T-Nation Atheists

[quote]Gunitgansta wrote:
Bro, from a theology point of view, Man and Angels are the two creations that possess free will and are capable of committing sins. Some theologists call them free agents.

Unfortunately they all rebeled against God (Satan used to be an angel).[/quote]

You see, that right there makes no sense.

God, being supposedly omniscient, would’ve known beforehand that his free agents would rebel. By definition, He could not “not know.”

Being omnipotent, he could’ve made free agents that would never rebel and all would be great. By definition, he can’t have been “unable” to do so.

So either he’s not omniscient and omnipotent (and then He gets to be subject to a Being greater than Him) or he simply doesn’t exist, which Occam’s Razor tells us is the most likely possibility.

[quote]CaptainLogic wrote:
haney wrote:
orion wrote:
Even if all you “theists” are right and that logically you cannot deny that there might be a god, that is still very very far away from “10 commandments/messiah/trinity” Jehova.

True but it does take away the “I use logic to not believe” argument.

Haney,

Do you want someone to lay out a logical argument for not believing in God? I’ve already mentioned that an omniscient being who knows how he will judge someone before even creating them seems pretty non-sensical. [/quote]

First off you are taking one view of God and trying to use it to debate all views of God.

Secondly it is only non-sensical to those who don’t understand the frame work in which such an action is possible. Think about it, even you a none omniscient being know certain things that will happen before they happen, but that doesn’t stop you from letting those things happen. does that mean you are non-sensical?

[quote]
Also, since there is no actual evidence for his existence, why is it not logical to assert he doesn’t exist? [/quote]

Please lay it out for me.

As DPH corrected my poor choice of wording it is a logical fallacy.

[quote]haney wrote:
DPH wrote:
haney wrote:
and in logic taking the negative is defying logic?

what do you mean by ‘defying logic’? do you mean not using the rules of logic?

what do you mean by ‘taking the negative’?

I don’t see it in the list of formal logic rules…do you?

propositional calculus: Propositional calculus - Wikipedia

or perhaps you were refering to some informal fallacy:

what are you talking about?

it would be a debate form an an informal fallacy

[/quote]

huh???

what is the affirmative conclusion in the argument?

what is/are the negative premise/s?

please construct the argument that you are arguing against…

thanks!

[quote]CaptainLogic wrote:

Haney,

Do you want someone to lay out a logical argument for not believing in God? I’ve already mentioned that an omniscient being who knows how he will judge someone before even creating them seems pretty non-sensical.

Also, since there is no actual evidence for his existence, why is it not logical to assert he doesn’t exist? [/quote]

Captain,
stop stating the obvious. It doesn’t work against these brain washed religious types of humans. We can’t convince them and they have nothing to try and convince us with except “text” and some personal religious “experiences”. Are you kidding me? I mean come on… someone sees Jesus in their load stains on their sheets so it has to be true.

[quote]Gregatron wrote:
miniross wrote:
But that is the beauty. A poster on the other thread decided that his moment of conciousness on this planet was subservient to bringing more into heaven (sounds dangerously like a bomber to me).

The difference is that the poster in the christian thread wants more people to go to heaven. A bomber wants to send more infidels to hell so that the bomber earns their place in heaven with the virgins and all that shit.

We do live then die, but that is the elligence of it all, and if more people accepted this, then maybe more will get done.

Can you explain what you mean by ‘get more done’. More of what?

[/quote]

Ok, hyperbolie aside, i do feel you understand what i was getting at there, i.e. that faith led action is what is driving the individual.

As far as getting more things done, imagine the manpower that goes into going to church, temple, the haj or the like, billions of hours that could be put to some use.

A a point i say this whilst having skived a day of work, but i did see some family and in fact had a fantastic day.

That surley is a better use of time?

Any use.

[quote]Gregatron wrote:
miniross wrote:
But that is the beauty. A poster on the other thread decided that his moment of conciousness on this planet was subservient to bringing more into heaven (sounds dangerously like a bomber to me).

The difference is that the poster in the christian thread wants more people to go to heaven. A bomber wants to send more infidels to hell so that the bomber earns their place in heaven with the virgins and all that shit.

We do live then die, but that is the elligence of it all, and if more people accepted this, then maybe more will get done.

