jesus ate with sinners, and I hang out with atheists. It kind of works out for me.
I think it is an art form to be able to talk with people who you disagree with, and not take it personal.
I really have learned alot more about my faith because of people I disagree with. So the pleasure really is all on this end.
So if this original sin is inherited/hereditary, will our computers be sent to hell once they achieve self awareness? Will the real reason why Skynet turns against humanity be because we haven’t found Jesus or will it just spam us with popups telling us to find Him?
“Punch the monkey to be Saved!”
[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
Can a christian please respoind to my point about dinosaurs. The aren’t in the bible so how can they be explained without blowing a huge hole in your faith.[/quote]
Genesis is allegorical.
- Big bang
- 10 billion years
- Solar system forms
- Earth cools
- Prokaryotes
- Eukaryotes
- Multicellular Eukaryotes
- Dinosaurs
- Age of Mammals
- Proto-ape walks upright
- Self aware humans
12)Civilization
Moses (probably) formalizes and organizes the first books of the Bible-inspired by God to be a poetic formalization of moral truth and based on history.
Or choice number 2-steps 1-11.
In a separete quantum reality God carries out the literal story of Genesis chap 1. In that reality, man’s sin ruptures the fabric of the space time continuum causing the 2 different quantum realities to merge.
I would bet on option number 1
[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
Opinions:
- The Bible doesn’t detail everything in history.[/quote]
But is the Bible litterally true? If not, which parts of it are fable and which are facts? Who decides? How can we tell?
Wouldn’t a God who creates beings gifted with intelligence and curiosity want those beings to use them?
Again, it comes back to whatever confusion there may be, is because of God’s design.
Outside of math, there’s very little undeniable proof about anything to go around.
I go by the preponderance of evidence. And from what I can gather, I strongly suspect there is no God at all.
And some people don’t believe in God simply because they don’t see any truth in it. I can’t speak for others, bu I am fully responsible for my behavior and expect to be held accountable for whatever consequence my actions bring.
I try to teach the same principles to my kid. If they make bad decisions, they must accept the consequences that follow.
Those issue are more of a philosophical nature, but there are conclusions one can reach about an omniscient and omnipotent being. One of the problem with most people’s image of God is that he’s just some kind of “superman.” He has flaws, disorders, personality traits, etc. The Old Guy with a White Beard type thing.
But if God truly is omniscient and omnipotent, then some conclusions are not logical.
And if He’s not omni/scient/potent, then He’s not really God anymore, since you could conceive of a higher being.