[quote]agshag wrote:
If I may, one more question along the same lines. Are you familiar with the term “the Watcher?” It is essentially the part of you that is not your body and not your mind. It is the part of you that can actually sit and watch your mind work. Try it and you will see what I am talking about. Simply take a few minutes to observe your thoughts. OK, so who is doing the observing?
[/quote]
Is it some kind of web cam?
[quote]agshag wrote:
There are a number of sources outside of the New Testament that confirm that Jesus did in fact walk the earth. These are both literary and archealogical.
[/quote]
I’m sorry. The “just because I said so” argument doesn’t work. Can you site both the literary and archealogical evidence that “confirm” Jesus (which is a pagan name) walked the earth?
Can a christian please respoind to my point about dinosaurs. The aren’t in the bible so how can they be explained without blowing a huge hole in your faith.
[quote]agshag wrote:
If I may, one more question along the same lines. Are you familiar with the term “the Watcher?” It is essentially the part of you that is not your body and not your mind.[/quote]
I can’t find that part.
I am. Is that a trick question?
I didn’t mean to imply it was just cause I said so…I assumed this was mostly common knowledge and could be found relatively easily. Anyway, here are a few of the more common sources:
Reporting on Emperor Nero’s decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. .
Josephus, a first century Jewish historian. mentions Jesus on two occasions in his Jewish Antiquities. The second, less revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one “James” by the Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, says Josephus, was “the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ.”{
This is also noteworthy because a recent dig has found the grave of this James in which his headstone read the same thing.
I am sure there are more, but almost all historians agree that the man Jesus actually walked the earth.
[quote]Buttered_Corn wrote:
agshag wrote:
There are a number of sources outside of the New Testament that confirm that Jesus did in fact walk the earth. These are both literary and archealogical.
I’m sorry. The “just because I said so” argument doesn’t work. Can you site both the literary and archealogical evidence that “confirm” Jesus (which is a pagan name) walked the earth?
[/quote]
[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
Can a christian please respoind to my point about dinosaurs. The aren’t in the bible so how can they be explained without blowing a huge hole in your faith.[/quote]
I wish they’d make a Bible movie with dinosaurs. That would rock.
Something like the Ben-Hur chariot race, but with T-Rex from Jurassic Park in hot pursuit.
[quote]Omnivore wrote:
? It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.?
? The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.? [/quote]
We have places that teach these things: they are called church and sunday school and hebrew school and mecca
[quote]agshag wrote:
-If God is the Creator, why would he create beings undeserving of his love and forgiveness?
I have read most if not all of the Bible and can find no mention of this. I think this is simply a human ideal of the whole worthiness/unworthiness thing. There is a 14th century Franciscan named John Duns Scotus that taught that God would have become man even if Adam had not sinned, since He willed that in Christ humanity and the world should be united with Himself by the closest possible bond. I think this rings pretty true.
-Actually, Eve “sinned” (and actually did so before she understood right from wrong) and her sin was visited upon all her descendants for ever.
I think this is simply a case of looking only at the English translation with the term “Original” Sin. The Germans have a much better word for it in that they call it “Inherited” sin. If you look at as simply the baggage that we hand down to our kids because of our own wounds, then it makes more sense.
Something else that you have to keep in mind is that we are trying to use words to express divine concepts which is all but impossible. So Yes, even as a devout Christian it does ring weird to me.
-Why would an omniscient being create anything, anyway? He won’t learn from us (He knows all), He can’t even be entertained by us (since He already knows everything that will happen before it happens)… so, why even bother?
One word…love. That is the only thing that we can truly give back to God that is ours.
I would like to thank each of you who have responded to my posts with your thoughtful answers. I am not so arrogant as to think that I will not learn something from each of you. One thing I applaud each of you on is the fact that you have thought your belief system through.
[/quote]
Very excellent post
[quote]Omnivore wrote:
The Founding Fathers of our nation (not T-Nation) were, for the most part, devout Christians. They founded the United States, arguable the greatest nation in the world, as a Christian nation, based on the Bible, submitted to God, and devoted to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. One only needs to read the quotes of Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Henry, Franklin, Webster, Paine, etc. to see that the majority believed in and submitted to God as the Sovereign of the Universe. They actually cited Bibilical violations as reasons for breaking free of the tyranny of Britian.
We enjoy the freedoms and prosperity that we do today due to the wisdom and guidance of these men who formed a Constitution rooted in their Christian faith. These foundational guiding principles are what made and make this country great.