Can you explain what you mean by ‘get more done’. More of what?

[/quote]

Also, i work for fisher and paykel, and i will get them to sabotage your fridge!

Yes, lets discount these interlopers for the misguided fools that they must surley be, for commiting their life to a joke maust surley be the hardest thing to reconcile.

(bait, bait, bait)

I often feel left out because I don’t have one book to continually quote from over and over…instead I have tons of books to quote from and end up being overwhelmed by my selection.

I did post this in another thread, but just in case anyone missed it there…I figure I may as well post again.

For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can’t readily accept the God formula, the big answers don’t remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command or faith a dictum. I am my own God. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state and our education system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.
– Charles Bukowski, Life magazine

[quote]pookie wrote:
haney wrote:
(“Surrounding areas” is your added words).

What added words? Look it up, it says: “…and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof…

I take it that those “coasts thereof” are the surrounding areas. How can you be so sure of the historical accuracy of the Bible when you haven’t even read it?
[/quote]

This is what my lexicon says of the word used for caosts
“Neuter of a derivative of an apparently primary word ὅρος horos (a bound or limit); a boundary line, that is, (by implication) a frontier (region): - border, coast.”
Boarder/region of bethlehem could mean no more than the city limits. I am sure you knew that though.

I asked for for some historcial record that the NT uses that you know is wrong.

Notice I never brought up the escape from egypt in the OT. Why? because it is under heavy debate for being true. I don’t see how I am being unreasonable when I keep that kind of an open mind, but you go ahead and make me out to think something I may or may not.

[quote]
Josephus recorded a lot of trivial details about Herod and his life. How he could miss the massacre of infants, a rather unusual event, is at least worth questioning. Soldiers going around killing kids is difficult to miss. Even if you miss the secret meeting Herod might have held, you’ll probably hear from it on the streets.

But hey, in fantasy land, I guess anything goes.[/quote]

He committed all kinds of atrocities, do you think Josephus recorded all of them? I dount there were more than 10 children in such a small town under the age of 2 anyway.

I didn’t know my opinion was so important. I thought we were talking about josephus and his opinion of the facts?

[quote]
Also I would say that it is extremely doubtful that Josephus was able to record every evilthat atrocity Herod did; if he was able to I am sure that work would be significantly larger!

Yeah, let’s kill all those babies in secret. No one will notice. Shhhhh![/quote]

Well you tell me how many could have been killed, and then we can determine if it is a substantial number.

I mean if it is only a few I doubt that would get as much attention as alot of the other things he did.

[quote]DPH wrote:
haney wrote:
DPH wrote:
haney wrote:
and in logic taking the negative is defying logic?

what do you mean by ‘defying logic’? do you mean not using the rules of logic?

what do you mean by ‘taking the negative’?

I don’t see it in the list of formal logic rules…do you?

propositional calculus: Propositional calculus - Wikipedia

or perhaps you were refering to some informal fallacy:

what are you talking about?

it would be a debate form an an informal fallacy

huh???

what is the affirmative conclusion in the argument?

what is/are the negative premise/s?

please construct the argument that you are arguing against…

thanks![/quote]

here is a rough example.

The positive is God exist
Negative is God doesn’t

A typcial argument might look like this

If there is a God he would give proof that he exist, since I don’t see any proof there must not be a God.

It leaves out the possiblity for other options which is a negative fallacy.

I am personally not aguring against anything other than a dogmatic stance that God does not exist. People like buel are the reasons why I even stated it. They claim intelectual superiority, yet they don’t fall with in the constructs of the rules for debate and philosophy.

[quote]haney wrote:

First off you are taking one view of God and trying to use it to debate all views of God.
[/quote]

Sorry, are you a Christian? Is there a Christian God who is not omniscient?

It only makes me non-sensical if I don’t want those things to happen, but let them happen anyway.

I understand the framework in which it could happen. God creating the universe while knowing all that is going to happen is like me playing a chess game in which I know every single move and the end result. It is pointless.

Lay what out for you?

[quote]beaul wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

Bro, on what do you base your belief that no God or higher power exists?

I use common sense and my own free will. Along with the brain that the millions of years of evolution created.