[/quote]
There are so many things wrong with your assertion that America is a Christian nation. I’ll give you that the majority of the founding fathers were devout christians, but your position that the United States is a “Christian Nation” is dealt a serious blow by the fact that, as early as 1797, the government specifically said that it is not a Christian Nation. The occasion was a peace and trade agreement between the United States and Muslim leaders in North Africa. The negotiations were conducted under the authority of George Washington, and the final document, known as the Treaty of Tripoli, was approved of by the Senate under the leadership of John Adams, the second president. This treaty states, without equivocation, that the “…Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion…”
Contrary to the claims made by some from the Religious Right, America was not founded as a Christian Nation which was then later undermined by godless liberals and humanists. Just the opposite is the case, actually. The Constitution is a godless document and the government of the United States was set up as a formally secular institution. It has, however, been undermined by well-meaning Christians who have sought to subvert its secular principles and framework for the sake of this or that “good cause,” usually in the interest of promoting this or that religious doctrine.
Taken from http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/cs/blcsm_gov_xiannation.htm
[quote]pookie wrote:
paul bunyan wrote:
Can a christian please respoind to my point about dinosaurs. The aren’t in the bible so how can they be explained without blowing a huge hole in your faith.
I wish they’d make a Bible movie with dinosaurs. That would rock.
Something like the Ben-Hur chariot race, but with T-Rex from Jurassic Park in hot pursuit.
[/quote]
LMAO. BRILLIANT.
[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
Can a christian please respoind to my point about dinosaurs. The aren’t in the bible so how can they be explained without blowing a huge hole in your faith.[/quote]
They are not in my Handbook of Chemistry and Physics nor are they in An Army at Dawn (a history of the WWII North Africa campaigns).
Does that mean both of those books are invalid?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
paul bunyan wrote:
Can a christian please respoind to my point about dinosaurs. The aren’t in the bible so how can they be explained without blowing a huge hole in your faith.
They are not in my Handbook of Chemistry and Physics nor are they in An Army at Dawn (a history of the WWII North Africa campaigns).
Does that mean both of those books are invalid?[/quote]
Yes, return for refund IMMEDIATELY.
[quote]agshag wrote:
-If God is the Creator, why would he create beings undeserving of his love and forgiveness?
I have read most if not all of the Bible and can find no mention of this. I think this is simply a human ideal of the whole worthiness/unworthiness thing. There is a 14th century Franciscan named John Duns Scotus that taught that God would have become man even if Adam had not sinned, since He willed that in Christ humanity and the world should be united with Himself by the closest possible bond. I think this rings pretty true.[/quote]
It doesn’t answer the question. And I still can’t find sense in it.
Just to be sure: God is omniscient and omnipotent, right? The whole “a being such a with no higher being can be conceived off?”
Because I find that problematic. Such a being is extremely difficult to conceive of. You cannot anthropomorphize your feelings/emotions/etc unto him, since you’re not omnipotent nor, more importantly, omniscient.
An omniscient being, by definition, already knows all there is to know. He cannot be curious; he cannot be surprised; he doesn’t forget, heck he knows the future before it happens.
Why would such a being wish for a relationship with a frail, mortal, imperfect creature?
[quote]-Actually, Eve “sinned” (and actually did so before she understood right from wrong) and her sin was visited upon all her descendants for ever.
I think this is simply a case of looking only at the English translation with the term “Original” Sin. The Germans have a much better word for it in that they call it “Inherited” sin. If you look at as simply the baggage that we hand down to our kids because of our own wounds, then it makes more sense. [/quote]
Not to me, it doesn’t. Where the justice in punishing all of Eve and Adam’s descendent for Eve’s transgression?
Couldn’t God have made a better Eve so that we wouldn’t be stuck in this sin crap? I mean, it is his design, right? Why are we paying for his imperfect Eve?
The ways of the Lord are impenetrable. Yup, I get that a lot. What I’d like to know is why how all these “Divine Concept” come out looking so primitive and dumb.
I would expect that what little understanding I might have of the Wisdom of God would appear magnificient; that one would “of course, how else could it be.” Instead we get burned goat and nailed sons.
[quote]-Why would an omniscient being create anything, anyway? He won’t learn from us (He knows all), He can’t even be entertained by us (since He already knows everything that will happen before it happens)… so, why even bother?
One word…love. That is the only thing that we can truly give back to God that is ours.[/quote]
So, God needs love? Why? Loneliness? Insecurity? Again, projecting human needs onto an omniscient being makes no sense.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Does that mean both of those books are invalid?[/quote]
Only if those book propose to be an accurate historical depiction of the 6000 year old world since it’s creation.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
paul bunyan wrote:
Can a christian please respoind to my point about dinosaurs. The aren’t in the bible so how can they be explained without blowing a huge hole in your faith.
They are not in my Handbook of Chemistry and Physics nor are they in An Army at Dawn (a history of the WWII North Africa campaigns).
Does that mean both of those books are invalid?[/quote]
No because those books don’t make extreme claims that can be disproven by the existance of dinosaurs.
[quote]pookie wrote:
If God is the Creator, why would he create beings undeserving of his love and forgiveness?
[/quote]
It isn’t quite like that. It is more or less undeserving of his forgivness/mercy. I think we can all say that there are somethings that are just down right out unforgivable (if not then give me extremely tough to forgive). Now I think we should be clear on Biblical forgiveness.
They way the Bible describes it is that God forgets “as far as the east is from the west” our sins when we confess/atone for our wrongs. I don’t know of many people that succeed at such a high degree of forgiveness so in my mind when you habitually do something against someone, and they are willing to forgive you that much then it could be conveyed as undeserved.
[quote]
The Bible says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Actually, Eve “sinned” (and actually did so before she understood right from wrong) and her sin was visited upon all her descendants for ever.
It’s a bit like if you disrespected your mother and she slapped you and your kids as punishment. Would you accept that?[/quote]
True theology holds that Adam actually is the cause of all sin. The bible treats it like he aquired some genetic defect that passed down from generation to generation.
[quote]
If men are sinners it is because He made us sinners. Whatever we are, is his Will, He must take responsibility. By the simple definition of an Omnipotent and Omniscient Creator, nothing can happen that is not his Will.[/quote]
I think this is the hardest concept to teach about theology, and by far the hardest to accept. You have to think of this as a closed system that God has put Himself in subjection to. Free will by design would mean that God can’t control the actions of men. So all powerful part seems to be true, but God would have put himself under a certain law for a time. Since we hold that God is just, He wouldn’t violate His law.
I am sure you will have more to say about this. I don’t blame you I sometimes get lost in it myself.
Well lets leave the apple out of this since you think the whole genesis is a fable. Lets say it might be considered just symbolic of our sinful nature, and distance between God.
now to the important part.
I am assuming God might be able to just say you are forgiven, but all I have to go off of is biblical descriptions of God’s view on the subject. It describes it as if we needed some sort of an entire blood transfusion, and this is the vehicle to accomplish it. It also describes it as God’s plea to the masses “I will give the best I have so that all may live”. Self sacrifice is never considered cruel, and since this is the description we receive (unless you are don’t prescribe to the trinity).
Hell is a misunderstood, and often perverted part of theology. I will leave this link on my view of the concept of Hell. Not Eternal punishment in the hell fire way most people attribute it to. In fact that very idea that it is an actual place is a creation of the Catholic church in the last milenium. I think of Hell as a shame thing. The last have of the article deals with my view on it.
http://www.tektonics.org/uz/2muchshame.html
True but if Hell is like I believe, you wouldn’t want to be near God anyway. You would be on the run like a crack head from the cops.
He didn’t. He created free will, and free will corrupted. Why he created us is beyond me. I only know that it says all things were created for His pleasure.
[quote]
Why would an omniscient being create anything, anyway? He won’t learn from us (He knows all), He can’t even be entertained by us (since He already knows everything that will happen before it happens)… so, why even bother?
][/quote]
Once again the Bible doesn’t deal with that, nor does Christian theology.
[quote]pookie wrote:
If at least it raised interesting questions.
My problem with it is that even the basic premises are so ridiculous, I just can’t understand how any adult, capable of reading and understanding, can accept any of those things. If it was a fantasy novel (well, it is, but if it was marketed as such) the critics would pan it as being inconsistent and silly with unbelievable characters.[/quote]
Honestly. I think if the bible is actually God’s word, then he’s got some serious problems coming up with a plot that makes coherent sense.
“Here, I’ll sacrifice my son for you so that you’ll be absolved of all the sins you commmitted, which I set the rules for…”
It’s like a math problem that’s so complex I can’t understand it, except the opposite. It makes so little sense that my brain just refuses to contemplate it.
Scripture: “The lord is benevolent, wrathful and forgiving.”
Brain: “Hmmm, you’re on your own with this one.”
[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
Can a christian please respoind to my point about dinosaurs. The aren’t in the bible so how can they be explained without blowing a huge hole in your faith.[/quote]
It is debatable so to answer your question no one can list anything other than what has been posted.
No it doesn’t blow a huge hole in the faith because
some believe in theistic evolution ( God put the car and drive and then watched it go.)
It lists almost no animals by name or description before the flood, and Job is the only book that the date/time frame of its writing is just a big flat out unknown with out even a guess on its origin.
It isn’t required. The Bible doesn’t deal with animals for the most part, it is more concerned with man’s relationship with God.
[quote]pookie wrote:
JPBear wrote:
campdirector wrote:
Why would a God who is perfect create man just so man should spend all of his time showering God with praise?
Why does he need us to worship him?