What do religious people base their beliefs on? A book? or hope and faith that something has to exist otherwise how else do I except that when i die it will just be THE END.

Eventually religion will be phased out. It will happen though. As more people come to realize no one is watching down on them or gives a rats ass.

Religion is both good and bad. It keeps some people on track that would other wise use their human instincts to do bad things.

But some take it over the top. I feel so sorry for these people. Like the people that feel they have to quote stuff out of a book that was made up. Don’t try to push your erroneous beliefs off on me. This wasn’t directed at you Lorisco i just got off on a tangent :slight_smile:

WWJD,
beau

[/quote]

Well, I can’t answer for everyone, but I can tell you what my beliefs are based on.

To me, being an Atheist or believer in a higher power all boil down to the origin of man, the world, and the universe as we know it. When I look at amazing advances in science and all we can do with technology and then look at the science behind evolution I can’t comprehend the evolution model. I mean, if you were honest you would admit that there are major flaws with the evolutionary model that can’t be explained. There are also flaws with ID model. But it is amazing to me that for all our advances that we cannot factually demonstrate where man came from and why we are here.

If you go back far enough you still get to a place where science doesn’t help. Like, if the world started with the big bang, where did the matter come from to explode? Keep going back as far as you like and at some point there has to be a beginning. Matter can change form but not pop into existence by itself.

So based on all we know scientifically right now, going back to fundamental matter, it had to be created or put there by an outside force. So at some point there was nothing and then something. And THAT is where my faith is based. I base it on the fact that matter cannot come from nothing. It can change forms, but not pop into existence on it’s own. So this is why I know there is a God or creative force that started everything.

You may just blow this off, and that’s cool. But if you are honest you will realize that you can’t explain it either.

[quote]Mordred wrote:
I often feel left out because I don’t have one book to continually quote from over and over…instead I have tons of books to quote from and end up being overwhelmed by my selection.

I did post this in another thread, but just in case anyone missed it there…I figure I may as well post again.

For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can’t readily accept the God formula, the big answers don’t remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command or faith a dictum. I am my own God. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state and our education system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.
– Charles Bukowski, Life magazine[/quote]

exactly man, exactly. Vive la Variety and uncertai
nty

Sorry if this has been posted before but I don’t have the patience to read this whole thread. Just one thought:

Better to live life believing in God and find out there isn’t one, then to live life not believing in God and find out there is one.

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
beaul wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

Bro, on what do you base your belief that no God or higher power exists?

I use common sense and my own free will. Along with the brain that the millions of years of evolution created.

What do religious people base their beliefs on? A book? or hope and faith that something has to exist otherwise how else do I except that when i die it will just be THE END.

Eventually religion will be phased out. It will happen though. As more people come to realize no one is watching down on them or gives a rats ass.

Religion is both good and bad. It keeps some people on track that would other wise use their human instincts to do bad things.

But some take it over the top. I feel so sorry for these people. Like the people that feel they have to quote stuff out of a book that was made up. Don’t try to push your erroneous beliefs off on me. This wasn’t directed at you Lorisco i just got off on a tangent :slight_smile:

WWJD,
beau

Well, I can’t answer for everyone, but I can tell you what my beliefs are based on.

To me, being an Atheist or believer in a higher power all boil down to the origin of man, the world, and the universe as we know it. When I look at amazing advances in science and all we can do with technology and then look at the science behind evolution I can’t comprehend the evolution model. I mean, if you were honest you would admit that there are major flaws with the evolutionary model that can’t be explained. There are also flaws with ID model. But it is amazing to me that for all our advances that we cannot factually demonstrate where man came from and why we are here.

If you go back far enough you still get to a place where science doesn’t help. Like, if the world started with the big bang, where did the matter come from to explode? Keep going back as far as you like and at some point there has to be a beginning. Matter can change form but not pop into existence by itself.

So based on all we know scientifically right now, going back to fundamental matter, it had to be created or put there by an outside force. So at some point there was nothing and then something. And THAT is where my faith is based. I base it on the fact that matter cannot come from nothing. It can change forms, but not pop into existence on it’s own. So this is why I know there is a God or creative force that started everything.

You may just blow this off, and that’s cool. But if you are honest you will realize that you can’t explain it either.