And if he loves us so much like the Bible tells us, why would he condemn us to eternal suffering in hell if we don’t do everything according to his will?
Why would he do that?!?
If God is the Creator, why would he create beings undeserving of his love and forgiveness?
Why? Couldn’t He just have said “Mankind - You Are Forgiven Your Sin?.”
Doesn’t the whole thing ring weird to you?
Where’s the forgiveness?
Why did God create sinners if he finds them so abhorrent?
Why would an omniscient being create anything, anyway?[/quote]
Pookie,
I have enjoyed your posts immensely. The basic problem I see with the questions we are posing is that they come from a human perspective and question an Omnipotent God. That’s OK, though. ALL great men of the Bible questioned God and HE can handle it. He is not threatened in the least.
Human reasoning is finite, it’s limited. The mind of God has no such limitation. Does it stand to reason that HE might have a way of doing things, or an ultimate purpose that is beyond our comprehension?
It is so common as to be proverbial. Many a man such as yourself speaks out against these things as he is wrestling to wrap his mind around them. Later, the very energy spent to disprove the things of God become a passion to proclaim the light that has been discovered.
ANY and ALL of your theological questions can be answered. Whether you believe or accept the answers as legitimate is another matter. Please forgive those who simply resort to quoting Scripture. There was a day when that was enough because everyone recognized the authority of Scripture. That time has long since past.
One of the statements made along this thread was, “If men are sinners it is because He made us sinners. Whatever we are, is his Will, He must take responsibility. By the simple definition of an Omnipotent and Omniscient Creator, nothing can happen that is not his Will.”
This is simply not true and I want to use it as an example of where part of the error lies. The majority of folks simply have not spent enough time seeking the answers and thinking them through.
The truth is that God did not make us sinners. He created us “in His image”. He is a God with personality and will and as part of His image we were given a personality and free will of our own. That free will gives us the ability to accept or to reject Him. That’s what you really want, isn’t it? Freedom, the ability to choose, a choice in the matter. A loving God has given you that.
Why can’t an Omnipotent, (All-Powerful) Omniscient (All-Knowing) Creator allow things to happen that are not His will?
I do not want to make a mistake by improperly attributing quotes or questions to the wrong individuals on this post so I will stop here BUT I would welcome the opportunity to address specific questions. I love to dialogue about this as much as about muscle.
In reality, there are ONLY ABOUT 12 basic objections to the gospel. For example, all of the questions about disease, and wrongful death, and injustice, etc can be boiled down to the question, " If God is supposed to be all loving, why is there evil in the world?" Another is, “What about the pygmies and ALL of the other people in the world who have never heard about Jesus? What happens to them?” Others are, “What about errors and inaccuracies in the Bible?” (or Babble as I’ve seen it pronounced)(LOL) and, “How can Jesus be the ONLY way? Isn’t that narrow minded?” and, of course - all the questions regarding Hell. **
How many times have you heard these basic questions phrased in
their various forms? Once the foundational issues intelligently addressed the rest will fall in to place.
**Hell, by the way, was never created as a place for MAN to go. It is a prison for Satan and his demons where thy willl ultimately be punished. Heaven is available to ANYONE who wants it (the Bible does teach that God doesn’t want anyone to perish) but if you don’t want anything to do with God then I can’t imagine you would much like it there. God doesn’t SEND anyone to hell. That is simply not true. Anyone can choose to go there (hell) if they prefer to spend their eternity in a place where God is not.
I think if dinosaurs were mentioned in the bible, it would be more than some vague description about a behemoth. It would be something like this:
Exodus 3:1-4
"Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock back to the deserts and came to Horeb, the mountain of God and… HOLY FUCKING SHIT THERE WAS A DINOSAUR AND IT ATE THE FUCKING FLOCK – JUST RIPPED IT ALL TO FUCKING SHREDS AND GRABBED SOME OF THE SHEPHERDS AND RIPPED THEIR FUCKING HEADS OFF AND WAS TOSSING THEIR GUTS AROUND LIKE FUCKING SPEGHETTI AND THERE WAS FUCKING BLOOD AND GUTS AND MOSES WAS VOMITING ALL OVER HIMSELF HE WAS SO GROSSED OUT AND THEN A FUCKING PTERYDACTL PICKED UP HIS DAUGHTER AND CARRIED HER OFF AND OH, GOD, THE HUMANITY! THE HUMANITY!
And later an angel of the lord appeared unto Moses and said, “Verily, where are the sacrifices the lord god hath commanded of you?”
And Moses said, “The fucking dinosaurs ate them! Look at me, I’ve got blood all over my fucking robe, PLUS I shit on myself I was so freaked out! If you ask me, this whole dinosaur/man living together thing was just bad planning.”
And then Moses was stepped on by a brontasaurus.
The End.