[/quote]

Evolution as a component of this discussion is something of such magnificence that it does not suprise me that it is lost on you. In that i do not mean to be patronising.

What i mean is that the details of evolution in the most proper and exact terms are understood by relatively few people. danile Dennett writes on this, and writes well, but a a concept to explain to the uninniciated, it is heavy, to say the least.

The rest of us have to do witha simplified version until we can build upon that, or not. What you say is what can only be considered an oversimplification of the highest order. The volumes and probonilities in evolution are mind boggling, as seems to be the case here.

If you say that your faith is based where you have stated, then this is a simple issue of the worsip of the gap god. the gap god happilysits in those distant reaches of the unexplainable, the before the big bang, the areas where we cant currently measure. the gap god is a weak god, where sooner or later the facade of mystery will fall to information.

be wary of the gap god. he has survived for milenia, but is chased to further and further reaches of existence as we discover more. Eventually he may de disclosed as a moused in a beard.

or not…

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
If you go back far enough you still get to a place where science doesn’t help. Like, if the world started with the big bang, where did the matter come from to explode? Keep going back as far as you like and at some point there has to be a beginning. Matter can change form but not pop into existence by itself. [/quote]

The next time I see someone ask where the matter came from to explode in the big bang I am going to poke my eyes out with a stick. That was an exaggeration for you literalists out there by the way.

Seriously though, if you are going to make a cosmological argument…perhaps learn a little cosmology first?

There are possible explanations. Are they the right ones? Maybe. Maybe not. How does the fact that things can’t be easily explained necessitate the existance of a god of any kind?

Here’s the thing for me. We have advanced our understanding of the physical world considerably through the course of human history. We can explain more and more about the workings of the universe each passing year. Is it more reasonable to assume that we will eventually have an even better answer than we have today for the toughest questions…and that that answer will be within the realm of natural processes (as it has always proven to be in the past); or is it more logical to believe that a supernatural being whose existance cannot be proven is responsible for it all?

A god of the gaps is no god at all…

[quote]SpeedKills wrote:
Sorry if this has been posted before but I don’t have the patience to read this whole thread. Just one thought:

Better to live life believing in God and find out there isn’t one, then to live life not believing in God and find out there is one.[/quote]

It has been said before, but not on this thread…

… and that is a non issue.

how precisely do you find out the isn’t one (a god). in your fantasy, i am guessing that this is when you are dead.

as such, how can you fid out when you are dead? If you are dead and no god/no aferlife etc, then surley, no awarness/conciousness and as such, no awarness that you have been proved wrong…etc etc etc

This particular paradox should make you go away and scratch your head.

now, go and think, and post again when you have.

I find it interesting (and forgive me if this has already been bought up - it’s a long ass thread!), that most people claiming to be atheists simply don’t believe in the mainstream version of God ie not following mainstream Christianity or Islam or whatever.

Once you free yourself from the dogma of a church, religion, and traditional western viewpoints of what God is and start looking at things that truly matter to you and your own personal development, it becomes quite interesting.

I don’t believe in Jesus as the son of God. I don’t believe in a Christian or Muslim God. I don’t believe in traditional Heaven and Hell. But I am not an atheist.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Gregatron wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

As we’ve seen over and over again, evil takes on a different meaning depending where you go.

To some, Bush is evil, to some Clinton, to some Guevara.

Some evils are the same everywhere…
murder, rape, greed…

To look at it in a political sense, to me Bush is a murderer and greedy.

Many conservatives think Guevara was a murderer.

That’s my point. They are the same word, but their defintion changed depending on the person and their perception of the world.[/quote]

Is it just you Irish, or do all liberals look up to terrorists and murderous thugs like Guevara?

[quote]beaul wrote:

Anyone can write a book and put stupid made up sayings in it. It doesn’t make it true.

And I quote from my book “The new Testical”

Beau 5, 12:

"He who believes in stupid shit and puts faith in non-existent beings shall be royally disapointed when they die, never having lived life for themselves only for a being that didn’t exist. "

When you DIE, YOU DIE. you don’t get magical powers and walk in a “heaven” holding hands with Michael Jackson. sorry to dissapoint you.
[/quote]

2 Peter 3:3:

“First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come,scoffing and following their own evil desires.”